Ways to tell stories - HELP?

Jordygirl · Feb 20, 2010

I know it's probably pretty early to be thinking of my next novel, but I am and I have a question or two for anyone with an opinion.

What do you think of stories told in letters? I love this idea, but I keep going back to the fact that it would be awkward to include dialogue (and I use a lot of dialogue) because people don't remember EXACTLY what was said in conversations. Thoughts?

Also, in leu of letters, what would you think of a book (first person, YA, present-tense) where the MC is essentially telling the story to someone else. The book wouldn't be written conversationally (it wouldn't be all dialogue, of course), but the MC would refer to "you" quite often. As in, "I know if you were here you'd see things differently..." It's the best way I can think of to tell this story but am wondering if it would come off as gimmicky or otherwise unpleasant.

What are some other interesting ways to tell first-person YA?

Stunted · Feb 20, 2010

The second one sounds like it could be really cool, especially if right at the end, or close to it, you get to find out who the "you" is.

reenkam · Feb 20, 2010

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of novels in letters because of what you mentioned: the awkwardness of dialogue and how believable it is to have people remember so many details. I think it's possible to write a good novel in letter form, sure...but even the great ones probably lose some readers because they are epistolary.

As for your second idea, I don't think it's unusual, especially in YA, to write a book in first person present where it seems as if the MC is talking to the reader. There are lots of examples of these (sadly, I cannot remember any at the moment and have no YA with me), but I think the key is not to draw too much attention to the you so the reader takes it in stride instead of questioning it each time it's used.

You could also try having the MC thinking back on the events (first person past), either reflecting on them him/herself or 'telling' someone after the fact.

Really, there are tons of ways you could write it. Usually, when I'm having some trouble figuring out how I want to write a story, I sit down and write a couple pages in different styles. I'll use different tenses, point-of-views, tones, implied audiences, etc. Then I sit back and evaluate each of them to see which seems most natural, or which felt like the 'right' way (for the story). After doing this I can often tell how the story 'wants' to be told, if that makes sense.

suki · Feb 20, 2010

Jordygirl said:
I know it's probably pretty early to be thinking of my next novel, but I am and I have a question or two for anyone with an opinion.

What do you think of stories told in letters? I love this idea, but I keep going back to the fact that it would be awkward to include dialogue (and I use a lot of dialogue) because people don't remember EXACTLY what was said in conversations. Thoughts?

Also, in leu of letters, what would you think of a book (first person, YA, present-tense) where the MC is essentially telling the story to someone else. The book wouldn't be written conversationally (it wouldn't be all dialogue, of course), but the MC would refer to "you" quite often. As in, "I know if you were here you'd see things differently..." It's the best way I can think of to tell this story but am wondering if it would come off as gimmicky or otherwise unpleasant.

What are some other interesting ways to tell first-person YA?

The answer to both possible structures is, unfortunately, it depends on how well you execute it.

For my personal reading preferences, both a book comprised mostly of letters and a book using 2nd person (the "you" statements) would likely have to be done exceptionally well not to bug me so much I'd stop reading.

I've seen books that try using 2nd person - I've never seen one that does it well. But, this is a subjective question.

My gut instinct is that both would seem gimmicky, but I always say try it and see because it will come down to how well you do it.

ETA: First person, present tense is common, and again, must be well-executed. But actually addressing the reader, as opposed to having the reader essentially see the world through the MC's eyes/thoughts, is what annoys me. I really dislike second person where the character talks to the reader.

~suki

reenkam · Feb 20, 2010

suki said:
The answer to both possible structures is, unfortunately, it depends on how well you execute it.

For my personal reading preferences, both a book comprised mostly of letters and a book using 2nd person (the "you" statements) would likely have to be done exceptionally well not to bug me so much I'd stop reading.

I've seen books that try using 2nd person - I've never seen one that does it well. But, this is a subjective question.

My gut instinct is that both would seem gimmicky, but I always say try it and see because it will come down to how well you do it.

ETA: First person, present tense is common, and again, must be well-executed. But actually addressing the reader, as opposed to having the reader essentially see the world through the MC's eyes/thoughts, is what annoys me. I really dislike second person where the character talks to the reader.

~suki

Though, second person and what the OP described are two different things.

Second person would be: You walk into the house and see someone standing in the darkness. You know they are watching you, and you worry that you've fallen into a trap.

What the OP seemed to be describing (and correct me if I'm wrong) is: I walked into the house and saw someone standing in the darkness. You probably would have turned and left then, but I didn't. I knew they were watching me, and that it could be a trap, but I had to find out more.

Something like that. (Of course, those were both past tense, not present.)

PGK · Feb 20, 2010

Jordygirl said:
Also, in leu of letters, what would you think of a book (first person, YA, present-tense) where the MC is essentially telling the story to someone else. The book wouldn't be written conversationally (it wouldn't be all dialogue, of course), but the MC would refer to "you" quite often. As in, "I know if you were here you'd see things differently..." It's the best way I can think of to tell this story but am wondering if it would come off as gimmicky or otherwise unpleasant.

Anne Rice, "Interview With the Vampire." 98% of it is "told" in dialogue by Louis (the MC) to a reporter. "You" is used quite often and it seemed neither gimmicky nor unpleasant.

If it works, it works! Naysayers be damned.

Cyia · Feb 20, 2010

Every time I write a story in first person, I do it as though the person is telling the story to someone sitting across the table from them. It's not the same as 2nd person, and really doesn't require much use of "you" because the person across the table isn't a character in the story, just the person listening to it. It works pretty well.

Slushie · Feb 20, 2010

I've never read an Epistolary novel, but Stoker's Dracula is supposed to be a good example of how it's done.

As far as first-person present tense, I think that's fairly common in YA. There's nothing wrong with telling a story that way, and interjecting some second-person wouldn't be that jarring to me. You can tell a story any way you want; it all comes down to the execution and would only come off as a gimmick if done poorly. Kinda vague answer, but there it is.

suki · Feb 20, 2010

reenkam said:
Though, second person and what the OP described are two different things.

Second person would be: You walk into the house and see someone standing in the darkness. You know they are watching you, and you worry that you've fallen into a trap.

What the OP seemed to be describing (and correct me if I'm wrong) is: I walked into the house and saw someone standing in the darkness. You probably would have turned and left then, but I didn't. I knew they were watching me, and that it could be a trap, but I had to find out more.

Something like that. (Of course, those were both past tense, not present.)

I read the OP's post as saying, with the second idea, she'd be conversationally telling the story to the reader - ie, from her post:

"As in, "I know if you were here you'd see things differently..." It's the best way I can think of to tell this story but am wondering if it would come off as gimmicky or otherwise unpleasant.

If the "you" in that example is the reader, then it's second person.

If the you is another character, or a nondefined third party, like in Cyia's example, then, yes, you are right, it's not second person.

But any time the character starts talking directly to the reader - as in, "I know if you, reader, were here..." that's second person - even if the rest of the story is the MC in first.

It's the second person bits, where the MC sort of looks at the reader (like a TV character looking into the camera at the audience) that drive me crazy because they pull me out of the story.

ETA: But, again, like I started with, bth can work - it's execution. And so try it and see.

~suki

reenkam · Feb 20, 2010

suki said:
If the "you" in that example is the reader, then it's second person.

If the you is another character, or a nondefined third party, like in Cyia's example, then, yes, you are right, it's not second person.

But any time the character starts talking directly to the reader - as in, "I know if you, reader, were here..." that's second person - even if the rest of the story is the MC in first.

It's the second person bits, where the MC sort of looks at the reader (like a TV character looking into the camera at the audience) that drive me crazy because they pull me out of the story.

ETA: But, again, like I started with, bth can work - it's execution. And so try it and see.

~suki

You're actually referring to different things.

If the you is the reader and the narrator/main character, then it is second person narration. If the main character/narrator is a character in the book and I is the predominant pronoun with the occasional you reference, it is first person narration. Yes, the word "you" is a second-person pronoun, but the narration is still first person. You have to take into account the author's position, the narrator's position, and the reader's position. (A good example of second person narration would be Choose Your Own Adventure Books.)

If any MC looks at a reader and says "you" as a sidenote, that's called "breaking the fourth wall" (this is a TV term). I don't think this would be possible in second person narration, actually.

The way the OP described it, the you wouldn't necessarily need to be the reader at all. Like someone else said, Rice's Interview with the Vampire is one character telling another the story. The reader isn't included (except that he/she is reading).

But, narration technicalities and grammar aside, I agree with you that it all depends on execution. If something is well-executed, it can transgress a lot of preconceptions.

kuwisdelu · Feb 20, 2010

Both of those would be fine with me as a reader. Just make sure your POV character has a strong enough voice to sustain such narration. That's what will matter as far as these narrative techniques go — if the character is a natural story-teller, then his or her letters or conversational style would reflect that.

Jordygirl · Feb 20, 2010

Thank you all! To clarify: I wouldn't be telling the novel in any sort of 2nd person; it would instead be the narrator telling the story to another character (and you would know who that character is almost from the beginning, though they wouldn't actually be in any scenes.)

Lady Ice · Feb 21, 2010

reenkam said:
If any MC looks at a reader and says "you" as a sidenote, that's called "breaking the fourth wall" (this is a TV term). I don't think this would be possible in second person narration, actually.

It's actually a theatre term. When you watch a play set inside a house, the audience accept the fact that there is an invisible fourth wall and the characters act as if they were within four walls. However, in some plays a character speaks directly to the audience, thus highlighting the fact that they are watching something artificial. It can be done for many reasons- the odd aside for amusement, highlighting certain points in a political play...it's most often used in retrospective stories, where we have a narrator talking to us.
The danger is that if used too much, it takes the audience out of the story and disrupts the flow. In novels, 'breaking the fourth wall' is normally just a stylistic thing.

Read 'The Good Soldier' (this is the first page):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0199537275/?tag=absolutewrite-21

It feels like someone telling a story to someone else (the structure is non-chronological- the narrator tells us bits as he remembers them) but is not too irritating.

Bookewyrme · Feb 21, 2010

Writing novels in letter form is particularly ancient (Many ancient Greek novels were done this way) and can be really neat if done well. For a more recent example, read Sorcery and Cecilia by Patricia C. Wrede and Caroline Stevermere. It is incredibly well done, IMO, and really captures the characters of the two MC's.

Personally, I would probably prefer the letter style to the "told to another person" style, but that may just be me. And of course, anything well written would be preferable to something not well written. (I hope that all makes sense).

Ms Hollands · Feb 21, 2010

If you decide to go with it, I can recommend e by Matt Beaumont, which is entirely written as e-mails and certainly isn't stuffy. Really funny, actually. Read more about it on the link above.

Sevvy · Feb 21, 2010

I wrote a short story that was told half in letters and half in narration, with the two alternating. To solve the dialogue thing, I had my MC writing these letters to someone for the specific purpose of telling her what was going on around him. He included conversations and little details because he was telling her the "story" of his life, and he wrote a letter each day so it was easy for him to remember what was generally being said, though he would make it clear that he was telling her to the best of his memory.

shaldna · Feb 22, 2010

It can work well and be sucessful - Where Rainbows End was told in letters and emails and texts. And Dracula was told in journal entries and letter etc.

It can work.

Just make sure the letters don't start to get flat and deviod of voice.

Jamesaritchie · Feb 22, 2010

If people can't remember dialogue in letters, then they couldn't remember in in first person, either, or really in any form of past tense fiction.

There's always a forced suspension of disbelief where dialogue, or even any and all remembered events are concerned. No one remembers anything that happened in the past exactly as it happened, or ten percent of the details in any novel.

BrooklynLee · Feb 22, 2010

For another example: the novel "Portnoy's Complaint" by Philip Roth is built around the idea that the main character is telling his life story to his psychoanalyst. The main character in that book is, as a previous poster pointed out, a good storyteller, which is key. (Also whiny and self-absorbed)

One interesting thing to explore with this kind of story is that it allows you to play with the idea of the unreliable narrator. The same thing can be true with an epistolary novel. How is how the character explains events different than the actual reality? Can you learn things about the character through the way he or she describes events that maybe aren't the sorts of things the character would want you to know? Is there something about the character that drives the way he or she tells this story, and makes it different than the way a more impartial narrator would?

warofthesparks · Feb 22, 2010

Alice Walker wrote The Color Purple as a series of letters that the MC writes to her sister and to God. When the POV is the sister, the letters are written to the MC. In the book there are no quotation marks, and since the MC is near to illiterate, the grammar is all screwy.

Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0156031825/?tag=absolutewritedm-20

There should be a "Look Inside" feature, if I'm not mistaken.

Libbie · Feb 22, 2010

I like both your ideas, but I do think the letter one would be difficult to pull off.

RJK · Feb 22, 2010

Both examples, as stated above, have been done many times before. Some were very successful. You need to remember, you are removing the reader another level away from the world of the story.
Your intent, when writing a story, is to get the reader to suspend belief that he is reading a story, and actually knows the characters and cares about them. By telling your story through letters, or through people sitting around a campfire, you must get the reader past that level, and into the story. It's not impossible, just more difficult.

S.J. · Feb 22, 2010

I think both would work; and personally, I wouldn't question the recollection of exact dialogue in letters. After all, the letter-writer would only include dialogue that they found particularly significant/shocking/important, so why shouldn't they remember it? They could also be recording an approximation of the dialogue, rather than the exact wording. Alternatively you could just call it 'artistic license' - I doubt anyone would question it. As somebody's already said, most past-tense first-person narrators recall reams of dialogue perfectly and nobody minds.

Recently I read Thirteen Reasons Why by Jay Asher, which had an interesting method of telling - most of the novel was comprised of a suicide tape recorded by a schoolgirl and the rest was the listener's reactions. It was a good idea, but because the writing and story weren't really that good, it came across as gimmicky. I suppose my point is that an interesting storytelling method doesn't make for an interesting story.

Whoa, this was a long post. Good luck with your novel!

Jamesaritchie · Feb 22, 2010

RJK said:
Both examples, as stated above, have been done many times before. Some were very successful. You need to remember, you are removing the reader another level away from the world of the story.
Your intent, when writing a story, is to get the reader to suspend belief that he is reading a story, and actually knows the characters and cares about them. By telling your story through letters, or through people sitting around a campfire, you must get the reader past that level, and into the story. It's not impossible, just more difficult.

I think it's much easier, not more difficult. The reason stories are written in teh form of journals, letters, or the across teh campfire/kitchen table approach gives a believable grounding for the story that ordinary third person limited lacks.

It's ordinary third person limited where you have trouble making a reader forget that he's just reading a story.

Elias Graves · Feb 23, 2010

Twain did some shorts with "himself" as the narrator. I think the key to that style is having a narrator the reader can stay with that long. If he/she isn't a good yarn spinner, you're probably lost.

EG

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