Big problems with prologue.

frisco · Feb 18, 2010

I originally wrote my novel with a prologue, then I got advice that people don't like prologues and I should try to work the information into the story--and I did, but now i'm second guessing myself.

I think the info is important and really works best in a prologue. It helps establish the main character in a sympathetic light, which doesn't come across as well otherwise.

If I go with the prologue and miraculously an agent requests the first chapter or so, do I send the prologue or chapter one?

suki · Feb 18, 2010

frisco said:
I originally wrote my novel with a prologue, then I got advice that people don't like prologues and I should try to work the information into the story--and I did, but now i'm second guessing myself.

I think the info is important and really works best in a prologue. It helps establish the main character in a sympathetic light, which doesn't come across as well otherwise.

If I go with the prologue and miraculously an agent requests the first chapter or so, do I send the prologue or chapter one?

There are several threads around AW on this exact issue, including this one:

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170688

Short answer - if you feel it is necessary, then keep it. But know that many editors and agents frown upon them. And then I think when asked for chapter 1 you have a tough call to make:

- if the prologue is less than 3 pages, I'd send the prologue and chapter 1.

- if it's longer than 3 pages, it's a tough call. Because you obviously think it is essential to the book, but if you send it and the first chapter, some agents will feel you are not following instructions. But I think if you feel it is essential, you should include it.

So, ask yourself - do you think the prologue is necessary to the reader's understanding of chapters 1-3?

If no, then I'm not sure it's necessary at all and you should strongly consider whether it is effective.

If yes, then you have your answer.

~suki

FJAR0009 · Feb 18, 2010

I'm not sure who you heard, "People don't like prologues" from, but that's only SOME people. Prologues are excellent for setting up a story and can capture a reader like a bear trap. If the agent requests the 'first chapter or so,' send the prologue, because, really, it is "The First Chapter" - it's just under a different heading.

Prologues are like a bone in the spine of the story; they are important and informative and keeps readers flipping pages to see where the events in the prologue tie in with the actual story they're reading.

YAwriter72 · Feb 18, 2010

Several agents have recently said that if you do have a prologue, leave it out of the sample chapters you send.

One agent in particular said "reel me in, get me hooked and wanting more and then tell me there's a prologue and I'll see if its needed"

FJAR0009 · Feb 18, 2010

YAwriter72 said:
Several agents have recently said that if you do have a prologue, leave it out of the sample chapters you send.

One agent in particular said "reel me in, get me hooked and wanting more and then tell me there's a prologue and I'll see if its needed"

I sent my prologue and the first two chapters to a publisher...

Am I screwed, now?

YAwriter72 · Feb 18, 2010

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to the prologue question actually. Some people use them as a place to info dump, others use them brilliantly and they work well. Good luck though, I don't think it would make or break it if they loved the story and voice.

blacbird · Feb 18, 2010

FJAR0009 said:
Prologues are like a bone in the spine of the story; they are important and informative and keeps readers flipping pages to see where the events in the prologue tie in with the actual story they're reading.

Some prologues are important and informative. Too many are turgid info-dumps for authorial ideas that either should be worked into the story in a more appropriate place, or simply don't need to be there at all.

And when I'm reading a book, the last thing I want to do is be "flipping pages to see where the events in the prologue tie in". The only page I ever want to flip is the one on the right side that lets me get to the following one.

caw

Judg · Feb 18, 2010

FJ, some agents specifically say that they want the prologue included in sample pages. There is no consensus on this question. The best advice I can give you is to try to find out what individual agents prefer (if they have blogs, that's probably a great place to check), and failing that, follow the better advice given further up this thread.

maestrowork · Feb 18, 2010

frisco said:
I think the info is important and really works best in a prologue. It helps establish the main character in a sympathetic light, which doesn't come across as well otherwise.

But why do you have to give that information up front? Why do we need to find the main character in a sympathetic light right off the bat? Why don't you let us decide and then fill in the blanks later?

I hate to see when writers feel like they MUST reveal information BEFORE anything else happens. You know, the real important, main plot, things...

Analogy: it'd be like having to know the woman's parentage, backgrounds, schools, childhood, etc. before you go on a date with her. It could work (if you're in an arranged marriage, for example), but most likely, I'd rather go on the date first and find out about her that way...

If you can't make your character sympathetic without this piece of "prologue" information, then you may want to examine the way you're writing this character. (Analogy: if you find that you must know the woman's background first before you can consider her attractive and pleasant, then get out of the date!)

FJAR0009 · Feb 18, 2010

Judg said:
FJ, some agents specifically say that they want the prologue included in sample pages. There is no consensus on this question. The best advice I can give you is to try to find out what individual agents prefer (if they have blogs, that's probably a great place to check), and failing that, follow the better advice given further up this thread.

Thanks. And I actually sent to a publisher, but now that I think about it, the publisher has taken on several books of a genre that definitely have prologues. A lot of the time, science fiction and fantasy novels start off that way. So, I really shouldn't be worrying, right?

Sorry to detract from the original poster.

frisco · Feb 18, 2010

maestrowork said:
But why do you have to give that information up front? Why do we need to find the main character in a sympathetic light right off the bat? Why don't you let us decide and then fill in the blanks later?

I hate to see when writers feel like they MUST reveal information BEFORE anything else happens. You know, the real important, main plot, things...

Analogy: it'd be like having to know the woman's parentage, backgrounds, schools, childhood, etc. before you go on a date with her. It could work (if you're in an arranged marriage, for example), but most likely, I'd rather go on the date first and find out about her that way...

If you can't make your character sympathetic without this piece of "prologue" information, then you may want to examine the way you're writing this character. (Analogy: if you find that you must know the woman's background first before you can consider her attractive and pleasant, then get out of the date!)

Because its background information that lays the foundation for the entire story. An event happened with is important--and not easily relatable as the main character doesn't want to talk about it with anyone.

It also is important later on in the story, as one of the characters involved in the prologue comes back to haunt the main character later on.

I tried to relay the info in dream sequences, but didn't like it at all.

Scoates · Feb 18, 2010

If the prologue is a scene, it can stay. If it is exposition, it goes.

jl1966ca · Feb 18, 2010

People who like prologues ... like prologues (count me among them, when it's appropriate to the story). People who don't like prologues ... don't like prologues.

maestrowork · Feb 18, 2010

frisco said:
Because its background information that lays the foundation for the entire story. An event happened with is important--and not easily relatable as the main character doesn't want to talk about it with anyone.

But do we need to know BEFORE everything else happens. That's my question. I'm not asking if that information is important or not.

It also is important later on in the story, as one of the characters involved in the prologue comes back to haunt the main character later on.

Then why not give us the information then?

I mean, do we need a prologue about Scrooge's background first before we meet Marley? Nope. It started immediately when Marley was dead and Scrooge was, well, Scrooge. There was no prologue on how Scrooge and Marley met, how they became business partners, etc. The first line is:
"Marley was dead."

I tried to relay the info in dream sequences, but didn't like it at all.

Write another scene, then.

frisco · Feb 18, 2010

maestrowork said:
I mean, do we need a prologue about Scrooge's background first before we meet Marlin? Nope. It started immediately when Marlin was dead and Scrooge was, well, Scrooge. There was no prologue on how Scrooge and Marlin met, how they became business partners, etc. The first line is:
"Marlin was dead."

Interesting analagy, and one of the problems I'm having. My main character has been criticized for not being likable--a lot of which has to do with the prologue--maybe he would be more likeable if people knew what happened to him earlier on.

Scrooge is not a likable character either, but he's a classic.

I guess i'm trying to satisfy the critics who feel my main character is hard to get behind, while also organizing my story in a format that makes the most sense. The prologue I am writing is not an info dump, its an actual scene that IMO works nicely.

Maxinquaye · Feb 18, 2010

frisco said:
I originally wrote my novel with a prologue, then I got advice that people don't like prologues and I should try to work the information into the story--and I did, but now i'm second guessing myself.

I think the info is important and really works best in a prologue. It helps establish the main character in a sympathetic light, which doesn't come across as well otherwise.

If I go with the prologue and miraculously an agent requests the first chapter or so, do I send the prologue or chapter one?

I wouldn't say a prologue is bad or good. It's the use of it that's a problem. Many new writers have a prologue to "explain" the character, or "explain" the background, or "explain" the milieu.

It becomes a long info-dump which is bad because a novel is supposed to dramatize a series of scenes that lead to a certain conclusion. New writers tend to use the prologue like a chorus at the beginning of a play that explainsthe significance of the wallpaper patterns in the scene.

The character and the story will be explained by its unfolding.

If a prologue unfolds story, character then I don't see what's wrong with it. It's another tool in the toolbox. But this hammer is too often used to drive in screws in wood, and that's why many agents and editors look at them so unfavourably.

And besides, many readers just skip the prologue entirely.

jl1966ca · Feb 18, 2010

Maxinquaye;4654232 And besides said:
I've never understood that. I read all sections of a book ... I mean the writer took the time to write it so I should take the time to read it. Regardless of whether it is effective or not, the writer must have it in there for some purpose.

If the prologue is poorly written and is basically doggy dung, then the subsequent chapters are going to be the same shit, different pile.

jl1966ca · Feb 18, 2010

Hmmmm ... my quote didn't seem to work properly.

blacbird · Feb 18, 2010

maestrowork said:
The first line is:
"Marlin was dead."

Actually it's "Marley was dead."

"Marlin was dead" would be a better opening line for Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea.

caw

FJAR0009 · Feb 18, 2010

jl1966ca said:
If the prologue is poorly written and is basically doggy dung, then the subsequent chapters are going to be the same shit, different pile.

I really like that analogy. And, actually, it's very true.

Albannach · Feb 18, 2010

maestrowork said:
If you can't make your character sympathetic without this piece of "prologue" information...

And who says that prologues have to be "information". They may well, in fact often are, action.

I suggest reading the prologue of A Game of Thrones for an example.

I think you are making assumptions that are extremely wide of the mark.

kaitie · Feb 18, 2010

blacbird said:
Some prologues are important and informative. Too many are turgid info-dumps for authorial ideas that either should be worked into the story in a more appropriate place, or simply don't need to be there at all.

And when I'm reading a book, the last thing I want to do is be "flipping pages to see where the events in the prologue tie in". The only page I ever want to flip is the one on the right side that lets me get to the following one.

caw

I'm agreeing here. Sometimes it works and adds to the story. I've said this before, but I think what people protest against is the bad use of prologues, which unfortunately is the majority. Many new writers use prologues as a way to info dump things they think are important for the reader to know. A prologue done best should set up the story and entice the reader and provide some sense of tone and what's to come. It's hard to know which category yours falls into without seeing it or knowing more about it.

I wouldn't get rid of a prologue solely because agents and editors don't usually like them, but it would make me think more critically about why I had a prologue and whether or not it truly added to the story. If it's done well and done right, an agent won't turn you down because of it. The problem is just getting it done well and right.

FJAR0009 · Feb 18, 2010

Albannach said:
And who says that prologues have to be "information". They may well, in fact often are, action.

Mine is comprised of a large battle scene and 0% background information on my MC and his main antagonist.

Albannach · Feb 18, 2010

maestrowork said:
But do we need to know BEFORE everything else happens. That's my question. I'm not asking if that information is important or not.

Then why not give us the information then?

I mean, do we need a prologue about Scrooge's background first before we meet Marlin? Nope. It started immediately when Marlin was dead and Scrooge was, well, Scrooge. There was no prologue on how Scrooge and Marlin met, how they became business partners, etc. The first line is:
"Marlin was dead."

Write another scene, then.

As a matter of fact, there is a great DEAL of information about Scooge before the reader meets Marley. He is referred to but the first part has nothing to do with Marley. And since how Scrooge met Marley is unrelated to the story that's an entirely strawman argument.

Not an example that supports your contention (besides getting the name wrong)

Albannach · Feb 18, 2010

kaitie said:
I'm agreeing here. Sometimes it works and adds to the story. I've said this before, but I think what people protest against is the bad use of prologues, which unfortunately is the majority. Many new writers use prologues as a way to info dump things they think are important for the reader to know. A prologue done best should set up the story and entice the reader and provide some sense of tone and what's to come. It's hard to know which category yours falls into without seeing it or knowing more about it.

I wouldn't get rid of a prologue solely because agents and editors don't usually like them, but it would make me think more critically about why I had a prologue and whether or not it truly added to the story. If it's done well and done right, an agent won't turn you down because of it. The problem is just getting it done well and right.

Well said.

Big problems with prologue.

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