Fantasy without Magic?

Krazykat · Feb 17, 2010

I’ve just started toying with query ideas for my newest novel, and it’s occurred to me that although I would describe this one as a fantasy, it could be argued that it doesn’t technically qualify. The countries and cultures are purely imaginary, and the situation would immediately by identified by anyone as pretty typical of fantasy (it begins with four young thieves sent to break into a fortress), but there isn’t a speck of magic or supernatural power of any kind in the story . . .

The characters are just very real humans with very real quirks and weaknesses. It certainly has elements of an adventure/quest, and it also has quite a bit of humor. I think it could be said to have some of the qualities of a ‘Fantasy of Manners’, since the conflicts are primarily social, cultural and political—i.e. there are no sword fights, and there is lots of (hopefully!) witty dialogue. But it doesn’t fit most definitions I’ve read of that subgenre either, since the society is not particularly complex and it’s definitely not post medieval. (The technology is probably comparable to that of the Roman Empire.)

So the question remains: what genre is it?

(And no, it doesn't really matter to me what genre it is--I just think it's a really fun book, and I'm hoping others will enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it--but it's the whole query letter/marketing issue that makes me feel like I should have a 'label' for it that isn't going to mislead or disappoint someone . . .)

Chris P · Feb 17, 2010

If I recall, "Gord the Rogue" by Gary Gygax was fantasy, and there was no magic or supernatural in it. It's been 25 years since I've read it, but it was definitely in the fantasy genre.

Pthom · Feb 17, 2010

Might be considered by some to be historical fiction, but that doesn't really work because you made up the world and cultures.

Jaqueline Carey's Kushiel series travels along this vein quite a bit, and what little magic there is, occurs well into the series (not in the first book, as I recall). Yet it's definitely a fantasy.

Seems to me that your story is a fantasy.

DeleyanLee · Feb 17, 2010

Krazykat said:
I’ve just started toying with query ideas for my newest novel, and it’s occurred to me that although I would describe this one as a fantasy, it could be argued that it doesn’t technically qualify. The countries and cultures are purely imaginary, and the situation would immediately by identified by anyone as pretty typical of fantasy (it begins with four young thieves sent to break into a fortress), but there isn’t a speck of magic or supernatural power of any kind in the story . . .

Definition of Fantasy demands that there be something fantastic that's central to the story. Not "magic", just "fantastic". That means something that's not found in the real world and isn't rationalized away by any form of science.

Magic is just the easy fantastic element that most authors can use. Doesn't mean it's the only one by a long-shot. I mean, think about it--how much magic is really in LOTR? Not a whole pile, but it was still a fantastic world.

It also sounds like you're using a tried-and-true Genre Fantasy trope, which will make it read even more like a Genre Fantasy novel.

Personally, I'd say you're good to go. Now, focus your energy on writing a damned good story instead of worrying how to market it when it's finished.

Kitty Pryde · Feb 17, 2010

Fantasy. Read Gormenghast. Or Swordspoint.

Stellan · Feb 17, 2010

This is one of my favourite subgenres, though I do tend prefer when magic is present but subtle and/or rare.

All the ones I've read have been shelved with fantasy, and they feel like fantasy novels to me, even if there aren't many 'fantastic' aspects.

Giovanni_Spada · Feb 17, 2010

Chris P said:
If I recall, "Gord the Rogue" by Gary Gygax was fantasy, and there was no magic or supernatural in it. It's been 25 years since I've read it, but it was definitely in the fantasy genre.

As far as I am aware, there were about a half-dozen novels written by Gygax featuring Gord, but none of them were actually called Gord the Rogue and all of them were quite high-magic, being set in Greyhawk and featuring deities as characters.

Chris P · Feb 17, 2010

Giovanni_Spada said:
As far as I am aware, there were about a half-dozen novels written by Gygax featuring Gord, but none of them were actually called Gord the Rogue and all of them were quite high-magic, being set in Greyhawk and featuring deities as characters.

City of Hawks was the book I read. It had magic in it? Perhaps it has been a while! Never mind me...

SPMiller · Feb 17, 2010

We have, by the way, had numerous threads on this over the years. (And yeah, I realize you're new.) A quick search will yield several results, including at least one with the exact same title as this one.

samripley · Feb 17, 2010

I know a bunch of books like that: set in worlds that aren't our own but have no magic. I'd definitely say it's fantasy, since the whole world is made up, even if there isn't magic.

eyeblink · Feb 17, 2010

Kitty Pryde said:
Fantasy. Read Gormenghast. Or Swordspoint.

Or the Legends of the Land series by Steve Cockayne, which starts with Wanderers and Islanders. (Caveat: I've not actually read this myself, though at least one person whose opinion I generally trust recommended it.)

Xelebes · Feb 17, 2010

I was going to ask something similar. The work I am labouring over talks a lot about magic but not an iota of magic happens.

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 17, 2010

What fantasy really requires is whimsy, and it sounds like you've got it. I've had some stories like this, and read some, and heard of some, and I'd classify them as fantasy.

MattW · Feb 17, 2010

I've said in prior versions of this topic that I write fantasy without magic, or very little of it. More stories about people and machinations, and the occasional superstitious happening, but definitely no magic swords, spells, or anything controllable.

I have to retract some previous statements. I'm now working on something with subtle magic, but it can be called or cast by some nefarious folks, and the people that fight it realize they've been worshiping a deity that thrives on consuming the power of other entities (which is why magic seems so rare - all the small spirits are dead).

Doesn't sound like low fantasy anymore, so I've come around somewhat...

shaldna · Feb 18, 2010

I know it's already been said, but Gormenghast is a brilliant example of this.

Krazykat · Feb 21, 2010

Thanks to everyone for their comments—it helps to know that the consensus is that it’s still best described as fantasy, and that I should be comfortable about sticking with my instincts and going by the ‘feel’ of the story. Of course, as DelayanLee pointed out, by definition fantasy is meant to involve something ‘fantastic’, but I suppose all one can do is point to the fact that the setting is purely imaginary, even if there’s nothing scientifically implausible going on, and leave it at that . . . (And just call it fantasy in general, without identifying any subgenre.)

Curiously, if we’re looking at technical definitions, I don’t believe there’s anything that would prevent this kind of story from qualifying as sociological science fiction, but I find that thought amusing. I also have a science fiction novel, for which I have just been writing (or should I say agonizing over!) a synopsis and query letter—which is why I had query letters on the brain, and started thinking about how I was going to approach querying the new novel . . . Anyway, I would describe that novel as ‘dyed in the wool’ sociological SF. And to me, it’s a completely different animal—not just because it’s set in the far future and does involve one culture with some very advanced technologies, but because it has an entirely different feel and flavor to it. (It’s also much more serious than the novel in question, not to mention nearly four times as long!)

I guess what it boils down to is that sometimes you have to look past that technical definition and look at the character of the story and how it’s presented, and consider more abstract characteristics (i.e. things like ‘whimsy’).

In other words, if it looks like fantasy, and ‘smells’ like fantasy, what else can you call it?

(Hmm—sounds a bit like: “Looks like Gelfling . . . Smells like Gelfling . . . Must be Gelfling!!!” (Sorry—couldn’t resist! D.C. is one of my all-time favorite films . . .!))

Fantasy without Magic?

Krazykat

Positivilly Movillis . . .

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

Pthom

Word butcher

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

Stellan

Not that other guy

Giovanni_Spada

Chris P

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

samripley

eyeblink

Barbara says hi

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

Liosse de Velishaf

MattW

Company Man

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Krazykat

Positivilly Movillis . . .