Gender-based magic?

Ambri · Feb 15, 2010

So, I've realized I have two different sex-based magics in a few of my WIPs. One is a sex-linked trait, in a psedo-scientific explanation as to why only women can be mages or healers. The other one is for something I'm still brainstorming, and I'm thinking it would be more along the lines of a 'women do THIS type of magic and men do THAT type' in a sort of cultural/ taboo kind of tradition. My question is, what does everyone think of this? Is it too sexist?

Possibly, years ago when I began the one that involved the sex-linked trait, it was partially in knee-jerk reaction to all the old-school fantasies, where it was always a MAN who was the all-powerful spell-wielding dude. When I mentioned this to my boyfriend, he said he didn't like the idea of sex-linked talents or traits, but I think the only example he's been exposed to was an RPG based on the Wheel of Time setting (which, IMO, is a rather bland and boring fantasy world, anyway).

Thoughts? Ideas? Examples?

Rhys Cordelle · Feb 15, 2010

I don't think you can be "too sexist" in fantasy. People generally expect it I think, given that they're usually in medieval or primitive settings.

I do like hte idea of both sexes being capable of casting both spell types, but that it's "taboo" to do so. That could make for some very interesting situations.

vr88 · Feb 15, 2010

See point 4 here:
http://limyaael.livejournal.com/133275.html

boredmormon · Feb 15, 2010

Its common enough in fantasy. Even the character born with the other genders magic.

What I can't stand is the trend in a lot of recent fantasy for modern gender equality in medieval type settings. To be believable there needs to be real differences between the genders. And bigger differences in how they treat each other.

WildScribe · Feb 15, 2010

Every world has a different premise for magic, and they're all (or maybe almost all) fine as long as the world and the magic fit. There is no such thing as too sexist in fantasy, I think. Or at least you would have to actively try to hit that spot.

dogfacedboy · Feb 15, 2010

As noted above, there really isn't anything that's too intolerant or stereotypical for a fantasy setting. Fantasy is sort of an open forum for that sort of thing. Just look at the way racism is blatantly encouraged in countless fantasy tales (all orcs are evil, etc).

So go for it. Unless you're bordering on unintentionally comical stereotypes, you really aren't risking any negative feedback from your readers for being sexist.

GeorgeK · Feb 15, 2010

Another way to look at it is, "Who are you going to tick off?"

Answer:
1.Ultra-right religious zealots who hate mention of any sort of magic, so why worry about them if you are writing fantasy? They will probably never read it, but if they did it might generate publicity and help you.

2. Misogynists, and in my experience, they tend not to read fantasy since they are wrapped up in their own, so again

Go for it.

It's your world. You could justify it Genetically (need a Y to do this, but need 2X's to do that....or...magic is on X but a Y inhibits a subset or many other combinations) or Hormonally in which case maybe menopausal women's magic is different than premenopausal, or it could be diet; men and women do tend to get cravings that usually are cross cultures. Perhaps in your world having a Y makes you think the fruit of the Magic Tree tastes horrible.

Ask your BF whether there were more women or men executed for witchcraft.

sunandshadow · Feb 15, 2010

Personally I don't really like the idea of sex-linked magic or traits. For me it would only work if the sexes had 'different but equal' magic (although that's basically promoting segregation, makes me leery) and the split wasn't perfect because intersex, transsexual, and/or gay mages might have the powers of the opposite sex. But, it could be worse - I really don't like set-ups where only virgins have magic, or people with magical abilities are sterile or are born with some other handicap to compensate.

Closest thing I've got to sex-linked magic in my own stories is that magic is personality-linked, and some personalities are usually male and others usually female.

Scoates · Feb 15, 2010

My first reaction to hearing about a female only mage gene was repugnance. I am just so tired of over-powered female characters, and if they are written by female authors, even more so.

Now, if it were written WELL, I wouldn't care. If, for example, the women were still considered inferior. I just have a strong negative reaction to overpowered female characters, as a cliche.

The second idea, I believe has more potential. The men could have more of a voodoo power, or perhaps their power is inherently weaker unless they cross into dark magic, so there is a temptation. Still, women as healers only seems cliched as well. You don't want the women to be TOO weak/subservient.

To please me, as a reader, either idea would need to shake up some old cliches. For example, I don't care if the women pretend to be subservient healers as long as they secretly dabble in something darker. I wouldn't want to see black and white.

Scoates · Feb 15, 2010

sunandshadow said:
I really don't like set-ups where only virgins have magic, or people with magical abilities are sterile or are born with some other handicap to compensate.

Interesting. I am the opposite. If there is no price for magic, it loses my interest. I've seen too many stories where I thought, "Wouldn't everyone want to be a wizard in this world?"

Art_Sempai · Feb 15, 2010

I have a few sex linked magic characters. I based their powers around Yin and Yang elements.

sunandshadow said:
Personally I don't really like the idea of sex-linked magic or traits. For me it would only work if the sexes had 'different but equal' magic (although that's basically promoting segregation, makes me leery) and the split wasn't perfect because intersex, transsexual, and/or gay mages might have the powers of the opposite sex. But, it could be worse - I really don't like set-ups where only virgins have magic, or people with magical abilities are sterile or are born with some other handicap to compensate.

Closest thing I've got to sex-linked magic in my own stories is that magic is personality-linked, and some personalities are usually male and others usually female.

Canotila · Feb 15, 2010

Scoates said:
Interesting. I am the opposite. If there is no price for magic, it loses my interest. I've seen too many stories where I thought, "Wouldn't everyone want to be a wizard in this world?"

I've often thought about that. At first glance, yeah it seems like everybody would want the power and awesome that comes with being a wizard and doing magic.

But then, look at our world. We have machines that can fly. How thrilling is that? Why doesn't everyone want to go out and get a pilot license so they can experience soaring through the air themselves? Instead, people moan and whine about having to wait 45 minutes on the tarmac before take off. Seriously? They're sitting on a chair, traveling thousands of miles, in the sky, and complaining about how long it takes to get somewhere.

What about scuba diving? I mean, you can breath underwater and see amazing things! Why doesn't everybody run out and buy some scuba gear and take the dumb few week course so they can go do it?

These are things that are easily accessible to most people, yet most people choose to sit on their rears and let themselves be passively entertained. Instead of taking time to learn real life ninja skills for themselves, youth sit down and spend hours on video games honing the skills of their RPG characters.

I think that in a world of easily accessible magic, the novelty would wear off quickly for the inhabitants of that world. Unless magic can produce vast fields of food and racks of clothing, most folks are going to have to devote their time to mundane, life sustaining pursuits.

sunandshadow · Feb 15, 2010

Scoates said:
Interesting. I am the opposite. If there is no price for magic, it loses my interest. I've seen too many stories where I thought, "Wouldn't everyone want to be a wizard in this world?"

I see magic as making the world slightly more responsive to human desire, the way it ought to be. Magic goes a small way toward fixing a wrong of reality, a price we all pay all our lives - adding an additional price ruins the value of magic as a gift. As for rarity, I prefer magic to be something that's relatively common, enough to build part of the economy around it and treat it like any other natural talent. Having different types of magic also makes any particular kind rare, maybe only one person in a dozen or two dozen will have a particular ability, strongly enough to be useful.

leahzero · Feb 15, 2010

Rhys Cordelle said:
I don't think you can be "too sexist" in fantasy. People generally expect it I think, given that they're usually in medieval or primitive settings.

You're forgetting the key word "fantasy" here. In reality, yes, there was rampant misogyny during the Middle Ages. In a fantasy world, no such oppressive patriarchal history need exist.

Regarding whether it's "sexist" to have gender-based magic: no, inherently, it isn't sexist. What would be sexist is if this gender specificity conferred privilege/power to one gender. This could open up some interesting opportunities to explore the dynamics of power between genders in your world.

Also, please keep in mind that "gender" is a social construct that conveys the perceived sexual identity and role of an individual in society--it does not necessarily coincide with the biological sexual characteristics of a person. In other words, a biological female may identify as male-gendered, etc.

But if you design your magic to be gender-specific for no real purpose, then yeah, that's treading into cliché territory.

Scoates · Feb 15, 2010

Canotila said:
I've often thought about that. At first glance, yeah it seems like everybody would want the power and awesome that comes with being a wizard and doing magic.

But then, look at our world. We have machines that can fly. How thrilling is that? Why doesn't everyone want to go out and get a pilot license so they can experience soaring through the air themselves? Instead, people moan and whine about having to wait 45 minutes on the tarmac before take off. Seriously? They're sitting on a chair, traveling thousands of miles, in the sky, and complaining about how long it takes to get somewhere.

What about scuba diving? I mean, you can breath underwater and see amazing things! Why doesn't everybody run out and buy some scuba gear and take the dumb few week course so they can go do it?

These are things that are easily accessible to most people, yet most people choose to sit on their rears and let themselves be passively entertained. Instead of taking time to learn real life ninja skills for themselves, youth sit down and spend hours on video games honing the skills of their RPG characters.

I think that in a world of easily accessible magic, the novelty would wear off quickly for the inhabitants of that world. Unless magic can produce vast fields of food and racks of clothing, most folks are going to have to devote their time to mundane, life sustaining pursuits.

Maybe that's it. I don't like mundane magic. It also seems less dark to me.

MAP · Feb 15, 2010

Ambri said:
So, I've realized I have two different sex-based magics in a few of my WIPs. One is a sex-linked trait, in a psedo-scientific explanation as to why only women can be mages or healers.

How does sex-linked traits only give the magic to females? Men have an X chromosome, and I know women have two of them, but one of them is randomly inactivated in every cell (google Barr body). So really men and woman have one active X-chromosome.

Edited to add: Nevermind, I just found an article that explains the difference in gene expressions in men and woman. Apparently some of the genes are active on the inactivated X-chromosome in women. This is the link of the article I found if anyone else is interested. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050323124659.htm

efkelley · Feb 16, 2010

Robert Jordan's 'Wheel of Time' series springs to mind where the different flows of magic are gender based, as are the strength and capabilities of said magic.

JimmyB27 · Feb 16, 2010

sunandshadow said:
I really don't like set-ups where only virgins have magic, or people with magical abilities are sterile or are born with some other handicap to compensate.

Scoates said:
Interesting. I am the opposite. If there is no price for magic, it loses my interest. I've seen too many stories where I thought, "Wouldn't everyone want to be a wizard in this world?"

Canotila said:
I've often thought about that. At first glance, yeah it seems like everybody would want the power and awesome that comes with being a wizard and doing magic.

But then, look at our world. We have machines that can fly. How thrilling is that? Why doesn't everyone want to go out and get a pilot license so they can experience soaring through the air themselves? Instead, people moan and whine about having to wait 45 minutes on the tarmac before take off. Seriously? They're sitting on a chair, traveling thousands of miles, in the sky, and complaining about how long it takes to get somewhere.

What about scuba diving? I mean, you can breath underwater and see amazing things! Why doesn't everybody run out and buy some scuba gear and take the dumb few week course so they can go do it?

These are things that are easily accessible to most people, yet most people choose to sit on their rears and let themselves be passively entertained. Instead of taking time to learn real life ninja skills for themselves, youth sit down and spend hours on video games honing the skills of their RPG characters.

I think that in a world of easily accessible magic, the novelty would wear off quickly for the inhabitants of that world. Unless magic can produce vast fields of food and racks of clothing, most folks are going to have to devote their time to mundane, life sustaining pursuits.

I agree with Canotila. And the way I read sunandshadow's post describes something I dislike too. Namely, not simply giving magic a price (which might be something as simple as it being damn difficult), but the idea of what is, to me, a very contrived price - like only virgins have it or whatever.

Stellan · Feb 16, 2010

Gender-based magic will 95% of the time make my eyes roll so hard they fall out of my head. The other 5% of the time, it tends to deal with subversions of or exceptions to such a system. But then, I don't like essentialism in any form. When it's got the oomph of magical or divine power behind it, I like it even less. Sex and gender aren't simple, easily defined things (look up on gender verification testing in sports if you don't believe me), and fiction which treats them as such just rubs me the wrong way.

I'd want to ask: where does this system leave intersexed people, or transgendered and transsexual people? If your sex-based magic is linked to chromosomes, what about Turner and Klinefelter's syndrome? If it's linked to hormones, what about post-menopausal women, or those with PCOS? Or do men and women have different types of souls in this world? If so, why? What about men and women that just don't conform to their expected gender roles?

I'm not saying gender-based magic systems can't be done, and done well, but for me at least they have some serious hurdles to overcome.

JimmyB27 · Feb 16, 2010

s.thorne said:
Gender-based magic will 95% of the time make my eyes roll so hard they fall out of my head. The other 5% of the time, it tends to deal with subversions of or exceptions to such a system. But then, I don't like essentialism in any form. When it's got the oomph of magical or divine power behind it, I like it even less. Sex and gender aren't simple, easily defined things (look up on gender verification testing in sports if you don't believe me), and fiction which treats them as such just rubs me the wrong way.

I'd want to ask: where does this system leave intersexed people, or transgendered and transsexual people? If your sex-based magic is linked to chromosomes, what about Turner and Klinefelter's syndrome? If it's linked to hormones, what about post-menopausal women, or those with PCOS? Or do men and women have different types of souls in this world? If so, why? What about men and women that just don't conform to their expected gender roles?

I'm not saying gender-based magic systems can't be done, and done well, but for me at least they have some serious hurdles to overcome.

Just like anything else in worldbuilding.

The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of gender based magic. It's about time people woke up to the fact that gender equality doesn't mean that they have to be the same. And also, like you say, that gender isn't necessarily a binary thing.

Stellan · Feb 16, 2010

JimmyB27 said:
Just like anything else in worldbuilding.

The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of gender based magic. It's about time people woke up to the fact that gender equality doesn't mean that they have to be the same. And also, like you say, that gender isn't necessarily a binary thing.

Oh, absolutely. A system like that would actually be pretty damn cool to see. I just can't stand the "man make pew-pew fireballs, woman heal with pretty lights" kind of thing. :tongue

MattW · Feb 16, 2010

It depends on the source of magic.

If magic can be learned, there should be no reason for gender distinctions. If it is an inherent trait, it could go either way, depending on what you want to use it for.

efreysson · Feb 16, 2010

s.thorne said:
Oh, absolutely. A system like that would actually be pretty damn cool to see. I just can't stand the "man make pew-pew fireballs, woman heal with pretty lights" kind of thing.

Hmm. Well, magic could be personality-based. Aggresive = Brutal offensive magic, Caring and Nurturing = Healing magic. These are both traits considered more present in one gender over the other. But then a butch woman could make with the fireballs and an effeminate man could do the healing. That way things aren't quite so clear-cut.

MattW · Feb 16, 2010

efreysson said:
Hmm. Well, magic could be personality-based. Aggresive = Brutal offensive magic, Caring and Nurturing = Healing magic. These are both traits considered more present in one gender over the other. But then a butch woman could make with the fireballs and an effeminate man could do the healing. That way things aren't quite so clear-cut.

And I find that a simplistic way to deal with characters. What magic does an aggressive person wield when they are not in battle, but are touched to compassion, or need to defend the helpless?

This is where gender separation can become tricky, or really any delineation for types of magic. It needs to be internally consistent, and who wields magic, and what types, it's one of the challenges of world-building.

dogfacedboy · Feb 16, 2010

I agree with MattW. It depends on the source. My immediate thought was that if magic was a power bestowed by the gods (or a particular god), then it makes 100% sense that the gods might favor women over men or vice versa. Gods tends to be relatively petulent beings anyway, so a little sexism would be nothing shocking.

Gender-based magic?

Plotting something

Slave to the Wordcount

ever seeking

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Writer

Sever your leg please.

Impractical Fantasy Animal

The colors! THE COLORS!

ow

Hoopy frood

Not that other guy

Hoopy frood

Not that other guy

Company Man

Closer than ever

Company Man