Let's talk about rhythm and rhyme...

MsJudy

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Since people do keep writing rhyming PBs in spite of all the dire warnings, I'm wondering if we should start a thread to talk about what makes a good one? We could talk about the craft, and post examples of recently published rhyming books.

I'll start with my teacher perspective:

I LOVE it when people say "Oh, kids don't care if the rhythm is perfect or the rhyme scheme is off."

B***Sh**!

Most rhyming books are read out loud. If the rhythm is even slightly off, the adult reader will stumble. The kids will be pulled out of the fun, and believe me, when you lose a five-year-old, it's damn hard to get them back.

One of the best ways to prepare small children to be good readers later on, to teach them that language is full of sounds that can be manipulated, to develop all their language skills, is to read them rhyming books.

But guess what? It isn't about the RHYME. It's about the RHYTHM. You have to understand and control the rhythm. Because the rhythm will force attention to certain words, and skip over other words. You have to make sure the rhythm will fall on the words you want to showcase. Throw in a surprise, and have it fall on the accented beat, and POW! You've got kids rolling on the floor laughing.

What I see a lot of is poetry that follows a very simple couplet structure:

LA-di-DAH-di-DAH-di-DAH
LA-di-DAH-di-DAH-di-DAH

Fine, if absolutely every couplet fits that. But you can't fudge it, not even once, or it really shows.

But the thing is, there are so many other ways to structure a poem.

Here's an example (apologies to the author, I don't know who first wrote it):
I like apples,
I like pears,
I like bouncing down the stairs!

LAH-LAH-LAH-di
LAH-LAH-LAH,
LAH-LAH-LAH-di
LAH-LAH-LAH!

One of the reasons this one works is that it is a rhythm that occurs naturally when people speak. That makes it very easy to use the same rhythm and help kids write their own poems, which I've done many times.

I like handball,
I like frogs,
I like playing with my dogs! etc.

People who want to write in rhyme should really explore some of the other ways to write in rhythm. Something unexpected is MUCH more likely to sell!
 

MsJudy

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Some other authors I suggest you check out, if rhyme is something you enjoy:

Karma Wilson, BEAR SNORES ON and others.

Bill Martin, Jr., CHICKA CHICKA BOOM BOOM and others.

Nancy Shaw and Margot Apple, SHEEP IN A SHOP and others.
 

MsJudy

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Ooh, I forgot one other point I wanted to make. (I do that a lot.)

The target age for a rhyming book is the very youngest reader. Up to the age of 6 or 7, I would say. So the topic and the story have to be very simple, and probably very silly. Complexity, subtlety, really big words...not gonna happen.

Simple themes, simple stories, told in a fresh new way with lots of laugh-out-loud twists to the language.
 

suki

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JudScotKev - Great Thread idea!

I'll add that kids today are saavy young these days. They aren't going to embrace the precious, or the sickly sweet. At confereces I see so many newbie PB writers who are writing stories for their children and grandchildren, but they are actually writing stories that they as mothers/grandmothers would like to read to their kids/grandkids - stories of tea parties with grandma, or heavy-handed messages.

Kids don't want to be preached at and they don't want stories with overly-sweet stuff.

But they will beg over and over for a book with a great rhythm, and as they get older, books with unpredictable word choices or a story with surprises.

Every young child I've ever given CHICKA CHICKA BOOM BOOM to has loved that book. And it's not complex or preachy. But it's got a great rhythm.

Once they get a little older, then it becomes about the story, more than the rhythm or rhyme, though playing with language still will hold appeal.

~suki
 

jilly61

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I have trouble finding the books you mention in the UK.

For anyone else experiencing the same problem I'd recommend the Hairy Maclary books by Lynley Dodd.

My daughter and I fell in love with them in the eighties but hopefully they're still around.
 

suki

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jilly61,

I know it can be hard to find current books in other markets, but if you are thinking of shopping a picture book today, you really need to be studying the current books - focus on books published in the last 5-10 years as your exemplars. Maybe the library would have them, if you're having trouble finding them for sale.

ETA: Here's some more recent primo books using rhythm and rhyme well:

Cruise, Robin - Only You
Ehlert, Lois - Wag a Tail
Wheeler, Lisa - Jazz Baby
Dewdney, Anna - Llama Llama Red Pajama (and, frankly, all the llama llama books probably)

Not all rhyming, but a great example of playing with words:
Gravett, Emily - Orange Pear Apple Bear

~suki
 
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jilly61

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jilly61,

focus on books published in the last 5-10 years as your exemplars. Maybe the library would have them, if you're having trouble finding them for sale.

~suki

I'll see what I can find in the library this week and get back to you all.
 

suki

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I'll see what I can find in the library this week and get back to you all.

Oh, and I just realized my last post probably sounded kind of harsh -not intended. Older books can be great fun to read and study, if you especially enjoy them. So, I should have prefaced my post with that - lol. if you have an older book you love, and think is a great example, please talk about it and love it. :)

I was just hoping to offer some more recent books as exemplars, since they are the competition for publishing and the tests of the market.

Sorry if my post seems snappish.

~suki
 

jilly61

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It's ok. I was relieved when I checked that Hairy is still out there so he can be included in my list. You're right though there'll be much more recent examples. I'll report back when I've found them.
 

Cyia

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Something else that you need to keep in mind with modern PB is that it usually needs a commercial hook. And it's something you have to incorporate into the rhyme scheme/ rhythm pattern.

I'm one of those who (was/is/will be) shopping rhyming books. Two of them, I know the meter is exact, but my favorite, the one I've worked on since I was in high school, had troubles. That's the one I shopped around when I first got my internet connection in '07 (Lived in the back of beyond with no way to get service and no permission to use dial-up on the phones.) and despite the flaws in the meter, it had/has a very commercial character and a good hook.

The two with the accurate meter, that I haven't sent out yet, are cute, but I'm not sure how they'll sound pitched.

If the premise of the book is boring, then it doesn't matter how spot on your meter is.

Oh -

And meter isn't just for rhyming books, either. I had a non-rhyming book in SYW a while back for some help with the meter. It was set into stanzas like a poem, and while it didn't have a rhyme scheme, each "stanza" had the same beat count. It was an unintentional occurrence of the 1st few sections, but made the book read better when carried through the whole thing. I think the fact that it was organic speaks to how naturally kids (and even adults) seek out and create language patterns.
 

MsJudy

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Cyia--yes, exactly! Language has rhythm to it. People love to use it. Listen to teenagers, for heavens' sake.

PBs that can tap into that natural rhythm are much more successful than ones that try to force a rhyme to fit some other structure.

I've been teaching Spanish-speaking kids to speak English for 20 years. Kids who are terrified to speak up in class will still chant along with a PB they love. It's one of the best ways to learn the language.
 

jilly61

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Well, I tried...

There weren't any brilliant rhyming books at the library. There were some counting books but they weren't big on plot.

One that I did find was 'The Broken Broomstick' by Karen Taylor and that was from 1999.

Another was a collection of rhymes for very young children but they were very short.

I'll have a look in the bookshop at the weekend. We must be able to do better than this.
 

kdbeaar

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With apologies to those of you who may have read this since I posted it on Jilly's thread in SYW, I thought I'd copy and paste it over here since it fit the topic so well. I posted in reply to a comment made that 'children could care less about a perfect rhyme scheme':

(and realizing, of course, that the correct term is 'couldn't care less':))

(And isn't it so funny that this is the third time Chicka Chicka Boom Boom has been mentioned?)


While children may not care about the technicality of perfect rhyme schemes, when a verse has a rhythm where the beats fall into line, it is read with a certain natural cadence that is soothing and exciting to a child. They instinctively hear the musicality of a well-written rhyme. This is what makes a story fun to read, and fun to hear.

If the rhyme is not constructed properly, if the beats fall too early in one line and too late in another, it cannot be read smoothly or musically. And believe me, children hear that. The reader hears it too.

Look at the book Chicka Chicka Boom Boom. Forgive me, but what a silly little book! But oh my gosh, is it fun to read! It has such a great rhythm, such a natural beat to it, that I would read it over and over again, even while thinking, what a silly little book...hey, wanna hear it again?
 

sissybaby

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kdbeaar is right on. Musicality is very, very, very, (can I stress it enough) important. Trust me on this if nothing else.

Now, if only it were easy.

Sissy
 

jilly61

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I'm a recent convert. Despite reading lots of rhyming PBs I realise how easy it is to take the rhythm for granted. Once I started to try to introduce structure it was like going back to studying Shakespeare. It's been a sharp but enjoyable learning curve.

If my trip to the bookshop doesn't reveal any rhyming PBs, I may even be tempted to have another go.
 

MsJudy

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If you ever get the chance, buy the recorded book-on-tape version of Chicka Chicka Boom Boom. Mine is from the Scholastic bookclubs, don't know if the same version is available to non-teachers. But anyway... the flip side of the cassette has Bill Martin talking about how he came to write the book. It was actually a cheer he overheard kids chanting. Kind of like a nonsense scat-song. He liked the beat, made a few changes, and added the alphabet. It's great fun to listen to!
 

fringle

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Judy, my 4yo has the Chicka Chicka Boom Boom book for her Tag reader and she loves it. She recites it with her Tag and cracks up every single time.
 

jilly61

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Another trip to the library later. Along with Dr Seuss I found

Scarface claw- Linley Dodd (2003)

Rosie's Hat - Julia Donaldson & Anna Currey (2005)

Wiggle my toes - Kaye Umansky (2002) - A collection of action rhymes

I never saw a purple cow - Emma Chicester Clarrk (2000) - A collection of nonsense verse.

There is still an emphasis on short rhymes invoving numbers and action. The first two are the exceptions.
 

Viking Horse

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Oh, what an interesting (and, I hope, helpful) topic. Thanks, JudScotKev!
 

stormie

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Some other authors I suggest you check out, if rhyme is something you enjoy:...Bill Martin, Jr., CHICKA CHICKA BOOM BOOM .
This was a hit with my second graders. I'd read it in September every year (as an ice breaker since it was a familiar book). Also when I taught preschool. And my two sons when they were little.

Best rhyming book ever. The kids loved to repeat "ChickaChicka Boom Boom."

Kids love to feel like they're a part of the story. The action and rhythm catches their attention; the repetition draws them in.
 
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Angela_785

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I've recently dug out a rhyming PB of mine that has a very appealing concept...but I struggle with the meter.

I find that if I make the syllables standard (say first like 10 syls, second 11, over and over), and read it out loud, I'll eventually hit a spot where the rhythmn feels off. To get it right, I have to add a syllable at a certain point in the couplet. Then the rhythm feels right...but the syllable count is off, which is BAD. Right?

Love the topic and love hearing your thoughts...I need to understand how to achieve perfect meter!
 
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kdbeaar

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I've recently dug out a rhyming PB of mine that has a very appealing concept...but I struggle with the meter.

I find that if I make the syllables standard (say first like 10 syls, second 11, over and over), and read it out loud, I'll eventually hit a spot where the rhythmn feels off. To get it right, I have to add a syllable at a certain point in the couplet. Then the rhythm feels right...but the syllable count is off, which is BAD. Right?

Love the topic and love hearing your thoughts...I need to understand how to achieve perfect meter!

Can you post it in SYW?
 

kellion92

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Chicka Chicka Boom Boom is such an interesting choice because kids love it but for me, it's kind of meh. Nothing happens, character wise, and it bothers me that the lowercase letters are the ones climbing, but the text uses uppercase letters to represent them.

Also, for anyone interested in Hairy Maclary, these books were only published in the US in the 2000s, so that does make them "new to us." And my daughters (2 and 5) like him too.