Consistent voice in 3rd person limited novels

kal-el said:

Naturally, the narrator's voice is the main character's voice, right? But there is always the author's voice too, isn't there?

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Er, the Narrator and the MC are very much different in any 3rd person novel. The only POV where the narrator is a physical character in the story is 1st person (well, I suppose 2nd person maybe but that's another kettle of fish), at least in general.

There was a long discussion about voice in another thread around here just recently.

ETA: Actually, in a thread you started, in fact.

Bookewyrme said:

Er, the Narrator and the MC are very much different in any 3rd person novel. The only POV where the narrator is a physical character in the story is 1st person (well, I suppose 2nd person maybe but that's another kettle of fish), at least in general.

There was a long discussion about voice in another thread around here just recently.

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The narrator is its own character in omni, very often. The narrator is the main character in 'Close' 3rd Limited, as far as I can tell.

I'm most shaky on the more distant 3rd Limited -- I write omni mostly -- so I'll leave off my thoughts on that so I don't confuse anyone.

The narrator is/can be its own character in 3rd, but not an "actual" character, that interacts with the other characters like in 1st (well, except in some humorous breaking the 4th wall type things of course). No matter how 'close' the 3rd person is, it is still using "he/she" type constructions to show the MC. And most people don't think/speak of themselves in 3rd person.

I suppose you could write a 3rd person that was really 1st person, the MC/Narrator just thought of themselves in 3rd person, but that's not really the same thing. Could be interesting, but that's another topic.

Bookewyrme said:

The narrator is/can be its own character in 3rd, but not an "actual" character, that interacts with the other characters like in 1st (well, except in some humorous breaking the 4th wall type things of course). No matter how 'close' the 3rd person is, it is still using "he/she" type constructions to show the MC. And most people don't think/speak of themselves in 3rd person.

I suppose you could write a 3rd person that was really 1st person, the MC/Narrator just thought of themselves in 3rd person, but that's not really the same thing. Could be interesting, but that's another topic.

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True, true. I'm thinking specifically of voice here. I'd say:

Omni 3rd -- Narrator has own voice, most usually (can dip into other characters, so voice may change if the dip is very deep)

Closest 3rd -- Almost as intimate as 1st. The voice of the character is what you read throughout (for the most part)

More distant 3rds, to me -- add more of a narrator separate from the MC. The language and voice can be less and less like the MC, as the author sees fit.

Interior monologue means the character's voice by definition, I think. No??

You have to distinguish between narration and showing the character's thoughts or coloring the scene through the character's eyes. In 3PL they are separate, though intimately intertwined. In omniscient, they are entirely separate. IMO. Only in first person are they the same.

Erg. I've got to learn how to Multiquote. Anyway.

Backslashbaby: Interior monologue is indeed the character's thoughts, but interior monologue doesn't make up the entirety of the narration. Hopefully.

Matera: If I understand what you're saying, I think that was what I was getting at as well.

kal-el said:

It all just seems like a matter of opinion rather than a matter of fact (once the obvious rules are obeyed of course).

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Most of the rules about writing and style seem to be this way. Except for basic grammar, punctuation, etc.

1) When an author has a strong 'voice' you can flick the book open anywhere and the vocabulary choices, pacing, cadence, imagery and so on tell you that you have a Dorothy Dunnett in your hand as opposed to a Wodehouse or an Agatha Christie or Dorothy Sayers or Wilkie Collins.

These writers have a recognizable 'voice'. It is found everywhere in the book, in all character POVs.

Now, just to be confusing, we use the same word -- 'voice' -- when we talk about aspects of characterization.

2)
a) Each character in a good work of fiction has a distinct voice in dialog. That's his 'voice'.

b) The same dialog 'voice' is found in the POV character's internals.

c) In POV we are also immersed in the POV character's distinct worldview and beliefs, the character's physicality, observations, memory, knowledge, and the character's emotional reactions.
These attitudes and motives are also part of the character's 'voice'.

A 'Narrator' may be added to a story as a distinct character. In this case, the Narrator will also have a distinct voice.

As a general rule, none of the character voices -- not even the Narrator --represents the author talking to the audience. A Narrator is just as much a fictional creation as Peter Rabbit.

So ...

1) An author's 'voice' is how the author writes every part of the story. Stephen King's voice or Emile Loring's voice.

2) Character 'voice' belongs to each fictive creation -- Heathcliffe or Eliza Dolittle or Sinbad the Sailor's voice. This character voice is found in (a) dialog, (b) the language of internals, (c) the constellation of belief, motive, and emotional response that is the character persona.

kal-el said:

So when the character's voice and the author's voice are in the same scenes, it can still count as third person limited, right?

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The author's voice infuses every page of the book, starting with the acknowledgement section and continuing till you hit 'the end'

The fictional characters each have a voice. This is true whether you're writing First Person or Third or Omniscient Narrator.

kal-el said:

Thank you for this brilliant insight, job. Fantastic. It seems to me you have explained it as well as a person could, and as clear as a person could.

So when the character's voice and the author's voice are in the same scenes, it can still count as third person limited, right?

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I think definitely. It only gets tough when character voices need to be different enough from each other. The more distant POV you choose, the less often that comes up. That's not a good reason for choosing POV usually, but it's nice


Actually, I did go with omni in large part because I didn't want too much of my MC's own voice in there. She's naive and silly, and she doesn't recognize enough about what's going on until she grows, which is too far in.

kal-el said:

This is why I posted this thread, because not only is it interesting, but also, very few people seem to know exactly how to define these POV rules. It all just seems like a matter of opinion rather than a matter of fact (once the obvious rules are obeyed of course).

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kal-el said:

I've read so much advice about how a writer should keep the voice consistent throughout a novel, but when people say this, they are referring to the author's voice, right?

Am I right in assuming that all 3rd person limited novels have an author's voice and a narrator's voice? Naturally, the narrator's voice is the main character's voice, right? But there is always the author's voice too, isn't there?

I understand that the narrator's voice must change if the main character changes, but the author's voice is the one that must remain consistent throughout the book, no matter who the main character is, right? All 3rd person limited novels have an author's voice too, don't they?

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No, I don't think you can assume that all 3rd person limited novels have both an author's voice and a narrator's voice.

I try to NEVER do any authorial intrusion. If my main character wouldn't see it, say it or think it as far as I'm concerned it has no place in my novel.

If you are putting in authorial intrusions then it will be 3rd person but not 3rd person limited. It has become 3rd person omni. 3rd person limited if from the PoV of the character NOT from the PoV of the author. Why is that so hard?

If you want to write in omni and use your own voice--do so. No one is stopping you. But you keep wanting to change 3rd limited into 3rd omni and pretend that it's still limited. That doesn't work.

Edit: There are no hard and fast rules. There ARE widely accepted definitions of terms. The two are not the same thing.

Albannach said:

If you are putting in authorial intrusions then it will be 3rd person but not 3rd person limited. It has become 3rd person omni.

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Yes. Terry Pratchett is the king of 3rd-person-omniscient-where-the-narrator-has-a-strong-personality novels at the moment. You can imagine the Pratchett narrator very clearly--he's a lot like Sir Terry only even more Father Christmassy in my mind's eye.

Jane Austen is another great example. Again, the Austen narrator is definitely a strong personality--"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife." You can envision that lady so clearly!

My novel is 3rd person with the entire story told from the main character's perspective. Over the course of revising the second draft, I've asked myself this same question. I found that I wrote with a mixture of my voice and the character's voice. The voice that dominated depended on the scene. The more emotional the scene, the more it was dominated by the character's voice. When my voice was dominant, the scene was still told through the character's perspective. I never pulled back far enough to become omniscient.

I look at it like a movie camera. Sometimes I pull in real close to the character until I'm telling the story through his/her words. Sometimes I pull back and describe the action with my own voice. However, I never leave the character's perspective. The reader will only know what the character knows.

kal-el said:

I've read so much advice about how a writer should keep the voice consistent throughout a novel, but when people say this, they are referring to the author's voice, right?

Am I right in assuming that all 3rd person limited novels have an author's voice and a narrator's voice? Naturally, the narrator's voice is the main character's voice, right? But there is always the author's voice too, isn't there?

I understand that the narrator's voice must change if the main character changes, but the author's voice is the one that must remain consistent throughout the book, no matter who the main character is, right? All 3rd person limited novels have an author's voice too, don't they?

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In third limited, the narrator doesn't have a voice. They are, if you like, translating the character's emotions/actions, etc.
As soon as the narrator starts to have a personality, it becomes omni. Sure, we still might only be told as much as the character that we are following knows, but we are being led by a character who knows more than that.

Lady Ice said:

In third limited, the narrator doesn't have a voice. They are, if you like, translating the character's emotions/actions, etc.
As soon as the narrator starts to have a personality, it becomes omni. Sure, we still might only be told as much as the character that we are following knows, but we are being led by a character who knows more than that.

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I agree. But if they are translating, then there are choices about which kind of language to use, and that's what I mean by voice in this discussion. Must they use the exact vocabulary and phrasing that the character uses? Or is there almost a narrator's voice for a lot of it, omni totally aside?

It's hard to discuss! Language choice is different than an actual personality. I hated having to call it a narrator because of that; I agree with you that there is no separate entity at all unless it's omni. But there often is 'another' voice, imho.

At very least, I don't think you really have to use the exact language the character uses all the time, whatever you'd call that

backslashbaby said:

I agree. But if they are translating, then there are choices about which kind of language to use, and that's what I mean by voice in this discussion. Must they use the exact vocabulary and phrasing that the character uses? Or is there almost a narrator's voice for a lot of it, omni totally aside?

It's hard to discuss! Language choice is different than an actual personality. I hated having to call it a narrator because of that; I agree with you that there is no separate entity at all unless it's omni. But there often is 'another' voice, imho.

At very least, I don't think you really have to use the exact language the character uses all the time, whatever you'd call that

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Yes, for it to be well done and not have authorial intrusion I believe that you have to use the language that the character would use.

Otherwise it is NOT from that character's Point-of-View. It is from the author's.

Albannach said:

Yes, for it to be well done and not have authorial intrusion I believe that you have to use the language that the character would use.

Otherwise it is NOT from that character's Point-of-View. It is from the author's.

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My POV never enters my work, actually, because I'm not nearly interesting enough for any of it But I do write me some awesome narrators

Pulling back is certainly possible in 3rd person limited. But that relates to how much of the PoV character's emotions and thoughts are conveyed not jumping into an authorial voice in my opinion. There is no way you can use an authorial voice and not violate the PoV at least to some degree. Nor do I see any advantage in even subtly reminding the reader that they are not experiencing what the PoV character is experiencing.

Albannach said:

Pulling back is certainly possible in 3rd person limited. But that relates to how much of the PoV character's emotions and thoughts are conveyed not jumping into an authorial voice in my opinion. There is no way you can use an authorial voice and not violate the PoV at least to some degree. Nor do I see any advantage in even subtly reminding the reader that they are not experiencing what the PoV character is experiencing.

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I think authorial voice is present no matter what. Stephen King writes great characters using 3rd person, but no matter how much the writing sounds like the character, I still know I'm reading Stephen King (sometimes it sounds like King himself is talking to the reader). His characters still reflect his voice and style. Even someone like Chuck Palahniuk who writes in the 1st person allows his own voice to seep through. When I pull away from the character in my own writing, I'm not talking to the reader as the author. I'm just not writing deep in that character's thoughts.

Let me give an example. In the first part of my story the MC is ten years old. I don't want the entire narrative to sound like it's coming from a child. Sometimes I pull in and write close to the character's own words. Sometimes, like in the case of certain descriptions, I use my own voice since that part of the story takes place in the early nineties and I want to build atmosphere. I'm describing things the MC might not notice otherwise for that purpose. I keep fancy vocabulary out of the narrative though, since a child wouldn't use those words.

Hopefully I'm explaining myself clearly.