I'm, in, comma, hell...Please, rescue, me, (I mean, . )

mellymel

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Seriously, can anyone direct me towards a good site regarding the use commas. It seems like such a stupid, basic, punctuation mark, yet it's giving me great frustration. I have googled a couple of sites, but they're only confusing me more. I read the examples, but then when I'm writing, I come across a sentence that I THINK requires a comma but second guess myself. I don't want to overuse the darn thing either.

Thanks,

Mel
 

TheIT

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Take a look at the "Frequently Asked Questions" thread stickied to the top of the "Grammar and Syntax" forum. There are links in there to several threads on comma usage. I think some of those threads have links to other grammar references.
 

Maryn

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Good suggestions all, above me, mellymel. Lots of writers who are uncertain about commas find that stems from not knowing what makes an independent or dependent clause, what makes a phrase restrictive or not, and all the stuff behind the comma rules.

Go over that material slowly enough that it sinks in, and your comma confusion may lighten more than it would just studying the rules for commas.

Maryn, okay with commas but with plenty of her own weaknesses
 

DeadlyAccurate

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And to confuse you even more, sometimes a sentence that would technically require a comma may not have one because the writer wants to eliminate the mental pause for the sake of pacing. I'm having trouble thinking of a good example, but something like, "He wouldn't stop chasing me and I panicked." Depending on how the writer intends the sentence to be read, you might have a comma after "me," or you might leave it out. Usually the second clause has to be short to get away with breaking this rule.
 

Libbie

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You should read "Eats Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss. It's a short and wonderful book on punctuation with a strong focus on correct comma usage. Very funny and accessible. Makes learning punctuation fun!
 

Lady Ice

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Seriously, can anyone direct me towards a good site regarding the use commas. It seems like such a stupid, basic, punctuation mark, yet it's giving me great frustration. I have googled a couple of sites, but they're only confusing me more. I read the examples, but then when I'm writing, I come across a sentence that I THINK requires a comma but second guess myself. I don't want to overuse the darn thing either.

Thanks,

Mel

Commas:

Are used in a list: I bought cake, bread, and wine. This could also be a list of adjectives: You are the most idiotic, pretentious person I know.

Your problem is that you stuck a comma after pretentious; that doesn't need a comma. Person isn't part of the list of adjectives.

Or they can be used for clauses:
Mary said, not that it would make any difference, that she loved him.

You can also put clauses in using dashes or brackets.

Or perhaps you just want a pause:
I thought that he loved me, that he cared.
 

gothicangel

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Commas:

Or they can be used for clauses:
Mary said, not that it would make any difference, that she loved him.

When I got my bollocking at Uni I was told this is comma splicing.

If you are joining two [related] clauses it's a semi-colon.
 

DeadlyAccurate

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No, there's nothing wrong with that example. A comma splice is two complete sentences separated by a comma. Only the first clause in that example can exist on its own as a complete sentence.

Mary said she loved him, I said I hated him. <-- comma splice

Another way to write Lady Ice's sentence would be:

Mary said--not that it would make any difference--that she loved him.
--or--
Mary said (not that it would make any difference), that she loved him.
 
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Maryn

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DeadlyAccurate is--you're ahead of me here, aren't you?--deadly accurate.

Maryn, nodding her agreement
 

Terie

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Depends.

When I got pulled up from a tutor for comma splicing, I was using a comma when it should have been a semi-colon.

In your defence, comma splicing is incredibly common in UK publishing. I see it all the time in newpapers, magazines, formal web sites, and even many MANY books, both fiction and non-fiction.

I see it sooooo much in British publications that I finally looked it up in my Oxford English Grammar book to find out if it was just another difference between British and American usage. And according to Oxford, the comma splice is incorrect usage.

I'm not sure why it's so much more common to find comma splices in published works in the UK than in the US. It's really rather a curiosity!
 

Deleted member 42

When I got my bollocking at Uni I was told this is comma splicing.

If you are joining two [related] clauses it's a semi-colon.

Comma splices only occur when they are used between two independent clauses, that is, clauses that have a subject and a verb, and could be sentences, or independent clauses linked by a semicolon.
 

Deleted member 42

You should read "Eats Shoots & Leaves" by Lynne Truss. It's a short and wonderful book on punctuation with a strong focus on correct comma usage. Very funny and accessible. Makes learning punctuation fun!

It's also UK/British English, and while funny, is extremely idiosyncratic, and not to be relied on for anything you submit.
 

Samantha's_Song

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It's because they stopped teaching proper punctuation here, in England at least, in around the 1960's. English language was the only subject I liked at school, so I never missed a lesson, but we never got taught punctuation in it. I also read a whole lot but never actually noticed the punctuation. I still put many more commas than I need to in things, but thankfully can edit them out in my MSs. We also never did grammar at school here either - I learned about grammar rules from studying French in 2000, other than that I had never heard of 'grammar' and its rules until then.
I'm not sure why it's so much more common to find comma splices in published works in the UK than in the US. It's really rather a curiosity!
 

Jamesaritchie

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Buy a copy of Strunk & White. It's called "the writer's Bible" for a reason. It contains all the basic comma rules.

I'd avoid the online version. It's not the same book, and about three fourths of what Elements does best isn't in there.
 

ishtar'sgate

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Seriously, can anyone direct me towards a good site regarding the use commas. It seems like such a stupid, basic, punctuation mark, yet it's giving me great frustration. I have googled a couple of sites, but they're only confusing me more. I read the examples, but then when I'm writing, I come across a sentence that I THINK requires a comma but second guess myself. I don't want to overuse the darn thing either.

Thanks,

Mel
I feel your pain. I use wa-a-y too many according to my editor. I hear sentences in my head and insert commas where I pause. Apparently that's not done much anymore. I can see a pile of places in your post where my editor would have nixed the commas. I still have to watch it. Must be a disease - commaitis maybe?:D
 

gothicangel

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Comma splices only occur when they are used between two independent clauses, that is, clauses that have a subject and a verb, and could be sentences, or independent clauses linked by a semicolon.

I think the reason he pulled me up about it because his research area is medieval manuscripts. He can read [and speak] in Latin and Old English.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I feel your pain. I use wa-a-y too many according to my editor. I hear sentences in my head and insert commas where I pause. Apparently that's not done much anymore. I can see a pile of places in your post where my editor would have nixed the commas. I still have to watch it. Must be a disease - commaitis maybe?:D


I've seen the advice to place commas where you pause, but it's horrible advice, and it never did work. Dave Barry did a hilarious video segment about trying to use a comma where you would pause.

I just did a quick read of that first post, and no editor should remove any of the commas, unless I'm overlooking something from sheer sleepiness. Commas follow rules, and Mel got the rules correct.
 

bluebell80

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I've worked with a lot of non-fiction writers working in the magazine style website writing, and I can tell you there are two extremes, too many commas and not enough.

Putting commas everywhere you'd pause may not be the best advice, because a lot of people pause a lot when they are reading and writing. It is better to understand why the comma should or shouldn't be used, rather than to just guess at it. That might mean reviewing grade school grammar, but at least your work won't look like it was written by someone who hasn't a clue.

There will always be times when you question the use, or lack there of, of a comma. Make friends with a grammar nazi, that's your best bet!
 

Jamesaritchie

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It isn't about too many or too few, it's about proper use. If the rule says put a comma in, you put a comma in. If the rule says leave a comma out, you leave a comma out.
 

alatenwillson

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It's been my experience that comma use is almost always a subtle affair. At times, a comma that at other times would be utterly necessary is dispensable.

The purpose of commas is to make clear the meaning of a sentence. If a comma only obfuscates the meaning, it should be discarded.

There are two helpful guides (but they should be used with reason):

1. Read it aloud. Commas should be placed where in normal speech a pause exists.
2. Take a step back, look at the comma, and if the comma looks ill-placed or unnecessary, drop it.

The most common use of the comma is for the joining of two independent clauses that are linked by a conjunction.

Commas also appear to separate appositive clauses and adverbial (and sometimes prepositional) clauses at the beginning of the sentence.

The main rubric for comma-use is: does the clause that's separated out by the comma refer to the surrounding clauses restrictively or non-restrictively. Meaning that if the clause weren't in the sentence at all, would the other clauses make sense or not?

i.e. I had gone to the place where I once lived, to reclaim my past.
I had gone home, where I have lived for the past 15 years.

In the first sentence, the only way you could excise the 'where' clause is if the place being spoken of were implied by previous sentences. Otherwise, since the 'where' clause is necessary for the meaning of the preceding clause, it should not be separated from it by a comma. The first two clauses are complete together and would not be meaningless if the last clause were left off. Therefore, this last clause is nonrestrictive and needs to be separated by a comma.

In the second sentence, the first clause is complete in meaning. The adverbial clause only adds further definition.

Of course, there are other rules, some of them very weird. For example, normally you would not put a comma before 'but' unless it were conjoining two independent clauses:

i.e. I have tried to explain myself, but I'm not sure I'm being clear.
I have explained myself but without clarity.

This second sentence, however, could bear a comma before 'but.' This is because the two clauses introduce a tone of opposition. Similarly, we would write, 'I am typing now, not surfing.'

Strunk recommends always including a comma before but, but I think that would disrupt the flow of many sentences. So, I try to be careful with 'but' commas.

Another odd rule is that when 'so,' 'thus,' 'then,' etc. begins a sentence, there should be a comma after it. Sometimes this is the case, sometimes not.

i.e. So, if you want me to buy you some chips, you're going to have to give me some money.
So he ran down to get me chips.

In the first sentence, 'so' is more of a colloquial delay-word. In the second, it's more adverbial in tone.

Then, could you remind me tomorrow, because I may forget.
Then he reminded me, because I had forgotten.

Also remember that a comma should always be used to separate conditionals.

Anyway, there are many other nuances, but the rule of restrictive and non-restrictive clauses is most critical for the understanding of comma-use.

Happy practicing.
 
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