Ethical debate over finding alien life ...

I smell a "prime directive" story. >.> <.< >.>

Personally I don't think anyone would give a crap if we displaced an alien microorganism from it's natural habitat - someone would have a sample of it alive in a lab somewhere, that's good enough. Pretty much the same thing for a plant or invertebrate - as long as some are living somewhere it doesn't matter if we remove them from places where they are in the way. It's pretty much only animals or sentient beings there's any point being concerned about treating them ethically.

I highly doubt anybody would give a damn about any microorganism either. Who cares what will happen in a few billion years? Everybody will have been long dead and forgotten by then, and the microorganism's species might even go extinct for unrelated reasons. Also, not every environment with microorganisms will grow macroorganisms, and there's no way of knowing how likely a sapient lifeform is.

Heck, the sun might even be burnt out after a couple billion years.

I'm guessing the line will probably be sapience. Then you come to the real question. How does one determine sapience? Not all aliens will be easy to comunicate with humanoids with a learnable language. What if their language is unable to be replicated by humans, and sounds like animal calls? Or if their language is nonverbal? One could capture them and hook their brain up to a machine, but by that point you've already violated one of them, and what if he was like a king?

Expanding from the way humanity treats each other and the animal and plant life on this planet, i doubt very much that any type of alien life would be given special consideration beyond fancy words and edicts.

When it comes down to it, if humans wanted whatever the alien planet had they'd take it.

Yeah, there'd be groups much like Greenpeace and PETA and such, but they'd likely have as much actual say and influence as they do today.

In one of my WIPs, the human race (forced by an extinction event) heads off to find an Earth-like planet. When they do find one, it's inhabited by two sentient life-forms: one a humanoid alien, and one a squid-like alien. The humans on board (largely forced by a coup) decide to kill/enslave the humanoids while working alongside the squid-aliens because the humanoids take up valuable land.

I think it depends upon your characters. In my decision process, I have characters both for and against the genocide; it's just that those for the genocide get to the guns first.

I think our reaction would depend on the alien(s), mainly centered around whether the lifeforms seemed intelligent in a manner we could observe and attempt to deal with or not. It also would depend on which of our cultures found this planet, i.e. I would expect some differences depending on whether Chinese or Indians or Americans found the planet.

One word: Pandora.

NASA has taken care to sterilize things such as the Mars rovers, as a living microorganism from Earth might well grow on Mars and displace any existing Martian life.

But the concern here isn't ethical at all. If there's any life on Mars, scientists want to study it as-is rather than inadvertently contaminate or destroy it. It's only due to people's "selfish" quest for knowledge.

But all these are just "what-if" scenarios so far. As far as I know, no life has been found anywhere that hasn't come from Earth. Other than perhaps microbes on another planet or moon in the Solar System, I don't expect that to change in the foreseeable furture.

small axe said:

I'm just wondering to hear various folks' viewpoints on the issue:

Suppose we send a probe to Mars, or Europa, or an alien planet ... and discover alien life there.

What ethical or moral (or I suppose scientific or economic or cultural) limits do you think that imposes on us?

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Actually, the scientific limits would be that a Martian microorganism might not be brought to Earth, but perhaps only brought to Earth orbit where a scientist/astronaut would study it. Ethical concerns would really start if it infected that person who became sick and needed to come back to Earth to

small axe said:

Are we obligated to totally abandon a planet, to prevent possible contamination or harm to its native life?

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Yes, but again, the reasons would be more "practical," involving the expansion of human knowledge, than ethical - to be able to study that life the best we could as it is. Any contaminaton could reduce how much we could learn about it.

small axe said:

Is there a criteria to what complexity of alien life needs to be protected, and what does not?

For instance, is it alright to kill an alien DISEASE microbe to protect our human crews or colonists ... considering that alien microbe + a few billion years means an alien Intelligent species?

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That last question is a bit of a stretch, but there have been life on Earth that has been intentionally destroyed (we're literally talking genocide). I forget what, if it was the Polio virus or what - it was something like that, a devastating virus for humans. The CDC had the only known sample of a disease-causing virus that had not been seen in the field for many years, and it had been declared eradicated. It was a controversial decision to destroy the one remaining sample, and I see the point against it, though for scientific rather than technical reasons, it should be kept to be studied. I doubt we knew everything we could have learned from it when it was destroyed.

small axe said:

After all, we kill Earth germs without a thought, even "good people" kill cows without a thought (well, our governments kill other people without a thought) ...

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Governments do EVERYTHING they do without a thought, but that's getting off topic, and having seen what happened with other recent threads, we sure don't want to go off topic, do we ...

small axe said:

Can you reasonably expect humans to respect ALIEN life?
Could it be that finding alien life would make us suddenly realize that even EARTH life is precious (if not 'sacred') and must be protected, even at economic or scientific sacrifice to ourselves ???

More importantly, WHAT EVENT do you think it would take to make the human race say: "We must protect alien lifeforms, even if it costs us dearly" ???

Has culture or consciousness changed enough, from our ancestors who wiped out Indian tribes, or today massacre elephants or mountain gorillas?

What could change us?

Is it even a conversation worth having?

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I'm not sure how to respond to this, but your tone seems quite negative toward humankind, and also it seems you're tossing together lots of things that don't necessarily fit together.

benbradley said:

That last question is a bit of a stretch, but there have been life on Earth that has been intentionally destroyed (we're literally talking genocide). I forget what, if it was the Polio virus or what...

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I believe you are thinking about smallpox

GeorgeK said:

I believe you are thinking about smallpox

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Yep, and frozen live smallpox samples still exist in both the US and Russia. It's been eradicated in the wild but it isn't all gone.

small axe said:

For instance, is it alright to kill an alien DISEASE microbe to protect our human crews or colonists ... considering that alien microbe + a few billion years means an alien Intelligent species?

After all, we kill Earth germs without a thought, even "good people" kill cows without a thought (well, our governments kill other people without a thought) ...

Can you reasonably expect humans to respect ALIEN life?
Could it be that finding alien life would make us suddenly realize that even EARTH life is precious (if not 'sacred') and must be protected, even at economic or scientific sacrifice to ourselves ???

More importantly, WHAT EVENT do you think it would take to make the human race say: "We must protect alien lifeforms, even if it costs us dearly" ???

Has culture or consciousness changed enough, from our ancestors who wiped out Indian tribes, or today massacre elephants or mountain gorillas?

What could change us?

Is it even a conversation worth having?

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Change us into what?

So many groups (PETA for example) would love to see the human species living in isolation from all other species on earth. It's just not possible. We are part of the web of nematodes, viruses, mountain gorillas and cows. Sometimes we kill those things for survival (self defense or food) and sometimes they kill us. That's the way things will always be because something always has to die for another thing to live.

That doesn't mean we need to kill things with glee. I do agree that there ought to be an inherent respect for the things going on, and if we know something has to die then it should be done in the most painless stress free way possible.

There ought to be some sort of guideline about whether the displacement or deaths of a group of organisms is worth the benefit gained. Money shouldn't be the biggest motivating factor, but unfortunately it is. I think that any time human lives are involved they should automatically trump any monetary figure, but it obviously doesn't work that way. If there are people who don't value their own species above personal profit, then how can someone expect them to put any value on alien species?

On the subject of taking the lives of other people and comparably sentient beings, I feel it is totally unnecessary and reprehensible. Personally I won't eat anything that has the potential to outlive or outsmart me (so no turtles, octopi, whales, or elephants, etc.).

Morally I'd feel obliged to at least monitor the planet, Axe -- and of course curiosity motivates the same answer.

I think one can't really make a moral decision about contact until one understands the potential impacts in both directions. But if there were contact, I think the most sensible and ethical approach would be to stage it in safe go/no-go steps.

If the contact were involuntary then that's a different matter. I think that one's first responsibility is to safety of self and fellows, then safety of others, then mutual benefit.

Reframe the question.

Suppose there was silicon-based, single cell life forms discovered tomorrow in shale oil deposits, which are killed by the mining and refining process. What is our obligation to that life, if any? Putting the aliens far away distances the severity of what you ask. It is easy to let the scientists do whatever they want on Mars. We aren't on Mars. Our need for the resources of Mars is conceptual.

Oil, though... That's better place to find an alien. I don't think we'd suddenly stop drinking dry the well over a few mysterious, microscopic life forms. I don't think any ethicist who wants to keep his job would suggest it.

Now, if that life were alien and intelligent in a way we can percieve and they beg us to stop destroying their inky, black homes...? Do the drillings stop. Do the roads stop. Do the tanks stop. Do the engines of the world grind down because something in the oil is an intelligent life form?

Maybe they would grind down, but there would be a lot of ethicists and people who would insist that we destroy the enemies of human civilization for a while as we make a nice, safe, happy transition into solar or wind power, complaining all the way.

I think that's a very interesting point. And I recomend that you watch, if you have not already, District 9, which deals with this issue.

It' pretty thought provoking though, what to do.

badducky said:

Reframe the question.

Suppose there was silicon-based, single cell life forms discovered tomorrow in shale oil deposits, which are killed by the mining and refining process. What is our obligation to that life, if any? Putting the aliens far away distances the severity of what you ask. It is easy to let the scientists do whatever they want on Mars. We aren't on Mars. Our need for the resources of Mars is conceptual.

Oil, though... That's better place to find an alien. I don't think we'd suddenly stop drinking dry the well over a few mysterious, microscopic life forms. I don't think any ethicist who wants to keep his job would suggest it.

Now, if that life were alien and intelligent in a way we can percieve and they beg us to stop destroying their inky, black homes...? Do the drillings stop. Do the roads stop. Do the tanks stop. Do the engines of the world grind down because something in the oil is an intelligent life form?

Maybe they would grind down, but there would be a lot of ethicists and people who would insist that we destroy the enemies of human civilization for a while as we make a nice, safe, happy transition into solar or wind power, complaining all the way.

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That'd make a great sci-fi story. Communal intelligence in oil-dwelling microbes leads to massive conflict over oil use which leads human civilization without fossil fuels. If I only I was good at that high concept sort of sf.

small axe said:

I'm just wondering to hear various folks' viewpoints on the issue:

Suppose we send a probe to Mars, or Europa, or an alien planet ... and discover alien life there.

What ethical or moral (or I suppose scientific or economic or cultural) limits do you think that imposes on us?

Are we obligated to totally abandon a planet, to prevent possible contamination or harm to its native life?

Click to expand...

I think we would take a small sample of the alien life, study it as someone else said on a space station (we would never bring it to earth) and monitor the planet from orbit with visits down to collect more samples every so often. But for the most part we would leave it alone. It is not our planet to ravish, and I think we have learned something since the times of colonizing the Americas.

Maybe I am overly optimistic, but I think if industry or a government wanted to exploit the planet, there is enough of us that would care to effectively stop them. The only exception is if our own planet was in peril that without those resources our species or life on earth would end. In that case, we would take over the planet if we could.

Is there a criteria to what complexity of alien life needs to be protected, and what does not?

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No, even the smallest alien life would be protected as long as we recognized it as a lifeform.

For instance, is it alright to kill an alien DISEASE microbe to protect our human crews or colonists ... considering that alien microbe + a few billion years means an alien Intelligent species?

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Absolutely. Why would we let people die to save an alien life form? If the alien lifeform has infected a human, then it's path to becoming an intelligent species has already been altered. We would not eradicate the alien life form, but we would kill the ones infecting humans.

After all, we kill Earth germs without a thought, even "good people" kill cows without a thought (well, our governments kill other people without a thought) ...

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I don't think we kill anything without a thought. We do so for very specific purposes. We kill germs to save people (hey those germs can KILL us), we kill cows to eat them. You personally may not agree with eating meat but would you expect a lion to not kill a zebra? As for killing other people without thought, ummm we could nuke the entire Middle East but we don't. I agree that we may not respect life as much as we should, but to say we kill without thought is ridiculous.

Can you reasonably expect humans to respect ALIEN life?

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We absolutely will respect alien life for no other reason then out of fear. But I think we would for other reasons as well. We, life in general is alone in the Universe. I think that we would feel a kinship to any discovered alien life.

Could it be that finding alien life would make us suddenly realize that even EARTH life is precious (if not 'sacred') and must be protected, even at economic or scientific sacrifice to ourselves ???

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I think there are people who believe life is sacred and those who don't. I am not sure if finding an alien life form would change that.

More importantly, WHAT EVENT do you think it would take to make the human race say: "We must protect alien lifeforms, even if it costs us dearly" ???

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I am not sure what you mean by dearly, but I don't think we would let our entire species to be destroyed to save a few alien forms. I see it as save humans first then other life forms this goes for life on earth as well as alien.

Has culture or consciousness changed enough, from our ancestors who wiped out Indian tribes, or today massacre elephants or mountain gorillas?

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I think we have changed, at least the majority of us. I don't see us wiping out or taking over land from other life forms (especially if it sentient) for personal gain. It would have to be an "it is us or them" situation before we would do anything like what was done to the Native Americans.

Suppose we send a probe to Mars, or Europa, or an alien planet ... and discover alien life there.
What ethical or moral (or I suppose scientific or economic or cultural) limits do you think that imposes on us?

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Well, you normally will have three types of people meddling with another planet, really.

1. Religious - wanting to convert whoever to their religion
2. Scientific - wants to discover more biologically with the planet/people
3. Money Makers - people that have invested money and want it back. They might find resources or cures for earthly diseases to make profit.

Are we obligated to totally abandon a planet, to prevent possible contamination or harm to its native life?

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Hahaha, no. No where in history have you ever seen people abandon a place because they thought it would harm native life. People in charge of space operations, in charge of countries want money and power. To have money, you have to have resources. To have power, you have to have people behind you. Most will not care about the culture of a planet. They will take what they want from it.

Is there a criteria to what complexity of alien life needs to be protected, and what does not?

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Depends. Do they have something we want? I assure you, we'll protect that ^_~. If they have worms that cure cancer, or if they have vitamins that enhance humans' minds. Better fuel? How about something as simple as diamonds, or a type of precious jewel.

For instance, is it alright to kill an alien DISEASE microbe to protect our human crews or colonists ... considering that alien microbe + a few billion years means an alien Intelligent species?

Click to expand...

Okay, so you're talking evolution. Let's say they have a mosquito. Does the mosquito do anything worth a damn? If yes, then I bet it would be "morally" wrong to kill it. If it was just an insect, pft -- swat that sucker.

A few billion years is going to effect those things. Not us. Not our money right now.

After all, we kill Earth germs without a thought, even "good people" kill cows without a thought (well, our governments kill other people without a thought) ...

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Exactly.

Can you reasonably expect humans to respect ALIEN life?

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Some -- sure. Most, no.

Could it be that finding alien life would make us suddenly realize that even EARTH life is precious (if not 'sacred') and must be protected, even at economic or scientific sacrifice to ourselves ???

Click to expand...

Very doubtful.

More importantly, WHAT EVENT do you think it would take to make the human race say: "We must protect alien lifeforms, even if it costs us dearly" ???

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There's a virus on the planet, and the only cure is from these lifeforms (maybe their blood, waste, something). Everyone is infected, and in order to live -- they have to rely on these aliens.

You can just go about anywhere with that. Just make sure it's an event that makes people save themselves, otherwise they just won't care.

Has culture or consciousness changed enough, from our ancestors who wiped out Indian tribes, or today massacre elephants or mountain gorillas?

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No. We just do it differently. We do it with money. Companies take out other companies in order to monopolize. Salesmen take sells away from their own coworkers for that commission check.

What could change us?

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The strong will survive. It's been true throughout the ages. Now, the strong is the smart. We do what's best for us, then we worry what's best for others. Do all? No. Just the majority. I'm not sure what could change that? Only example I've ever seen is religion.

Is it even a conversation worth having?

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^_^ Better than most conversations I see on these forums.

You do realize aliens are watching this thread, right?

GeorgeK said:

I believe you are thinking about smallpox

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Kitty Pryde said:

Yep, and frozen live smallpox samples still exist in both the US and Russia. It's been eradicated in the wild but it isn't all gone.

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Yes, that's it. Looking up the story, the last known samples of smallpox were scheduled to be destroyed but weren't:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Post-eradication

In 1986, the World Health Organization recommended destruction of the virus, and later set the date of destruction to be 30 December 1993. This was postponed to 30 June 1995.[56] In 2002 the policy of the WHO changed to be against its final destruction.[57] Destroying existing stocks would reduce the risk involved with ongoing smallpox research; the stocks are not needed to respond to a smallpox outbreak.[58] However, the stocks may be useful in developing new vaccines, antiviral drugs, and diagnostic tests.

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On to another post:

badducky said:

Reframe the question.

Suppose there was silicon-based, single cell life forms discovered tomorrow in shale oil deposits, which are killed by the mining and refining process. What is our obligation to that life, if any? Putting the aliens far away distances the severity of what you ask. It is easy to let the scientists do whatever they want on Mars. We aren't on Mars. Our need for the resources of Mars is conceptual.

Oil, though... That's better place to find an alien. I don't think we'd suddenly stop drinking dry the well over a few mysterious, microscopic life forms. I don't think any ethicist who wants to keep his job would suggest it.

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There's been a similar real-life controversy involving particular fish species that at the time was only known to exist where a hydroelectric plant was being built:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snail_darter_controversy

badducky said:

Now, if that life were alien and intelligent in a way we can percieve and they beg us to stop destroying their inky, black homes...? Do the drillings stop. Do the roads stop. Do the tanks stop. Do the engines of the world grind down because something in the oil is an intelligent life form?

Maybe they would grind down, but there would be a lot of ethicists and people who would insist that we destroy the enemies of human civilization for a while as we make a nice, safe, happy transition into solar or wind power, complaining all the way.

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Yes, even ethicists drive cars and use products made from oil and from the energy produced by oil.

It's interesting in that a lot of people (including me) would have a hard time believing a microscopic organism could be intelligent. I'd believe it with adequate evidence, but I wonder if the general public would. The Snail Darter, on the other hand, is a small fish like a guppy or goldfish that many people have in fishbowls or home aquariums. About the only "home use" of microscopic life is using yeast to make bread or beer. Perhaps the politicians would get it, but they would be torn as what to do, as stopping the use of oil would be a hard sell to the public.

Even if the US suddenly stopped pumping and buying oil, and stopped buying things made from oil or made with energy derived from oil, what would we do to other countries which continued to pump oil (as in the Middle East) and continued to use oil (as in China, though if we stopped buying from them, I don't know who their other customers would be)? We would already have become very isolationist, upsetting a lot of people (such as China which owns lots of US Government debt). Would we go as far as starting a war to stop others from using oil?

Or would we actually stop using oil? We couldn't without a lot of people starving to death. I could see a cap-and-trade system put in place in an effort to reduce oil consumption.

This is a question I personally do not believe will be answered for generations to come, if ever, as presented.

More than likely, if anything, aliens will find us first and make their presence know, either actively, or passively. Once this happens, how everyone thinks changes; governments, religions, military and corporate thinking. Why? Because then we will know we are not the big fish in ocean anymore.

I still think the aliens are watching this thread to see how we react, ... lol.

thothguard51 said:

This is a question I personally do not believe will be answered for generations to come, if ever, as presented.

More than likely, if anything, aliens will find us first and make their presence know, either actively, or passively. Once this happens, how everyone thinks changes; governments, religions, military and corporate thinking. Why? Because then we will know we are not the big fish in ocean anymore.

I still think the aliens are watching this thread to see how we react, ... lol.

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Oh, we are. And we are not happy.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Oh, we are. And we are not happy.

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Aliens also have a habit of referring to themselves in the royal plural. Mainly to make us think there're more of them than there really are.

Five, at last count, and four of them are really just one alien with three heads and an extra bladder. An external bladder. That talks.

Izz said:

Aliens also have a habit of referring to themselves in the royal plural. Mainly to make us think there're more of them than there really are.

Five, at last count, and four of them are really just one alien with three heads and an extra bladder. An external bladder. That talks.

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No, no, that's ridiculous. There are at least two of us with one head and no extra bladders.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

No, no, that's ridiculous. There are at least two of us with one head and no extra bladders.

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Alien double-talk. Don't listen to it.

thothguard51 said:

I still think the aliens are watching this thread to see how we react, ... lol.

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If they're watching this thread they already understand human nature. And that some people are exceptions. And that we're complicated and annoying. And if we can eff it up, we will. ^_^ The thread won't be new to them.