Setting the time and location in scenes and chapters

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

Hello

I have a few questions I hope you can help me with as I've reached a bit of a dilemma in my novel (which is the first book I've ever written). I would appreciate any kind of help with the following:

1. When do you think is the best time to establish the setting of a story? I've read quite a few novels where one would have no idea what place or country the story is being told from until one reaches chapter 2 or 3 or 4! I have established my setting in chapter 2 (about 20 pages into my story).

2. Do you think it's important to establish the time in every new scene/chapter? And what's the best way to go about keeping track of dates do you think? I'm just a little confused as to when I should let my readers know what time it is in my story, and when the best time is to choose a scene break and a chapter break. In Dean Koontz's novel Relentless, he breaks chapters in the middle of action which I found this quite unusual (although not off-putting). I'm also a little confused about when I should use scene breaks and when I should use chapter breaks. I've seen authors start a new day in their story with just a new paragraph and I think it sucks. Shouldn't a jump in time (say an hour or so) always start with a new scene/chapter?

3. I have reached a point in my novel (which is 3rd person limited), where I want to write about two different characters from their own POVs in two different scenes, but these scenes happen at the same time in my story. Is it ok to go back in time (a few hours perhaps) in a new scene/chapter, or should you always keep it moving forward as far as time and dates are concerned? Basically, I have one scene that starts at 1pm and ends at 4pm, and I want the scene after to start at 1pm and finish at 5pm on the same day. Any ideas about what's cool and what's not?

I hope I've made myself clear enough. Thank you very much for listening and helping.

FOTSGreg · Jan 30, 2010

You establish scene, time, and setting differently for every novel, but you do it in a manner that "shows" rather than "tells" the reader.

For example, saying something like "Egypt: 1649 BC" is telling. Starting a book with a scene of a dog running across a bright white arctic landscape while being pursued by men in a helicopter is showing if you describe it properly.

EclipsesMuse · Jan 30, 2010

I don't think it's necessary to present the exact time or year into a novel, unless it is prevalent to the story.as long as we know it is day or night, morning afternoon even, you should be fine.

I like it when settings are presented by characters interacting with them.It seems more natural to me.

As for showing multiple Povs happen at same time, I don't see a problem with it. I say write and see if it works.

Collectonian · Jan 30, 2010

It really depends on the novel. In one of mine, I set the story in the opening chapter because the character is driving home from another state. In another, I both have a character deduce where he is and use a header to specifically give the location. In its case, knowing the setting is an important context for it, so I felt it was important to do this step.

I do not think its necessarily important to set the time/date in every scene or chapter, only where its relevant. Now, out of novel, I keep a calendar to help me know when each bits of story take place, primarily for accuracy and ensuring I'm moving things along well. It should be established in the novel, when its important. For example, if a character was due somewhere in the afternoon, but they aren't there by nightfall, establishing that is important. For day of week/month, again, stick to when its relevant.

More than anything, though, focus on just getting it written to the end. Save heavy thinking on if it should be a scene/chapter/etc breaks and the like for when you're editing

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

Mmm ... I'm surprised at these responses and also very grateful for them. I thought it would have been essential, in a novel, to establish the year at least though?

Oh well, just goes to show what I know.

Any thoughts on the best way to decide on either a scene break or a chapter break? I know it's probably a silly question for many here. Most of the time I feel I'm making the right choice when choosing between the two, but there are times when I'm just not sure.

And is it common in novels for a scene/chapter to end at a specific time, whilst the next one jumps back a few hours but not necessarily as early as the one before started?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge in this area.

Linda Adams · Jan 30, 2010

It sounds a little like you might be overthinking this. Let's start with: You're not going to get this wrong. Some stories have the dates and times mapped out in great detail, like James Rollins' books. Some stories never mention the time and date. It's your choice--whatever you think your book needs.

Scenes can happen at the same time. All you need to do is start a new scene or a new chapter. Just look at some of the big thrillers where they have three storylines going on at the same time. The authors generally just do a chapter break. Some might mention location at the top of the chapter--again, individual preference.

If you are having trouble juggling your timeline, you might try a Gantt chart to help give you a visual view of it. I did one to cover the first four days in my book. I just drew four columns, one for each day, and wrote in the events that occurred on each day. I did it in pencil so I could rearrange a couple of them, but you could use Excel, PowerPoint, stickies, or even a whiteboard. Here's an article on Fold-Out Timelines. I didn't do this level of detail--I was more high level. Just remember that there isn't any right way or wrong way to do this--just that it works for you.

kal-el · Jan 30, 2010

Linda Adams said:
It sounds a little like you might be overthinking this. Let's start with: You're not going to get this wrong. Some stories have the dates and times mapped out in great detail, like James Rollins' books. Some stories never mention the time and date. It's your choice--whatever you think your book needs.

Scenes can happen at the same time. All you need to do is start a new scene or a new chapter. Just look at some of the big thrillers where they have three storylines going on at the same time. The authors generally just do a chapter break. Some might mention location at the top of the chapter--again, individual preference.

If you are having trouble juggling your timeline, you might try a Gantt chart to help give you a visual view of it. I did one to cover the first four days in my book. I just drew four columns, one for each day, and wrote in the events that occurred on each day. I did it in pencil so I could rearrange a couple of them, but you could use Excel, PowerPoint, stickies, or even a whiteboard. Here's an article on Fold-Out Timelines. I didn't do this level of detail--I was more high level. Just remember that there isn't any right way or wrong way to do this--just that it works for you.

This is so helpful, thank you so so much!

Krintar · Jan 30, 2010

kal-el said:
Mmm ... I'm surprised at these responses and also very grateful for them. I thought it would have been essential, in a novel, to establish the year at least though?

Read a bunch of novels you like and ask yourself: Do they specify the year they take place in? If they do, would it make a difference if they were a year earlier or later? Two years? Five?
For most books, one of those will be a 'no'. Does it matter in your specific instance? Depends on the story. Tell us the year if you think it's important.

kal-el said:
And is it common in novels for a scene/chapter to end at a specific time, whilst the next one jumps back a few hours but not necessarily as early as the one before started?

If you're jumping PoVs, then yes, it is quite common. Otherwise no - but don't let that stop you. Just because it's uncommon doesn't mean it won't work for you, so give it a try and find out if you're so inclined.

megan_d · Jan 30, 2010

A point to remember is that if you make the year your novel is set in explicitly clear it will date it. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's something to keep in mind.

willietheshakes · Jan 30, 2010

I think it depends on the book.

For Before I Wake, I left the year vague early on, though it emerged gradually that it was 1996. That was important textually, because of the blizzard that ends the book.

For the new book, the first words are "Seattle, 1977". This is to clearly delineate the prologue from the main text (which starts with the words "Victoria, 2007").

Stunted · Jan 30, 2010

EclipsesMuse said:
I like it when settings are presented by characters interacting with them.

Me too.

RJK · Jan 31, 2010

While writing my first novel, I got terribly mixed up with timelines. I needed to rewrite many scenes to straighten out the order of things.
The way I do things now, is to label each scene with a description. I give each scene a Heading (level 3, Chapters are level 1). I describe the where, what and when in the heading.
i.e # INT. Susan Worthington’s house 1925 College Avenue Tue 6/24 1330
I use the "Document Map" feature in Word. this provides a detailed interactive table of contents on the left side of the computer screen. I can find any scene, click on the document map and jump to that scene.
If necessary, I can cut and paste a scene to another spot in the novel. No need to scroll to find the new location, just click on the scene in the Document Map and Word will jump to that spot.
If these scene descriptions are distracting, you can change the Font color to white. You won't see the heading in the MS, but the Document Map will continue to display your descriptive headings.
When the time comes to submit the MS to an agent, make a copy and delete the headings from the version you submit, or just leave the headings there, in white font.

job · Jan 31, 2010

kal-el said:
1. When do you think is the best time to establish the setting of a story? I've read quite a few novels where one would have no idea what place or country the story is being told from until one reaches chapter 2 or 3 or 4!

Let the reader know where she is before she wonders about it.

Setting the scene is one of those bits of business you have to get out of the way as soon as possible. Name of characters, physical and emotional description of characters, and basic world building are some others.

kal-el said:
2. Do you think it's important to establish the time in every new scene/chapter?

If it matters, yes.
If the time is fairly obvious and it doesn't matter much, no.

kal-el said:
And what's the best way to go about keeping track of dates do you think?

I keep a detailed chart.

kal-el said:
I'm just a little confused as to when I should let my readers know what time it is in my story,

When it matters.

kal-el said:
when the best time is to choose a scene break and a chapter break.

A scene ends when you've rounded out the action. When you're achieved what you wanted to accomplish with the scene. When you come to a good stopping place. When any additional action does not affect the ongoing story.

A chapter usually contains one or more complete scenes, so it ends when you come to the end of the last of these scenes.

In some cases, a chapter break comes in the middle of a scene. In this case you pick a spot that holds a logical 'lead on' across the chapter break.

kal-el said:
In Dean Koontz's novel Relentless, he breaks chapters in the middle of action which I found this quite unusual (although not off-putting).

Cutting scenes with chapter breaks is not all that unusual. Sometimes a writer does this from the sheer length of the scenes.

Sometimes a writer does this to emphasize a particular moment in the scene.

An example of this would be;

The detective looked from the Professor to Lady Darlington, to the Butler, across the room to where Lady Janet and Roger stood side by side. He said, "I have completed my investigations. The killer is . . ."

Chapter Break

"Wait." Lady Janet broke away from Roger's restraining hold. "Wait. Let me explain."

In this case the chapter break is used to prolong a moment of suspense.

A chapter break can also be used to change POV within the same scene or to signal a change in the tone and attitude of the action.

Lots of reasons for chapter breaks.

kal-el said:
I'm also a little confused about when I should use scene breaks and when I should use chapter breaks

I tend to plan scenes so they will match chapter breaks. One scene = one chapter. This means I'll have some shorter chapters, some longer ones.

If I have a couple of short, closely related scenes, I'll put them into the same chapter.

And if you see a very short chapter, it'll be because I wanted to emphasize that scene.

kal-el said:
I've seen authors start a new day in their story with just a new paragraph and I think it sucks. Shouldn't a jump in time (say an hour or so) always start with a new scene/chapter?

A hiatus, with a # is another alternative. Fr'instance.

*********

She wrapped her legs about him and rode the storm. Rode the thunder. Masculine power jolted through her. Power unending. She took indescribable pleasure from him and arched back and cried out into the night.

#

Much later, when they were quietly side by side, snuggled against the cold that came in from the window, she lay her head upon his arm. Her last hours with him were slipping away. He would sleep soon. Then she must go.

***********

kal-el said:
3. I have one scene that starts at 1pm and ends at 4pm, and I want the scene after to start at 1pm and finish at 5pm on the same day. Any ideas about what's cool and what's not?

This happens a lot -- this business of wanting to do simultaneous scenes. Wanting to go back in time.
This is Very Difficult To Do.

It is better to stick to chronological order.

Lady Ice · Jan 31, 2010

Just tell the reader the place and time at the start, unless it is necessary for the writer to hold back. Please, please don't do this:

'What time is it, my good fellow' asked Bertie.
'5 o'clock. Isn't Paris lovely?'
'Yes. I have a feeling this year will be a good one'
'1992 does seem promising.'

If you can do it cleverly, fine, but this is so blatantly poorly-concealed info-dumping. Establish time and place and ground the reader into your story, your world. Don't stick it in too late, otherwise it looks like you just forgot.

Only give the time and date when it is relevant after the beginning. For example, if a scene is happening a year or so after the previous one and the circumstances have changed. Say character A is a millionaire in one scene; in the next scene he is broke but has a wife/girlfriend. The time period is important to how we view the event; if this is only a week or so after, we're thinking that this guy is still getting over the shock. However he must be pretty charming because he's got a girl. If it's 20 years after, a lot of time has passed.

Non-chronological can work if the whole story is (like 'The Good Soldier') but in a chronological story, it can just end up confusing. And this goes with narrative voice too. Unless there is a clear reason for you doing it...don't.

kal-el · Feb 2, 2010

My goodness. You guys really know you're stuff! This is so helpful and I'm very grateful to you all.

Thank you.

Albannach · Feb 2, 2010

FOTSGreg said:
You establish scene, time, and setting differently for every novel, but you do it in a manner that "shows" rather than "tells" the reader.

For example, saying something like "Egypt: 1649 BC" is telling. Starting a book with a scene of a dog running across a bright white arctic landscape while being pursued by men in a helicopter is showing if you describe it properly.

Many novels do exactly that: France, 1306. Otherwise you have to do something really dim like putting in a letter that starts with the date, nothing but thinly veiled telling anyway. A dog running across the tundra certainly won't give the date nor a helicopter or whatever. If the date is important, just tell it. There are times when telling is EXACTLY the right thing to do.

kal-el · Feb 2, 2010

Albannach said:
Many novels do exactly that: France, 1306. Otherwise you have to do something really dim like putting in a letter that starts with the date, nothing but thinly veiled telling anyway. A dog running across the tundra certainly won't give the date nor a helicopter or whatever. If the date is important, just tell it. There are times when telling is EXACTLY the right thing to do.

Hmmm. In Salem's Lot, Stephen King tells the date and the year in just the second sentence of chapter one.
Obviously, what's needed and what's not must surely depend on the book.

shaldna · Feb 3, 2010

The balance should be somewhere between making your reader aware of location and date/time and telling them in every scene.

Once you have established where the novel is set, and, if relevant, when, then assume the reader can follow.

kal-el · Feb 3, 2010

What if I wanted to jump forward a few years in a new chapter? Say I was writing about a 10 year old boy, and then that part of the novel ends and I want the next part to jump forward to when he's ... say ... 21?

I would section the book into parts then wouldn't I? And if I was to do this, would I just write something like "Part 2 (11 years later)" on a blank page by itself, and then restart restart the chapters on the next page or something?

DennisB · Feb 3, 2010

Lady Ice said:
Just tell the reader the place and time at the start, unless it is necessary for the writer to hold back. Please, please don't do this:

'What time is it, my good fellow' asked Bertie.
'5 o'clock. Isn't Paris lovely?'
'Yes. I have a feeling this year will be a good one'
'1992 does seem promising.'

IF you do it once, fine. (But it has to fit!) If you resort to that every chapter, good Lord!!!

Techno-thrillers traditionally start each chapter with setting and time (and in Zulu, at that!).

DennisB · Feb 3, 2010

DennisB said:
Lady Ice said:

Just tell the reader the place and time at the start, unless it is necessary for the writer to hold back. Please, please don't do this:

'What time is it, my good fellow' asked Bertie.
'5 o'clock. Isn't Paris lovely?'
'Yes. I have a feeling this year will be a good one'
'1992 does seem promising.'

IF you do it once, fine. (But it has to fit!) If you resort to that every chapter, good Lord!!!

Techno-thrillers traditionally start each chapter with setting and time (and in Zulu, at that!).

Click to expand...

DennisB · Feb 3, 2010

Lady Ice wrote: Please, please don't do this:

'What time is it, my good fellow' asked Bertie.
'5 o'clock. Isn't Paris lovely?'
'Yes. I have a feeling this year will be a good one'
'1992 does seem promising.'

IF you do it once, fine. (But it has to fit!) If you resort to that every chapter, good Lord!!!

Techno-thrillers traditionally start each chapter with setting and time (and in Zulu, at that!).

Setting the time and location in scenes and chapters

kal-el

FOTSGreg

Today is your last day.

EclipsesMuse

Questing

Collectonian

Inclined to eclectic eccentricity

kal-el

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller

kal-el

Krintar

megan_d

Falling in the milk

willietheshakes

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

Stunted

Ich heiße Superphantastisch!

RJK

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

job

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Lady Ice

Makes useful distinctions

kal-el

Albannach

AW Addict

kal-el

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

kal-el

DennisB

DennisB

DennisB