Pretty Evil

My dear, let me steal... er, borrow your soul for just a moment.

I'm currently reading an epic fantasy where the evil character gets away with all sorts of stuff b/c she's beautiful. Everyone knows she's manipulative and still she moves the plot forward her way.

I find it absurd, unrealistic, and with disgustingly shallow characters who don't have an ounce of brains in their little heads. I assume, in this instance, that the author had to force the plot somehow and couldn't think of anything better (different characters have the same illogical response to other characters who are driving the plot).

Otoh, I'm still reading b/c this book does have some good points...

I am trying to determine exactly where you were going with this. And I might be completely off target. Are you implying that Kinya is very attractive, and therefore the evil she does is excused? Or are you saying that she is so gray and blends in so well that she can do evil, secure in her anonymity?

I am more of the opinion that the inner soul can be read on the faces of the players. Classically beautiful women that leave one cold usually have a character defect that is eventually borne out. Handsome men with dreamy, yet hard eyes, are tyrants in some form or other.

But, that's just my opinion.

I'll forgive anything so long as they're interesting.

Fenika said:

I'm currently reading an epic fantasy where the evil character gets away with all sorts of stuff b/c she's beautiful. Everyone knows she's manipulative and still she moves the plot forward her way.

I find it absurd, unrealistic, and with disgustingly shallow characters who don't have an ounce of brains in their little heads. I assume, in this instance, that the author had to force the plot somehow and couldn't think of anything better (different characters have the same illogical response to other characters who are driving the plot).

Otoh, I'm still reading b/c this book does have some good points...

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Agreed. Obviously this is a fantasy thread, but how often does this actually happen in real life? It's just not realistic. Beautiful people who get away with bad stuff have other things going for them: they're a powerful, persuasive speaker, they have connections, etc. I just don't feel its realistic for someone to get away with evil just because they're beautiful. Maybe with petty things in high school, but in a high fantasy world? Nope, not buying it. They need more going for them, something to connect them to the reader. Otherwise, it's just a trope that's been played out too many times that readers can't relate to. And that just doesn't fly.

Your MC would not be able to convince me with a smile and a pretty face. I've seen that trick too many times looking after children. She would be able to convince other people - I've watched the same children trick other adults by putting on the pretty angel face.

For realism in the story, you need to show that. Some will not let the MC get away with it. Some will be suspicious, but will give the benefit of the doubt. Some will fall for it. You can't have everyone react the same way, or it won't feel realistic.

Society as a whole is an endless series of repeated prisoners dilemma games. And most people are discriminating participants, as that is the most evolutionary stable strategy. In other words: people learn from their mistakes in trusting other people. So, a character getting away with evil because of a pretty face can be quite believable, if most people only fall for it once, and some people don't fall for it at all. It's still a pretty viable tactic, since there's usually more than enough people around to exploit once each this way. Just like in real life many (probably most) psychopaths aren't serial killers, but actually quite successful people, since especially our modern society rewards psycho-pathological behaviour. In a small community, it can probably only be pulled off once, since everyone talks to everyone, and is thus warned.
A glaring example where this was done badly is the movie Dark Knight. Although the Joker is not exactly pretty, but the general principle applies: He makes his entrance when he kills all his accomplices in a Bank heist. And continues sacrificing (or outright killing) accomplices throughout the rest of the movie. And yet people seemed to be lining up to work for him. Really grating imo. I just can't muster up the suspension of disbelief to accept a crazed mass murderer as the head of some kind of large and effective organisation. Similarly, a character getting away with evil because of a pretty face, all the time, would be pretty annoying.

As long as you can justify whatever her 'grey' actions are- that they don't just seem thrown onto the page because you want your character to be more interesting, it should work.

Replace "beauty" with "charisma" and you've got a working hypothesis.

All the pretty popular people I've envied in my adolescence - did they get away with things? Sure. Occasionally. Were they particularly kind and virtuos? Not necessarily. Were they nothing but pretty? Surely not.

For an ugly duckling (eg. me) it's always tempting to chalk it all up to beauty and ignore all those various other social skills and talents that go into inviting people to project their fantasies on to you. But it's an art in its own right and physical advantages alone will only get you so far.

This one girl for instance - when she gave you her attention, she could make you feel like the center of the world (ultimately she was more into attention-demanding than into attention-giving, but you wouldn't find out right away). Or that boy - he always had that air of mystery (something that takes quite a bit of cultivation), you could spend hours trying to imagine the depths of his soul (experience suggests that those mysterious brooding types rarely hold up to scrutiny - closer aquaintance usually reveals mind-boggling banality).

Beauty certainly bestows certain privileges. Yet it takes some skill to exploit them.

It's always more "Schein als Sein" - make-believe instead of reality - but one should not underestimate the amount of art and effort that goes into make-believe. As the creator of the character, you'll be the one who has to invest it.



Another thing to consider: these charms, even if they are not merely physical, wear off rather quickly. If you don't realize it in time you'll fall on your nose and I've had the pleasure to witness that a couple of times. So if you don't want your morally ambigious pretty face to fall on her pretty nose pretty soon, better make her smart.

It kinda sounds like Kinya has more going for her than just a pretty face. If she's running a business and doing a good job at it over a long period of time, she also has brains, wits, and charisma. Particularly if she's smart enough to realize the advantage of using the bombings to her own ends. So it sounds like she understands she's pretty/beautiful and uses like another tool in her arsenal. Make sure you play up her wits and brains as well as her beauty if you're going to use it (basically make her a well-rounded character) and you should be fine.

Also, figure out what her motivations and goals are. She may not be the MC of your story but that doesn't mean you should ignore what she wants from her life and why she does what she does. Don't make her do things simply because it serves the plot.

BlackMagic528 said:

So, in terms of fiction writing - and I suppose it's inevitable that this will bleed into a little RL discussion; hopefully not much, though - how gray, or even outright evil, do you think a character can get away with being simply because she's attractive? Do you think readers will be as forgiving as those in the work (remember that they can't really see her, necessarily)? Or, do you think readers will be even less forgiving of that character? How do you feel about characters that more readily brush off the misdeeds of an attractive character?

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My first question is: How do I know she's attractive? Because I'm told she is or because of how the other characters treat her? And if other characters react to her because she's attractive, do their reactions make their forgiveness of her believeable within the scope of the story?

Characters are the reader's only vehicle into the story. Readers will have some of their own viewpoints, but most will go with the suspension of disbelief to buy whatever the characters say is so.

Write it well and the reader will generally buy it because they want the story you're telling.

It's both that simple and challenging.

Good luck!

There's an expression: "Cursed with Beauty" ... by which is meant, the physically beautiful are cursed (rather than blessed) ... because no one in their lives ever challenges them to develop some inner character?

It's like being the king's kid: you can never trust anyone to tell you the hard or ugly truth (by which inner character is challenged and grows) because they fear you or slavishly dote upon you.

Therefore (by this paradigm) the "beautiful" are denied the deeper values of life. Given that, they merely reflect the shallowness, fear, or craven pleasure-seeking that surrounds them.

That doesn't mean life is all sweetness and happiness around them; to be "too" beautiful is to be victim to others' predatory behaviour too. Perhaps that demands that terrible defenses must be set up to protect the Beautiful from the ugliness of those who prey upon beauty: in that way, a distrust of other people breeds a predatory defensive mechanism in the beautiful ... the psychological defensive shield becomes an offensive manipulative weapon.

Dogs. It always comes back to dogs upon the perimeters, this time of human spirits.

Every beautiful person should be forced to care for helpless dogs, who don't give a squat for human beauty. It would save them from the human wolves around them who are drawn to their beauty ... and save them by teaching them of love, drust, and compassion that has no regard for external human beauty.

small axe said:

There's an expression: "Cursed with Beauty" ... by which is meant, the physically beautiful are cursed (rather than blessed) ... because no one in their lives ever challenges them to develop some inner character?

It's like being the king's kid: you can never trust anyone to tell you the hard or ugly truth (by which inner character is challenged and grows) because they fear you or slavishly dote upon you.

Therefore (by this paradigm) the "beautiful" are denied the deeper values of life. Given that, they merely reflect the shallowness, fear, or craven pleasure-seeking that surrounds them.

That doesn't mean life is all sweetness and happiness around them; to be "too" beautiful is to be victim to others' predatory behaviour too. Perhaps that demands that terrible defenses must be set up to protect the Beautiful from the ugliness of those who prey upon beauty: in that way, a distrust of other people breeds a predatory defensive mechanism in the beautiful ... the psychological defensive shield becomes an offensive manipulative weapon.

Dogs. It always comes back to dogs upon the perimeters, this time of human spirits.

Every beautiful person should be forced to care for helpless dogs, who don't give a squat for human beauty. It would save them from the human wolves around them who are drawn to their beauty ... and save them by teaching them of love, drust, and compassion that has no regard for external human beauty.

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Because all beautiful people with turn out badly otherwise.

and save them by teaching them of love, drust, and compassion that has no regard for external human beauty.

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'drust' = trust

Because all beautiful people with turn out badly otherwise.

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Well ... it's just one paradigm. But I didn't mean that otherwise the Beautiful will turn out to be (morally) BAD, so much as otherwise their Beauty may turn out badly FOR them.

But perhaps Beauty can scar as deeply as non-Beauty.

That poses the question though: what is Beauty? Is it how others see/treat you ... or how you see/treat others?

Two words: Halo Effect.

It's the bias that good-looking people tend to be judged as all around better than your average looker. Of course, if you're good-looking and know it, you can use this bias to your advantage.

So it may not be that people let the evil sexy girl/guy get away with doing something bad, they're just startled that they were wrong about them (and maybe even in denial). What's one of the favorite lines defense attorneys like to use? Look at that face! Does that look like the face of a killer to you?!

Is the character meant to be sympathetic or not?

For an evil character -- by which I mean, greedy, ruthless, violent, sadistic, cruel, arrogant, unprincipled, or in some other way inclined to hurt other people without a pang of conscience -- to be sympathetic, he or she must have redeeming features. Those don't have to be enough to redeem them, really, but they have to be enough to present the reader with a feeling that "I'd like to know this person" even if it has to share space with "When I meet him/her, damn it, I'm going armed." Physical attractiveness helps, but isn't enough by itself. A truly gorgeous, but otherwise abominable, character will not be appealing; the beauty will disgust.

For a character who isn't meant to be sympathetic, less is required; the character needs to be interesting and not one-dimensional, but nobody needs to like him/her.

BM, it sounds from what you've said that your character is not only beautiful but also morally ambivalent, or "gray" as you put it, yet I would suggest that isn't a good word, because it implies washed out and boring. Your character isn't gray, she's alternately black-hearted as the sooty depths of Hell and luminous as a pearly halo, with different sides of her character. If that is done well, it can be a REALLY interesting character. But a lot of what makes her interesting isn't her physical beauty, in my opinion.

You know, there's a reason the most poisonous plants are beautiful. Same thing for carnivores--look at the colors of a sea anemone sometime. Their colors lure in the unwitting prey and then--pop! Shrimp buffet!

Here's the way I see it: Evil needs to be packaged just like any other product. While it's tempting to make something evil also ugly, to me it's not as effective. Superficial creatures that we are, we are likely to be more suspicious of the revoltingly horrid looking character and less apt to follow him/her trustingly. A beautiful villian--or even a 'gray' or (going back to D&D) chaotic neutral/evil character--is going to get that first chance to sink his/her fangs into the intended prey as a free pass. Allure can mask all sorts of dastardly intentions. But that's not just physical beauty. What's essential to make it work has little to do with beauty and everything to do with charisma. Hitler, for example, wasn't exactly an Aryan sex god. But what he was was an extremely charismatic individual, both on a one to one level and in the grand theater of the Nazi rallies. His allure not only led many in Germany to accept his platforms of hatred, but actually to espouse them and in the process engendered an extreme personal loyalty to Hitler as their leader. All that allure was backed up with imagery--the Aryan imagery so familiar to us, the allusions to Wagner and his German mythology and folklore -- all this was built up around Hitler and the Nazi party to make it nearly irresistible to a country devastated by the first World War and the post-surrender conditions set upon them. So if you (a) set the story situation up to establish an easy happy hunting ground for your character; (b) give that morally gray or evil character enough personal allure (both physical and charismatic) to make the situation credible; and (c) have that character create a situation around him/her that makes what he/she's offering really tempting to the average Joe character, then yes--it can be very effective character development.

Do you think a character can get away with being simply because she's attractive?

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No. There's more to everyone. Even pretty people.

As for the readers, I think it has to do with your character. If he genuinely feels sorry for her, he'll have a reason other than she's a hot piece of ass. If he has a good reason, your reader will.

How do you feel about characters that more readily brush off the misdeeds of an attractive character?

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The only way I'd be okay to read about a cliche like this is if you made it some what comical. Have another character making fun of the MC. And trust me, that's the only way.

Just out of curiosity, is your avatar, that you say isn't you, supposed to be Kinya? If so, OMG she is HOT!!

Dangerous, given your description. I avoid women like that.