SF Reading Protocols

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
Just read this article over at Tor.com: http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=58637#

Brings up some interesting points. If you have a look at the "technobabble" thread, you'll see the difference in protocols between space opera/soft sf and hard sf at work. Well, you might. I'm not sure how much I buy this idea of "reading protocols".
 

MattW

Company Man
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
6,326
Reaction score
856
Does this thread call for a protocol droid?
 

MattW

Company Man
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
6,326
Reaction score
856
These weren't the droids we were looking for.


But I read the article on protocols...it doesn't quite explain the well versed genre reader who still bounces off the occasional genre novels. My own examples being Jo Walton (who wrote that article) and the ever popular China Mievillle. Do I not have the mind set or skills to absorb their writing while I can delve into many others? Maybe I'm deluding myself and can only really read epic fantasy.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
These weren't the droids we were looking for.


But I read the article on protocols...it doesn't quite explain the well versed genre reader who still bounces off the occasional genre novels. My own examples being Jo Walton (who wrote that article) and the ever popular China Mievillle. Do I not have the mind set or skills to absorb their writing while I can delve into many others? Maybe I'm deluding myself and can only really read epic fantasy.


Never read Walton, but I'm a fool for Mieville. He's probably a little old for me, though. ;)

I don't buy the "toolkit" metaphor. I agree with several of the commenters proposing it's a frame of reference. It depends on the expectations you bring to the book.
 

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
11,525
Reaction score
1,988
Age
43
Location
Dallas
Website
seanpatrickmiller.com
Mieville's PDS doesn't require special skills to appreciate. It's plain boring.

Well, let me take that back. The skill I'd need is the ability to sit down and read a boring novel.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
Mieville's PDS doesn't require special skills to appreciate. It's plain boring.

Well, let me take that back. The skill I'd need is the ability to sit down and read a boring novel.


It's not boring at all. Though I'm not going to argue something so stupid as that you haven't got the skills to appreciate it. it's just not your thing. I'm afraid that this post's argument falls short in the particulars, like all arguments do.
 

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
9,090
Reaction score
2,165
Location
Lost Angeles
I don't know if I agree with this. I mean, I was reading kids SF novels at age six, and adult ones at age 9--I didn't know a damn thing about science or people or the world or anything, but I still understood the books and I couldn't get enough of them. When and how would I have acquired this hypothetical toolkit?

Some non-SF-readers are going to have a reaction, possibly based in literary prejudice, possibly based in confusion, when they read about tachyon drives and ansibles and wormholes and other such unobtaniums. And they won't want to read on.

There are plenty of other reasons to be turned off of a given spec fic novel or subgenre. Some people get put off of UF, not wanting to read about another Buffy clone. Some people love UF because so many of the characters are buffy clones. Some people can't bear another epic novel series about a mixed team of heroes having D&Desque adventures. Some people can't get enough of epic serieses about D&Desque adventures. That's more likes and dislikes than a toolkit issue.
 

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
11,525
Reaction score
1,988
Age
43
Location
Dallas
Website
seanpatrickmiller.com
Some non-SF-readers are going to have a reaction, possibly based in literary prejudice, possibly based in confusion, when they read about tachyon drives and ansibles and wormholes and other such unobtaniums. And they won't want to read on.
I submit that the bolded reasons are not the only justifications for disliking the italicized technologies. According to our current understanding of physics, FTL is impossible. Perhaps these non-spec fic readers aren't prejudiced or confused. Instead, they might not care to read about impossibilities because they don't believe the message in such a story could be applicable to the real world. This is not so much a prejudice as it is, on the surface, a perfectly logical argument: a story that could never come true under any real world conditions is worthless.

Of course, I don't agree with it at all.
 
Last edited:

WildScribe

Slave to the Wordcount
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
6,189
Reaction score
729
Location
Purgatory
Am I the only one who sees this article as a long You Just Don't Get Us Or Our Treehouse?

Nope, that's what I read.

His "toolkit" seems to be the suspension of disbelief, not something you really have to build up over years of reading SF.
 

Deleted member 42

I don't completely agree with Walton's interpretation either--in part because it's the nature of genre fiction to have a set of characteristics--but to be fair, she is writing to an audience who already have a shared set of values.

There's some criticism and critical theory and analysis behind what she's saying that she's taken as a given, and perhaps shouldn't.

A great deal of this stuff comes, as she says, from the work of Samuel "Chip" Delany. Delany is both a much published SF and fantasy writer and a fairly major critical theory junkie expert. So there's that stuff lurking behind the much reduced presentation in Walton's blog post--and Jo Walton is no slouch.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
Am I the only one who sees this article as a long You Just Don't Get Us Or Our Treehouse?


I think her point is that after awhile, you've got set patterns and it's hard to change. Notice she applies the point to all readers, not just litficcers reading spec fic, but specficcers reading lit fic. What she sees you as building up is not suspension of disbelief, but a familiarity with certain conventions in fiction. Just like a Chinese speaker and I grow up with different conventions of language. Or maybe I should say a speaker of Black English and I, since the short distance between the two, and the confusion that results from it, are similar in scope.

That said, I think the "toolkit" analogy is poorly considered.
 

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
2,962
Reaction score
629
Location
Bay Area, CA
Website
www.geardrops.net
I understand that in any genre, romance, litfic, sff, academia, whathaveyou, there are certain assumptions/expectations the writer will have of their audience and that the audience will have of the writer. The metaphors in St Augustine's Confessions will have less impact for those not familiar with Christian imagery (and even for those who do, still less impact than for those who have strong emotional connection with it). Star Trek matters less if you don't care about travelling to the farthest reaches of space.

It just feels to me like Walton is painting a version of specfic that makes it as "challenging to reach for the outsider" as litfic is, bound by its own paradigm and demanding a similar level of genre awareness.

But I'm also not sure who she's trying to convince of what. That specfic is just as worthy of analysis as litfic? That the folks who mock specfic, or call it boring or dumb, are merely approaching the text from the wrong paradigm?

I also wasn't a fan of what I felt to be a somewhat... patronizing? ... tone. (Not sure if that's the word I want. It's a bit strong. But there it is.)

This tachyon drive guy, who has stuck in my mind for years and years, got hung up on that detail because he didn’t know how to take in what was and what wasn’t important. How do I know it wasn’t important? The way it was signalled in the story.

When I was published she worked her way through The King’s Peace, and eventually managed to see past the metaphorical. “It’s just like Greek myths or the bible!” she said brightly. That was all the context she had. I fell over laughing, but this really was her first step to acquiring the reading habits we take for granted.

I dunno. Perhaps I'm alone here. Like I said on my twitter, I like books that drill a hole in your brain and fill it with a searing insight into humanity. I also like lasers that go pew pew pew. The tension between these two is, IMHO, obnoxious and unnecessary.

(forgive odd sentences or spelling errors. Typing one-handed sucks.)

ETA responding to Liosse de Velishaf:

I wonder how much of it, though, is merely attributable to personal taste? Maybe someone didn't like THE FOREVER WAR b/c they don't care for stories about space travel, or wars. Just like how I don't care about one old dude in a boat with a big fish on the horizon. I still love Sartre and Camus, so clearly I "get" existential writing on some level...
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
I understand that in any genre, romance, litfic, sff, academia, whathaveyou, there are certain assumptions/expectations the writer will have of their audience and that the audience will have of the writer. The metaphors in St Augustine's Confessions will have less impact for those not familiar with Christian imagery (and even for those who do, still less impact than for those who have strong emotional connection with it). Star Trek matters less if you don't care about travelling to the farthest reaches of space.

It just feels to me like Walton is painting a version of specfic that makes it as "challenging to reach for the outsider" as litfic is, bound by its own paradigm and demanding a similar level of genre awareness.

But I'm also not sure who she's trying to convince of what. That specfic is just as worthy of analysis as litfic? That the folks who mock specfic, or call it boring or dumb, are merely approaching the text from the wrong paradigm?

I also wasn't a fan of what I felt to be a somewhat... patronizing? ... tone. (Not sure if that's the word I want. It's a bit strong. But there it is.)





I dunno. Perhaps I'm alone here. Like I said on my twitter, I like books that drill a hole in your brain and fill it with a searing insight into humanity. I also like lasers that go pew pew pew. The tension between these two is, IMHO, obnoxious and unnecessary.

(forgive odd sentences or spelling errors. Typing one-handed sucks.)

ETA responding to Liosse de Velishaf:

I wonder how much of it, though, is merely attributable to personal taste? Maybe someone didn't like THE FOREVER WAR b/c they don't care for stories about space travel, or wars. Just like how I don't care about one old dude in a boat with a big fish on the horizon. I still love Sartre and Camus, so clearly I "get" existential writing on some level...


You make a good point. I was looking more at it as they had not made the effort to engage in the material though. For instance, I despise Catcher in the Rye, but I know that that's more a matter of taste in protagonists than any lack of skill on the part of the late Mr. Salinger. But I see a lot of people on both sides of "literary vs. genre" divide who don't really give their opponents a chance, because they see one thing they are unfamiliar with and quit. That's not to say I'm speaking of the majority, it 'sjust something I have occasionally observed.
 

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
2,962
Reaction score
629
Location
Bay Area, CA
Website
www.geardrops.net
You make a good point. I was looking more at it as they had not made the effort to engage in the material though. For instance, I despise Catcher in the Rye, but I know that that's more a matter of taste in protagonists than any lack of skill on the part of the late Mr. Salinger. But I see a lot of people on both sides of "literary vs. genre" divide who don't really give their opponents a chance, because they see one thing they are unfamiliar with and quit. That's not to say I'm speaking of the majority, it 'sjust something I have occasionally observed.

I FULLY agree that there are critics of specfic who won't engage the material in the slightest (I'd go so far as to say there are MANY critics like this). Litsnobs who frown on anything they don't consider part of their genre, openly deriding it and those who appreciate it, and mock the people who attempt to read their genre and put it down because they didn't like it ("Obviously they don't understand...").

Thing is, I feel like Walton's doing the same thing. But it's worse, because she's doing this to people who gave an effort.

One of my [seemingly many] problems with Walton's post is that she derides people who made earnest attempts to engage the text and did not appreciate it -- or if they did appreciate it, they didn't appreciate it "correctly."

No one can say "tachyon guy" didn't engage the text. He became so intellectually invested in FTL travel and the mechanics therein that he couldn't work past it. This isn't entirely unlike the physicist who can't read those stories because s/he knows it not to work, the computer scientist who can't deal with how computers are represented in modern media. This isn't a guy I'd lump with those who failed to miss the cues. This is a guy I'd wave over and direct to some HARD sf books.

Or what about her aunt, who likened fantasy to mythology? How does this inspire laughter? Mythology and fantasy aren't exactly apples and oranges. I can talk about a super-powerful old man in a white robe wearing a long beard, and depending on your lens you could call him God or Gandalf or a stack of other names. Say what you will, but this woman read the book and engaged it enough to parallel it to that which she was highly familiar. But, of course, she didn't "get it" did she? And so, Walton laughs.

Just the whole thing really puts me off.

PS -- Totally agree with you about CATCHER IN THE RYE. I thought Holden was a whiny twat who needed a good smack in the mouth with my open palm :)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
I FULLY agree that there are critics of specfic who won't engage the material in the slightest (I'd go so far as to say there are MANY critics like this). Litsnobs who frown on anything they don't consider part of their genre, openly deriding it and those who appreciate it, and mock the people who attempt to read their genre and put it down because they didn't like it ("Obviously they don't understand...").

Thing is, I feel like Walton's doing the same thing. But it's worse, because she's doing this to people who gave an effort.

One of my [seemingly many] problems with Walton's post is that she derides people who made earnest attempts to engage the text and did not appreciate it -- or if they did appreciate it, they didn't appreciate it "correctly."

No one can say "tachyon guy" didn't engage the text. He became so intellectually invested in FTL travel and the mechanics therein that he couldn't work past it. This isn't entirely unlike the physicist who can't read those stories because s/he knows it not to work, the computer scientist who can't deal with how computers are represented in modern media. This isn't a guy I'd lump with those who failed to miss the cues. This is a guy I'd wave over and direct to some HARD sf books.

Or what about her aunt, who likened fantasy to mythology? How does this inspire laughter? Mythology and fantasy aren't exactly apples and oranges. I can talk about a super-powerful old man in a white robe wearing a long beard, and depending on your lens you could call him God or Gandalf or a stack of other names. Say what you will, but this woman read the book and engaged it enough to parallel it to that which she was highly familiar. But, of course, she didn't "get it" did she? And so, Walton laughs.

Just the whole thing really puts me off.

PS -- Totally agree with you about CATCHER IN THE RYE. I thought Holden was a whiny twat who needed a good smack in the mouth with my open palm :)


Well, when you approach a tough subject, there's bound to be fuck-ups. I didn't read her as intentionally derisive, but I do understand how she may have come off as a little snobbish.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.