Literary Fantasy

Status
Not open for further replies.

Elias Graves

Unrealistically Optimistic
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
430
Reaction score
27
Despite the many subgenres of SF/Fantasy, I've always classified them more along the lines of popular and literary.
Titles like LOTR or Inferno strike me as literary styles.
Many others fall into more of a pop or page turner style.

Anybody else see fantasy in this light? Can you name some examples of each and perhaps explain why you think they fit the category.

EG
 

Capital

Doomthayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
240
Reaction score
21
Location
Snow. Bears. Every other day I see another human.
From wiki:
Literary fiction is a term that has come into common usage since around 1960, principally to distinguish serious fiction (that is, work with claims to literary merit) from the many types of genre fiction and popular fiction (i.e., paraliterature). In broad terms, literary fiction focuses more on style, psychological depth, and character, whereas mainstream commercial fiction (the page-turner) focuses more on narrative and plot.[citation needed]

What distinguishes literary fiction from other genres is somewhat subjective, and as in other artistic media, genres may overlap. Even so, literary fiction is generally characterized as distinctive based on its content and style ("literariness", the concern to be "writerly"). The term literary fiction is considered hard to define very precisely[1] but is commonly associated with the criteria used in literary awards and marketing of certain kinds of novels, since literary prizes usually concern themselves with literary fiction, and their shortlists can give a working definition.

So there you go: many see entire media in this light, it's subjective, and mostly used to distinguish Twilight from some boring award winning doorstopper where characters have no names and get called "He" or "The Man".

This may be unrelated, but what fascinates me about people in general is their ability to choose a niche, become a specialist in it and then argue specifics to no end, as if it actually matters to anyone but the others in the same niche. And this applies to everything: writing, cars, soccer, curling, catbreeding, making sculptures out of excrement. I do it too for the few niches I'm involved in.

As for writing, I care only that the story is worth reading. I don't care if it's classified as literary, urban, or literary urban punk.
 

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 26, 2005
Messages
23,708
Reaction score
10,661
Location
In a world of my own making
Website
shadowferret.wordpress.com
Despite the many subgenres of SF/Fantasy, I've always classified them more along the lines of popular and literary.
Titles like LOTR or Inferno strike me as literary styles.
Many others fall into more of a pop or page turner style.

Hmm. Is that why I didn't read LoTR? Because I couldn't turn the pages?
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,030
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
Oh there's definitely a difference between more literary ( character driven) and more commercial ( plot driven) SFF

However the line is somewhat subjective. It's not a straight divide, more a sliding scale ( for preference both character and plot should be prominent IMO) Maybe the Dresden files, or Diana Wynne Jones or Dan Abnett would be commercial / plot driven and say some of Cherryh's stuff, or Hobb, Le Guin etc would be more literary. I tend to go more for the character driven stuff myself, though I do love a good page turner too :D
 

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
11,525
Reaction score
1,988
Age
43
Location
Dallas
Website
seanpatrickmiller.com
What does character-driven mean? I've never seen a good definition that adequately distinguishes it from plot-driven, whatever that means. Every story I've read has had both characters and plot--and yeah, before you ask, that does include "There Will Come Soft Rains". Almost all published writers make a conscious effort to entertain their respective audiences. Those who don't, don't get read.

JD Macdonald may have it mostly right when he says you can determine whether a work is literary by looking at the publisher's logo on the spine. I, however, would include other marketing copy. This means a work is literary when its publisher says it is.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
What does character-driven mean? I've never seen a good definition that adequately distinguishes it from plot-driven, whatever that means. Every story I've read has had both characters and plot--and yeah, before you ask, that does include "There Will Come Soft Rains". Almost all published writers make a conscious effort to entertain their respective audiences. Those who don't, don't get read.

JD Macdonald may have it mostly right when he says you can determine whether a work is literary by looking at the publisher's logo on the spine. I, however, would include other marketing copy. This means a work is literary when its publisher says it is.


Well, when you focus more on external conflict, you have plot driven, and more internal conflict is character driven.



Amyway, what's the def for "literary" as opposed to "pop"? And why the use of such a derogatory term?

LOTR is High Fantasy, and so is Shannara. I don't see any significant differences between them though one is crap and popular and the other is better and popular. I suppose you could divide along lines of quality, but we'd have to redefine the entire concept of literary vs. "genre" for that to work.
 

Etola

Still looking for stars...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 10, 2006
Messages
2,867
Reaction score
429
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Well, when you focus more on external conflict, you have plot driven, and more internal conflict is character driven.

I was under the impression that character-driven meant that the characters caused the plot through their own choices/actions, whereas plot-driven is when a plot which exists outside the character, grabs said character and drags them along, with or without their consent.

By your definition, I'm not sure where to place, for example, a story where the main plot is external but the focus is on the characters and their development.

I'm beginning to suspect that the definitions of "character-driven" and "plot-driven" are as flexible as the definition of literary fiction ;)
 

Sevvy

Spec Fic Writer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
595
Reaction score
36
Location
New York State
What does character-driven mean? I've never seen a good definition that adequately distinguishes it from plot-driven, whatever that means.

Character driven is when the story moves forward because of decisions the character makes, and their personal conflicts in the story. It's usually a change in the character that drives the character driven narrative. Plot driven is when what happens is more important in the story than who it happens to.

Character driven: the story is about someone
Plot driven: the story is about something (happening)

Or at least that's how I think of it.

To answer the OP now, I liked the idea someone proposed of books being on a gradient between literary and genre; it's very true. Off the top of my head, some literary SFF would be The Handmaid's Tale Margaret Atwood, The Island of Dr. Moreau H.G. Wells, almost anything by Ray Bradbury. The popular writers would be people like R.A. Salvatore, Stephanie Meyer, J.K. Rowling.

I think the best SFF comes from a melding of the best from literary and the best from popular styles.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
I was under the impression that character-driven meant that the characters caused the plot through their own choices/actions, whereas plot-driven is when a plot which exists outside the character, grabs said character and drags them along, with or without their consent.

By your definition, I'm not sure where to place, for example, a story where the main plot is external but the focus is on the characters and their development.

I'm beginning to suspect that the definitions of "character-driven" and "plot-driven" are as flexible as the definition of literary fiction ;)

Well, it depends on the plot. Character-driven stories can have external plots. But if finding the McGuffin of Mainsmark is more important than whether F'r'tov'a betrayed John for Selagorianapolisa's hand in marriage, I imagine you've got yourself a plot-driven story.


ETA: But the whole character-driven vs. plot-driven dichotomy is bullshit anyway. ;)
 

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
11,525
Reaction score
1,988
Age
43
Location
Dallas
Website
seanpatrickmiller.com
ETA: But the whole character-driven vs. plot-driven dichotomy is bullshit anyway. ;)
Yes.

In your given example, the story isn't about finding the MacGuffin of Mainsmark; it's about (protagonist name here)'s struggles to find the MacGuffin of Mainsmark. That's such a terrible plot that the protagonist had better be a damn interesting character, and thus we have character-driven fiction, amirite? ;)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
Yes.

In your given example, the story isn't about finding the MacGuffin of Mainsmark; it's about (protagonist name here)'s struggles to find the MacGuffin of Mainsmark. That's such a terrible plot that the protagonist had better be a damn interesting character, and thus we have character-driven fiction, amirite? ;)


Haha. :D

Of course, "find the McGuffin of Mainsmark" isn't a plot at all. It's a premise or a goal.

The trick here is that a story with characters but no plot is boring--because even watching, say, Osama bin Laden, or Marylin Monroe sit around in a chair all day is boring--but so is having Plot Robot C7UO run all over Fantasmadania hunting for the sword that will cut down the Evil Tree Overlord turning everyone in Treedoria into crocuses.

Until, you find out that he's a marrying the Tree Overlord's daughter and becoming King of Treedoria against the wishes of all the citizens--but that he is also fatally allergic to crocuses.
 
Last edited:

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,030
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
Every story I've read has had both characters and plot
That's why it's a sliding scale;) But it's not that it has them, it's their importance.

Any given work will lean more towards one than the other, and the importance is somewhat subjective. But say LOTR, the inner journey of the hobbits is ( imo) more important than the external plot ( the ring). How the external plot affects Frodo and Sam is what the story is about - the plot is only how that inner change is realised.

Whereas say the Dresden Files. In each book Harry's character remains essentially unchanged, the 'what happens' is more important than character change or how he feels about the plot. Except that it generally hurts :D
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
That's why it's a sliding scale;)

Any given work will lean more towards one than the other though, and the importance is somewhat subjective. Bay say LOTR, the inner journey of the hobbits is ( imo) more important than the external plot ( the ring). How the external plot affects Frodo and Sam is what the story is about - the plot is only how that inner change is realised.

Whereas say the Dresden Files. In each book Harry's character remains essentially unchanged, the 'what happens' is more important than character change or how he feels about the plot. Except that it generally hurts :D


True enough, but what about people who say they read the book for the characters (that never change) instead of for the plot?

My point being, maybe people are confused by the different senses of the "character".
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,030
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
I read for character. I read more literary if I want them to change / them to be the important part, or commercial if I don't care

Whichever the book is, your character still needs to be vivid and well-developed to appeal. That doesn't change on genre, and not on the degree of literariness either.
 

brokenfingers

Walkin' That Road
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
6,072
Reaction score
4,324
I've heard authors like Gene Wolfe, Jack Vance and M. John Harrison touted as literary fantasy authors. Their books aren't so much plot-driven as they are explorations of character and story in lyrical (or dense) prose.
 

Me&BacchusGoIntoABar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
383
Reaction score
21
It seems to me that the common plot-driven vs character-driven question is simply the wrong question to ask, and a misleading one. It sets up an expectation that it ought to be one or the other, and that the two are mutually exclusive.

It should be more about being plot-driven and being character-driven, at least for SFF and most genre writing. Not plot-driven enough? Bad. Not character-driven enough? Bad. It's best to be both, and to do both very well.
 

knight_tour

Fantasy Tourist
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
957
Reaction score
62
Location
Rome, Italy
Website
tedacross.blogspot.com
I don't classify any of them as literary unless an author takes what could be a nice, straightforward story, and muddles it with over-the-top prose that makes me want to throw the book into a fireplace. I guess I could see LOTR as literary, except that it flows so nicely without being pretentious.
 
Last edited:

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
I think literary fiction can mean either of two things:
  1. Fiction that's thoughtful, deep, well-constructed and lasts; or
  2. Fiction that's experimental, self-indulgent and hard to enjoy.
Fantasy has a bit of both, but I think it's more productive to ignore 2) and just talk about 1).

There's nothing stopping fantasy or any other genre from being literary, and there's nothing stopping a story of literary construction from being popular among fans, so saying 'literary' vs 'popular' or 'literary' vs 'page turner' creates a false dichotomy. Editors like Sol Stein will often compare 'literary' to 'transient' fiction... the difference being that literary stuff is likely to still be read in thirty or sixty years time while transient stuff is likely to be forgotten. I like that comparison.

So, what's the difference?

In my opinion, literary stories will do more than just cash in on a faddish subject. They'll have well-constructed story that will speak across multiple generations. They'll have something thoughtful to say that other fiction isn't saying, and they'll say it entertainingly, evocatively and interestingly.

So, how does one do that in a genre like fantasy?

A common piece of advice is to make the story 'character-driven' rather than 'plot-driven', but I think that this is another false dichotomy and it's misleading to boot. Nearly all the romance genre is full of 'character-driven' drama (i.e. drama that features characters making choices and reacting to their inner needs), and most romance genre is transient fiction. Fantasy too has some quite forgettable 'character-driven' drama -- it generally comes in mauve covers with titles in curly metallic lettering and features young girls with cloaks on the front.

What I think makes a story 'literary' is actually balance and connectivity between character-development and plot. Literary stories have a rich palette of characters; the characters have depth and complexity; they contrast in interesting ways, and the plot emerges from who they are, rather than simply what they must do. Also they have strong themes and clearly focused concerns.

If you're looking for literary fantasy look for: stories with characters that break the mold for their roles; characters with credible and surprising internal contradictions; contradictions that emerge over time in response to circumstance; conflicts that are layered rather than simple; a character's masks of delusion and deceit stripped away over time; plot that never shoe-horns itself onto the characters, but rather emerges organically from the characters' own nature; and language that captures place and character and events vividly, memorably and concisely. Also look for stories that tackle moral concerns and savage them to death.

As two outstanding examples I'd nominate Ursula K. Le Guin's A Wizard of Earthsea, and Gene Wolfe's Shadow of a Torturer. Brief explanations follow...

In A Wizard of Earthsea (1968), Sparrowhawk is a talented magician who's too proud and ambitious for his own good. Rather than being a Child of Omen who'll Save the World, he screws up big-time and inflicts some Bad upon the world. Thereafter the rest of the book is about him working out how to deal with the Bad. By its own nature, the Bad is able to anticipate everything he does, and is never less powerful than he is so the better and more powerful he gets, the worse the Bad gets, so the battle is far more spiritual than physical. Sparrowhawk himself is a mass of contradictions: he's of humble birth but very proud; compassionate but sometimes ruthless; powerful but helpless against his own nemesis. His friends are well-differentiated, but often unable to help him. He seldom gets Items of Power to assist him in his quest. What he gets along the way instead -- often at high personal cost -- are Insights.

In Shadow of the Torturer (1980), Severian is an orphan who works in the torturer's guild. In a fit of compassion and adolescent love he shows a draconian sort of kindness to one of the guild's 'clients', and is thereby shamed and exiled. The rest of the book consists of Severian wandering the world, plying his trade on behalf of local governments and reflecting on what it means to be a guy who does a job that nobody wants to do, but which must still get done. Like Sparrowhawk, Severian is a mass of contradictions. He's sensitive and compassionate, but has the cruellest job in the world. He's deliberately measured in the cruelty he inflicts on others professionally, but he's sometimes far more cruel in his personal relationships. He has a very high sense of duty and honour, but he's constantly doing things for which he's later ashamed. He's self-sacrificing and has a strong sense of justice, but finds himself travelling with and working with some of the most selfish and unjust people imaginable. As with Le Guin's story, Severian's story is inextricably bound with who he is; if you put a different character in his place, it couldn't have the same experiences.
Contrary to the way it's sometimes touted, literary fiction isn't a litmus test for who's the smarter or deeper reader. Just as with any other fiction, one can enjoy one literary story and not enjoy another, and enjoying literary fantasy doesn't mean that one won't enjoy lighter stuff too.

But both these stories have deep themes, carefully developed, and to my mind all literary fiction does. In A Wizard of Earthsea, a dominant concern is the exploration of where the wisdom of wizards comes from. So we see passages like this:
Ged, listen to me now. Have you never thought how danger must surround power as shadow does light?
From that time forth he believed that the wise man is one who never sets himself apart from other living things, whether they have speech or not, and in later years he strove to learn what can be learned, in silence, from the eyes of animals, the flight of birds, the great slow gestures of trees.

In Shadow of the Torturer, a dominant concern is what duty a man holds to the state, and to his fellows. And we see quotes like this:
That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.

Quotations like this make us stop and think. And getting the reader to believe them means that not everything that happens in a story will be pleasant and enjoyable, which leads me to some final points of difference...

Transient fantasy seeks to entertain us with its whimsy. Literary fantasy does that too, but also uses its whimsy to challenge and provoke us. Transient fantasy often features fear, joy, humour and triumph, but literary fantasy is most often bittersweet; it contains all the emotions of transient fantasy, but often its lingering aftertaste is a wise kind of sadness. As a general rule, fantasy that makes us feel too happy is seldom literary. :)

Hope that helps.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.