Ghostwriter To Use or Not To Use

breathlesssunset · Jan 25, 2010

Hi Everyone,
I just joined this forum after it was recommended to my friend and I.

My friend and I are interested in writing a novel based on a shared experience. Neither one of us is a writer (don't even know where to begin).

My question is should we use a ghostwriter? Do publishers even look at works from new authors whereby a ghostwriter is used? I'm hearing conflicting information.

Also, to approach an agent, do we need the full manuscript or can we submit a proposal that includes 3 chapters.

Forgive my ignorance if this seems very basic. Thanks in advance

lucidzfl · Jan 25, 2010

I can't speak to the ghostwriter comments since

a. I have no idea
b. the idea seems ridiculous.

However, to approach an agent, it is always wise to have a finished, polished manuscript. The reason: What do you do if the agent likes the first three chapters and requests the rest?

Birol · Jan 25, 2010

Ghostwriters are most often used for non-fiction. When they are used for fiction, it is typically for a franchise/brand (VC Andrews) or for a celebrity. If you're truly writing a novel, which by definition is fiction, know that ideas for fiction are a dime a dozen and I doubt your idea is original enough to justify the expense of a ghostwriter -- you would be willing to pay the professional for their services, correct?

If, instead, you're looking at a memoir or other type of non-fiction book, then this is a different discussion.

job · Jan 25, 2010

What Birol said.

If you're writing about what actually happened to you -- abduction by aliens, escaping from white slavery, overcoming drug addiction -- in a realistic way, then it's not a novel. It's non-fiction.

Non-fiction is typically sold on proposal. That is, you approach a publisher who handles this sort of non-fiction with a proposal for the book, saying what kind of book you want to offer, how it would fit in the market, and why you are uniquely qualified to write it.

A professional ghostwriter will know how to write a book proposal. There are lots of ways to handle this, but the ghost will probably charge some money up front, then a standard fee per page.
This here looks like a reasonable summary of the ghostwriting process.

Let me pull out a few lines of the above reference and quote under Fair Use.
"I would say on average you're looking at an investment of somewhere between $10,000 and $30,000."

But I don't, myself, know anything more than what I read on the internet. If this is a non-fiction project, you might ask the mods to move your question to the proper section.

allenparker · Jan 26, 2010

Perhaps this might be more helpful.

If you have a story idea and want to write a novel, learn the craft of writing and write it. Start by reading Uncle Jim's thread on writing novels. Buy a good book on writing.

Make an outline for the story. Write down every detail you know about the characters, plot, and setting.

Find one hour a day to write. Write every day. Place your butt in a chair and write, herein referred to as BIC.

Determine that you will succeed. Find successful writers and pick their brain every time you can.

Remember that one novel a year is a good steady pace. Your first novel may take much longer. Five years is not unusual.

And lastly, have fun.

hope this helps.

James D. Macdonald · Jan 26, 2010

My question is should we use a ghostwriter?

No.

Do publishers even look at works from new authors whereby a ghostwriter is used?

They'd be buying the ghostwriter's book, not yours. Unless you can sell books on your name alone (e.g. Newt Gingrich) this isn't a good plan.

Also, to approach an agent, do we need the full manuscript or can we submit a proposal that includes 3 chapters.

You'd submit whatever the agent says he/she wants in his or her guidelines. But what will you do if the agent wants to see the full? Say, "Wait a year, I'll get back to you"?

My best advice: If you want to write a novel, write your novel.

shaldna · Jan 26, 2010

Okay, this is a difficult question to answer.

Ghost writers are usually used by celebrities and the like who don't have the time/ability to write thier own books.

It's most common in non-fic, in fiction it's pretty rare with the notable exceptions of branded series - nancy drew, virginina andrews etc

I guess it all depends on the actual reasons you want to write the book.

breathlesssunset · Jan 26, 2010

Do Publishers Even..?

Hi Everyone, ) I posted this in another forum but I don't think it was the right place.)

My friend and I are interested in writing a novel based on our experiences (using fictional characters). We have no experience with writing a novel. We have notes for the novel but have no idea on how to go about this. We've been told by a publisher that instead of using a ghostwriter, we can use a writing coach.

We've found someone that said that they're willing to be our writing coach but he'd write all of the chapters for us.

I've heard that using a ghostwriter for novels is the kiss of death (publishers won't even look at your work). Is it the same with using a writing coach? How about a writing coach who writes all of the chapters? Thanks in advance.

lucidzfl · Jan 26, 2010

I'm pretty sure your friend must have posted here as well since this exact question came up.

Why the aversion to simply writing the book yourselves?

I believe someone said in another thread, "to writers, ideas for fiction are a dime a dozen"

There is probably no idea that you have that is unique enough that any publisher will care enough to accept the submission from someone else who wrote the book.

On a side note, how can you trust anyone else to write the fictional characters based on your real friends? YOU'RE the people who know each other...

As far as "no experience writing a novel" goes, NO one who hasn't written a novel has any experience writing a novel. Know how they get that experience?

By writing a novel.

Lyra Jean · Jan 26, 2010

Just start writing. You don't need a ghost writer or a writing coach. By writing and learning from your mistakes is how you learn to write whether it's a novel, an essay, or a poem.

EFCollins · Jan 26, 2010

Write it yourself. You know your experiences. You know the English language. If it sucks the first round, you revise. And revise. And revise. Eventually, it will either not suck, or you will trunk it.

Every writer has a trunk novel. Usually their first three.

Write it yourself.

M.R.J. Le Blanc · Jan 26, 2010

If he's writing it all himself, what is he coaching you guys on? He doesn't sound any different from a ghost writer.

My opinion, if you want to write a novel write it. Just start typing. Even all those novelists had to start somewhere. Writing courses, university degrees, they aren't prerequisites to being a novelist. Just write the story and take it from there, there's a lot of good resources on this site.

suki · Jan 26, 2010

breathlesssunset said:
Hi Everyone, ) I posted this in another forum but I don't think it was the right place.)

My friend and I are interested in writing a novel based on our experiences (using fictional characters). We have no experience with writing a novel. We have notes for the novel but have no idea on how to go about this. We've been told by a publisher that instead of using a ghostwriter, we can use a writing coach.

We've found someone that said that they're willing to be our writing coach but he'd write all of the chapters for us.

I've heard that using a ghostwriter for novels is the kiss of death (publishers won't even look at your work). Is it the same with using a writing coach? How about a writing coach who writes all of the chapters? Thanks in advance.

A writing coach who actually does all the writing sounds like a ghost writer to me, LOL.

I know that some publishers are fine purchaing ghost-written books, and perhaps others on here can give you advice on that aspect.

But I'm wondering why you don't write it yourselves and use other writers/a writing coach who actually guides instead of writes, for critique to get it in publishable shape?

If you wish to actually be writers, beyond this book. I'd suggest doing the writing yourselves and see where you are.

Of course, if a legitimnate publisher is offering something else - ie, a deal for a ghost-written book - then find an attorney/agent to advise you on the legal ramifications and what you are actually agreeing to before you sign anything or begin working on it with the "coach" or a ghost writer.

Good luck.

~suki

Charlie Horse · Jan 26, 2010

I have several questions. First, if you pay someone to write the book for you where's the satisfaction? Second, if paying someone to write the book for you is something you want to do, then why do you need to let the publisher know unless the person being paid to write explicitly states that they want the credit.? If that's the case, why don't you simply add that persons name to the list of authors? After all, you and your friend came up with the story lines and the 'ghostwriter' simply made them readable.

My last question would be, what's the difference between giving your ideas to a ghostwriter and paying someone to perform and extensive edit on your own writing?

Really, if you want to write books, the only way to learn is to write books. It's like playing the piano. You can listen to piano music but unless you're one of those savant types, that doesn't mean you can sit down and play what you've been listening to.

HConn · Jan 26, 2010

If someone else writes the book, it'll be that person's book. You'll be the subject matter, even if it's fictionalized.

Which may be just fine by you; I don't know. If you want to make a career out of this, you'll need to write this book yourself, submit it, fail to find a publisher, then start over 3-10 (or more) times.

If you don't care about having a career, you might as well write a memoir with this ghostwriter or coach.

Just be aware that, no matter what path you choose, it's pretty unlikely that you'll find a publisher for this book, and any money you sink into it will be lost. FYI.

Libbie · Jan 26, 2010

Just write the book, for corn's sake.

Here is a secret: People who actually finish turning their great ideas into books do it because they sit their butts down every day and work on it. All this wondering and worrying about whether publishers will accept it, whether you need a ghost writer or a writing coach, whether you should pay somebody for help, drawing up character profiles, taking copious notes, and asking questions on forums is taking your time away from writing.

Sit down and write it. You can worry about what publishers will think after it's done.

Libbie · Jan 26, 2010

Neither of you is a writer yet, and you don't know where to begin. Here's where you begin:

1) Read a whole lot of books. Read as often as you can. Don't only read for the enjoyment, but pay attention, as well. What is the writer doing that attracts you? What don't you like about this writer's choices? What kind of characters and interactions interest you? What bores you? Are you more attracted to an elaborate style, or a straightforward style? Read and ask yourself questions about what you're reading as often as you can.

2) Sit down at your computer. Open up a fresh Word document. Start typing.

3) Work on your book every day. Eventually, you'll develop a habit of writing.

4) When you have something finished -- an entire book or just a few chapters -- find a few people to critique it for you. People who will give you honest and helpful feedback, not your friends and family who will blow smoke up your butt.

5) Using the criticism you've received, make changes to your work.

6) Keep writing.

That's how it's done. That's how we all do it. So now you know. Go forth and conquer.

IceCreamEmpress · Jan 26, 2010

In addition to the incredibly helpful Uncle Jim threads and all the other resources here, the book The Weekend Novelist by Robert J. Ray can be helpful to first-time writers, especially people working collaboratively.

As for hiring a ghostwriter, it's a lot more expensive than you probably think. Unless you have at least $7,500 US to spend on a ghostwriter, you're not going to get a professional novelist to write for you, which would highly diminish your chances of ending up with a publishable book and recouping any of the money.

People who can write publishable novels from someone else's ideas have opportunities to do so with series books and other works for hire (novelizations of TV shows and movies, for instance). To get someone good to work with you rather than, say, the Sweet Valley High series, or some other reliably-paying gig with book packagers who have everything set up for quick work from the contributing writers, you'd have to pay above the odds.

blacbird · Jan 26, 2010

Unless you're a famous celeb, or an author with enough publishing clout (see thread about James Patterson), you have no reason to hire a ghost writer. Period.

caw

James D. Macdonald · Jan 26, 2010

breathlesssunset said:
We've been told by a publisher that instead of using a ghostwriter, we can use a writing coach.

Purely out of curiosity, which publisher?

Birol · Jan 26, 2010

Breathless, out of curiosity, what is your motivation for having this book published? Do you think you're going to get rich by turning yours and your friend's idea into a book?

Jamesaritchie · Jan 26, 2010

I've ghosted, and that $7,500 IceCreamEmpress mentioned really is a bare minimum, and it would buy you a very rapidly written book. There's just no way to spend very much time on a book for such small money.

And even with a pro writer on board, there's no guarantee of a publishing contract, so your 7.5K could be lost money.

IceCreamEmpress · Jan 26, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
I've ghosted, and that $7,500 IceCreamEmpress mentioned really is a bare minimum, and it would buy you a very rapidly written book. There's just no way to spend very much time on a book for such small money.

Yes, absolutely. I don't think many people would take a gig with "two people who want to write a novel about their experience" for $7,500 vs. taking a regular series gig from a book packager for $7,500--that's what I meant by "you'd have to pay over the odds."

{But James, if you're getting work-for-hire novel ghosting for more than $7,500 these days, you're doing a lot better than most of the steadily-working ghostwriters I know--everyone, including the well-established series titles, has been cutting fees over the last three or four years. The good old days of well-paying WFH seem to be no more in the current economy.}

And even with a pro writer on board, there's no guarantee of a publishing contract, so your 7.5K could be lost money.

This cannot be underscored enough. Do you really want to gamble thousands and thousands of dollars on this? I mean, even if you sold your book and got an advance, the advance would probably be about the same as what you paid the ghostwriter.

Libbie · Jan 26, 2010

Birol brings up a good point: What's your motivation here? Clearly neither of you has much enthusiasm for writing it yourselves, or at least one of you would be working on it already, and neither of you would be thinking about paying somebody else to do the work for you.

If you think you'll get a lot of money out of publishing, think again. Very few established authors become what most of us would call "rich" from writing, and debut novelists (people selling their first book) rarely make enough to quit their day jobs.

This is neither a fast nor an instantly lucrative business.

scope · Jan 26, 2010

I've authored or co-authored the majority of my books, and I've also done a fair amount of ghostwriting. What IceCream says is true -- the rates have gone down over the past 2-3 years. However, never I have received an amount as low as $7,500 to search out the idea with the individuals and to then write the book. Way, way more, and that's what the OP should bare in mind if they want an experienced, knowledgeable ghostwriter. They don't come cheap, their rate is guaranteed, and the OP must remember that they will be on the hook for other monies.

Ghostwriter To Use or Not To Use

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