Industry Standards

One minute of script equals one minute of film, assuming the script is properly formatted.

200 pages is way too long as someone whose been a reader, I'd have to say your script will be thrown in the garbage.

Don't try to argue with the industry standard, accept it if you're going to be a screenwriter. 90 to a 120 pages is the norm.

Also, from the research I've done on spec scripts, readers don't want to see camera angles, etc. or too many parentheticals, because you're doing the director's and actor's jobs--and as a spec, you don't have the clout to do it.

I have also read that, and this is more of a guideline than a rule, you should try to limit your descriptive paragraphs to around 4 lines each. I believe this is to keep noobies from going overboard.

I hope that helps.

See my other comments on page count and time on the other thread.
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=287404&postcount=24

I can guarantee that if a new writer has a 200 page script and then goes through it line by line, word for word and trim action and dialog to its most effective yet lean form (without actually cutting content), it will be 30-40 pages shorter and more important, a quick read. If you then go through and look at each scene and cut or shorten the ones that don't advance the story forward, you can cut another 30-40.

In other words, a new writer almost always overwrites. Just write it and work on bringing it down later. I'm sure you can get it down to 120-125 if you really try.

I know this guy that wrote a trilogy on young King Arthur coming in at a whopping 300 pages. With some perseverance and guidance, he brought it down to 145 single script and didn't cut anything that wasn't important.

Even something like "John walks into the room, scans the bookshelf and grabs a novel." can be trimmed to "John walks in and grabs a novel off a shelf." thats 64 characters down to 43, a 30% less space but same info. You don't need room, since that would be in the slugline and does he really need to scan? It's implied.

"He runs down the street, around the corner and out of sight."

Six seconds? No. anywhere from 15 to 30 seconds.

The average of dialog and action together, roughly comes to a page a minute. But as I said in another thread. the rule was created as a fake wall, not as a measurement of time.

Intro of characters should be the shortest you can muster, but paint a full and memorable picture.

BOB, 26, makes Gilligan look like a rocket scientist, stumbles over the couch.

SUSIE, 13, but acts like thirty, scowls at her mother as she reluctantly cleans the dishes.

Of course make it funny for comedy, serious otherwise, but short and reveal the true essense of the person. Don't get hung up of dress and appearance, but the character type.

As has been said before, often, read scripts, read lots of scripts, learn how it's done by pro writers instead of asking such basic questions.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity.

Thats because he is giving you bad advice. Pro writers have THEIR OWN style. If you want to learn ONE style and ONE STANDARD pick up david trottiers book. I follow his style. That way you are consistent and have guidance. The last thing you want to do is read 10 different scripts and get confused.

aspiringwriter said:

I've heard of that book so many times... I have a hard time with dialouge though...maybe i'm not cut out to be a writer...who knows??? Then again, I will try my best to get better with dialouge, ect..

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Get it.

Anyways, according to him stick with high concept movies, you can get away easier with poor dialogue. As a noob if your struggling with dialogue you shoudl write in this order, Horror, thrille, action. It took me 2 scriptsof not doing these genre's before I realized I stink at these kinds of movies. Luckily I wrote a horror that Im happy with before I realized this and am about 1/5 through an action and already have another idea for another action lined up that i'm just as passionatte if not more passionate ready to go. So I've got at least 3 movies that are High concept and not based on "drama" once this month is over with. That's a plus for me

You might try to read and act out your dialogue. That's the easiest way to see if it sounds right.

GonnaBeFamous said:

Thats because he is giving you bad advice. Pro writers have THEIR OWN style. If you want to learn ONE style and ONE STANDARD pick up david trottiers book. I follow his style. That way you are consistent and have guidance. The last thing you want to do is read 10 different scripts and get confused.

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I'm sorry, GBF, but Derek's advice is spot on. Honestly, you are the one giving bad advice in this case and showing your naivete. Trottier's debatable skill not-withstanding, reading ONE book to learn ONE style (which you erroneously refer to as a "standard") is one of the worst things a new writer could ever do.

If a reader reads many produced scripts and is "confused," then that writer lacks sufficient understanding of screenwriting and needs to study more before even attempting to type "FADE IN:."

Following one example will give you consistency, you are right about that. Unfortunately, more often than not, it will lead to consistently bad writing.

Format is standard. Structures are similar.

Voice is individual.

Optimus said:

I'm sorry, GBF, but Derek's advice is spot on. Honestly, you are the one giving bad advice in this case and showing your naivete. Trottier's debatable skill not-withstanding, reading ONE book to learn ONE style (which you erroneously refer to as a "standard") is one of the worst things a new writer could ever do.

If a reader reads many produced scripts and is "confused," then that writer lacks sufficient understanding of screenwriting and needs to study more before even attempting to type "FADE IN:."

Following one example will give you consistency, you are right about that. Unfortunately, more often than not, it will lead to consistently bad writing.

Format is standard. Structures are similar.

Voice is individual.

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ROFLMAO, so your implying basically David Trottier doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. I dare you to say that to his face in West Hollywood.

As long as your story is somewhat original you can get away with a cliche Horror film. They all work the same.

Just look at the newer movie Bloody Murder 2.

The mask he's wearing is like SCREAM-ish and the setting is in a camp in the forest, oh how very JASON-ish.

If you struggle with Dialogue I would do at least one horror film.

The only reason why I haven't done anymore and have moved to action is because actions sell a lot and well frankly I haven't come up with any new ideas for a horror. There is so many horrors out there and all it's hard to come up with an original twist on a horror, so for now Action it is.

GonnaBeFamous said:

ROFLMAO, so your implying basically David Trottier doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. I dare you to say that to his face in West Hollywood.

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Yet again you've glossed over and missed the entire point.

Dave is a nice guy and although his style is somewhat stiff and some of his formatting rules is a bit dated, it is good to learn the basics of formatting from a real pro (even though he has only two B film credits in the past 11 years).

But what I believe Opti is saying is that you can learn how to format from Dave, but in order to develop your own style you need to read a variety of work to compare, contrast and get inspiration from.

I know so many new writers, and I can assume there are many more out in the world, who use Dave's "Bible" so much that they are Dave clones.

Sure they can write a script that looks slick in apearance, but it isn't in substance. Dave can't teach you that.

Just for fun's sake let's pull this back down to the basic level, and Gonna, that doesn't mean let's talk about what genre you've decided you're going to be great at writing, or what the latest obscure horror movie is.

Aspiring, you're having problems with character descriptions? How about you go back to the last 5 or 10 scripts you've read and copy/paste the introduction character descriptions into a file. Forget the rest of the scripts for now, just focus on the descriptions. Try to see which words work most effectively for you -- which words paint a picture, which words tell you something important about the characters that you maybe can't see on screen, but would wish to know. Personality traits or actions, not just physical features.

Here's some samples from screenplays I've happened to read over the past week or two, some modern, some classic:

From "Sunset Boulevard":
Joe Gillis, bare-footed and wearing nothing but an old bath-robe. is sitting on the bed. In front of him, on a straight chair, is a portable typewriter. Beside him, on the bed, is a dirty ashtray and a scattering of type written and pencil-marked pages. Gillis is typing, with a pencil clenched between his teeth.
(Gillis is a hack screenwriter, we meet him as he's working. Not quite as glamorous a profession as you thought.)

From "Sweet Smell Of Success":
...approaching a smartly dressed young man, who stands at the counter of the Orange Juice stand. Oblivious of the hub-bub around him, SIDNEY FALCO is concerned only with his private problems.
(Hustler Sidney is impatiently waiting for the latest edition newspaper to arrive at the newsstand so he can figure where his next buck is coming from.)

Here's two descriptions from "xXx" -- the teaser features an action scene with a James Bond type spy, later we meet the script's protag:
The Intruder pulls off his mask, revealing the chiseled
features of a dashing BRITISH SECRET AGENT. His name is
STERLING.
...
He is XANDER CAGE. He's got a shaved head, bizarre TATTOOS
all over his body and multiple PIERCINGS. He's lean and
heavily cut, even dangerous looking.

These descriptions are from "Ronin" -- several characters are introduced one after the other yet all have individual, unique traits:
LARRY, the Ugly American. He's got
an obvious attitude, all of it bad. But there's something
about the guy -- he's not all bluster, and he has the look of
a seasoned tough guy who knows how to get rough and tumble.
He's big, and yeah he's got a gut, but the rest of him looks
solid.
...
This is VINCENT: French,
hard boiled and solid. Charming when he wants to be, which
isn't all that often.
...
And we see a woman named DEIRDRE on the
phone: striking, dark-haired, Irish. She carries herself
with the same professional edge as the men inside the bar.
...
The silhouette steps into a POOL OF LIGHT. This is SAM.
Tough, lean, enigmatic. Somebody you might trust, but whom
you'd never cross.

...Do these give you any hints, any fresh thoughts on how to intro your own characters?

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity.

Dude, Derek. That rocks. Good idea, man!

Derek, Aspiring is saying that he can't read scripts without getting confused. No disrespect meant, but he's basically saying he has a learning disability. If it's that severe he'll need professional treatment to overcome it. If he cannot over come it, then he won't be able to comprehend the scripts.

JustinoXXV said:

Derek, Aspiring is saying that he can't read scripts without getting confused. No disrespect meant, but he's basically saying he has a learning disability. If it's that severe he'll need professional treatment to overcome it. If he cannot over come it, then he won't be able to comprehend the scripts.

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I got that, thanks, but going one step further and trying to focus on specific problems like describing characters (see message #21 in this thread) seemed worth a shot. If concentrating on and absorbing little bits of information at a time doesn't work either then it doesn't work, shrug. Disability and treatment, if any, most likely lie outwith the scope of this forum.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity.

Pages

JustinoXXV said:

One minute of script equals one minute of film, assuming the script is properly formatted.

200 pages is way too long as someone whose been a reader, I'd have to say your script will be thrown in the garbage.

Don't try to argue with the industry standard, accept it if you're going to be a screenwriter. 90 to a 120 pages is the norm.

Click to expand...

FWIW - TV talking heads/news readers speak at three words per second, and that's the way scripts are written for them. Trivia, but maybe interesting.

I have a related question: On a script (about a singer) I'm rewriting, there are six songs and before anybody mentions it, I will; that's too many and, no, the music isn't included (politics will come into play on that and I'm going to stay out of it). Regardless, that's surely going to mess up the "rule" about the number of pages. As is, the script is likely to be around 80 pages. Maybe less.

Any recommendations or suggestions on how that should be handled, short of adding enough blank pages so it'll "look and feel" like 90-120?