Industry Standards

[aspiringwriter]

I know there has already been some discussion on a previous thread...However, I wanted to ask a general question because it pertains to a screenplay i'm working on.

I have heard the industry "standard" is 120 pages, take a few or so... Does that mean for each page it equals a minute of screen time? Or do you add camera angles, ect and that makes it longer? Maybe i'm asking the wrong question, then again maybe not... See as many of you already know by now i'm working on a screenplay that spans 50 years or so...I've run into the problem it's going to be longer than I want it...In short it might be 200 pages by the time i'm finished.

Anyway, i've contemplated on changing the story around, having it start in present day and go back... However i'm not going to post any of it until i'm 100% done with the first draft and then will go from there...Any help would be appreciated.

~Bill~

[JustinoXXV]

One minute of script equals one minute of film, assuming the script is properly formatted.

200 pages is way too long as someone whose been a reader, I'd have to say your script will be thrown in the garbage.

Don't try to argue with the industry standard, accept it if you're going to be a screenwriter. 90 to a 120 pages is the norm.

[MitchJ]

Also, from the research I've done on spec scripts, readers don't want to see camera angles, etc. or too many parentheticals, because you're doing the director's and actor's jobs--and as a spec, you don't have the clout to do it.

I have also read that, and this is more of a guideline than a rule, you should try to limit your descriptive paragraphs to around 4 lines each. I believe this is to keep noobies from going overboard.

I hope that helps.

[Joe Calabrese]

See my other comments on page count and time on the other thread.
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=287404&postcount=24

I can guarantee that if a new writer has a 200 page script and then goes through it line by line, word for word and trim action and dialog to its most effective yet lean form (without actually cutting content), it will be 30-40 pages shorter and more important, a quick read. If you then go through and look at each scene and cut or shorten the ones that don't advance the story forward, you can cut another 30-40.

In other words, a new writer almost always overwrites. Just write it and work on bringing it down later. I'm sure you can get it down to 120-125 if you really try.

I know this guy that wrote a trilogy on young King Arthur coming in at a whopping 300 pages. With some perseverance and guidance, he brought it down to 145 single script and didn't cut anything that wasn't important.

Even something like "John walks into the room, scans the bookshelf and grabs a novel." can be trimmed to "John walks in and grabs a novel off a shelf." thats 64 characters down to 43, a 30% less space but same info. You don't need room, since that would be in the slugline and does he really need to scan? It's implied.

[aspiringwriter]

So if I have 120 pages, that means it's 120-minutes? Characters don't take that long to speak, and actions don't take that long either... For instance...

INT. LIVING ROOM-NIGHT

SARAH, 34, thin and tanned sits on the couch, with her arms folded. She wears her night clothes.

BRAD, 33, tall and confident comes in wearing his business suit.

BRAD
Someone sure looks nice tonight.

SARAH
You're late.

Brad sits down next to his wife, she scoots away from him.

BRAD
What's the matter?

And so on.... see it doesn't take that long to speak or carry out the action, BUT with the action and dialouge a thirty-second scene might take a full page...:) Am I wrong here or what?

[Joe Calabrese]

"He runs down the street, around the corner and out of sight."

Six seconds? No. anywhere from 15 to 30 seconds.

The average of dialog and action together, roughly comes to a page a minute. But as I said in another thread. the rule was created as a fake wall, not as a measurement of time.

[aspiringwriter]

What about description? Especially when you introduce characters?? Maybe i'm just way too confused :) which isn't anything uncommon these days....

[Joe Calabrese]

Intro of characters should be the shortest you can muster, but paint a full and memorable picture.

BOB, 26, makes Gilligan look like a rocket scientist, stumbles over the couch.

SUSIE, 13, but acts like thirty, scowls at her mother as she reluctantly cleans the dishes.

Of course make it funny for comedy, serious otherwise, but short and reveal the true essense of the person. Don't get hung up of dress and appearance, but the character type.

[dpaterso]

As has been said before, often, read scripts, read lots of scripts, learn how it's done by pro writers instead of asking such basic questions.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57/scripts.htm)

[aspiringwriter]

I've read scripts and they confuse me even more, mainly because they are all completely different, and if I see too much then it confuses me.... Just a thing I have is all.

[GonnaBeFamous]

Thats because he is giving you bad advice. Pro writers have THEIR OWN style. If you want to learn ONE style and ONE STANDARD pick up david trottiers book. I follow his style. That way you are consistent and have guidance. The last thing you want to do is read 10 different scripts and get confused.

[aspiringwriter]

I've heard of that book so many times...:) I have a hard time with dialouge though...maybe i'm not cut out to be a writer...who knows??? Then again, I will try my best to get better with dialouge, ect..

[GonnaBeFamous]

I've heard of that book so many times...:) I have a hard time with dialouge though...maybe i'm not cut out to be a writer...who knows??? Then again, I will try my best to get better with dialouge, ect..

Get it.

Anyways, according to him stick with high concept movies, you can get away easier with poor dialogue. As a noob if your struggling with dialogue you shoudl write in this order, Horror, thrille, action. It took me 2 scriptsof not doing these genre's before I realized I stink at these kinds of movies. Luckily I wrote a horror that Im happy with before I realized this and am about 1/5 through an action and already have another idea for another action lined up that i'm just as passionatte if not more passionate ready to go. So I've got at least 3 movies that are High concept and not based on "drama" once this month is over with. That's a plus for me

You might try to read and act out your dialogue. That's the easiest way to see if it sounds right.

[aspiringwriter]

I know and I love horror, but there is a lot of description, which if I were to write something like that, i'm sure it would get raked over the coals...(like there's not enough to show, or there's too much...that sort of thing).... I am very passionate about this screenplay i'm working on and I will stick to it HOWEVER I might write a horror, see how it turns out.

Although I did write horror once before, and of course just about everyone said it was too cliche...well aren't all horror movies cliche? Other than Wes Craven the same things have been done OVER and OVER and OVER.... Well you get the point?? What i'm saying is that everyone says a Horror movie should be original... and sometimes originality just doesn't seem to be the norm....

[Optimus]

Thats because he is giving you bad advice. Pro writers have THEIR OWN style. If you want to learn ONE style and ONE STANDARD pick up david trottiers book. I follow his style. That way you are consistent and have guidance. The last thing you want to do is read 10 different scripts and get confused.

I'm sorry, GBF, but Derek's advice is spot on. Honestly, you are the one giving bad advice in this case and showing your naivete. Trottier's debatable skill not-withstanding, reading ONE book to learn ONE style (which you erroneously refer to as a "standard") is one of the worst things a new writer could ever do.

If a reader reads many produced scripts and is "confused," then that writer lacks sufficient understanding of screenwriting and needs to study more before even attempting to type "FADE IN:."

Following one example will give you consistency, you are right about that. Unfortunately, more often than not, it will lead to consistently bad writing.

Format is standard. Structures are similar.

Voice is individual.

[GonnaBeFamous]

I'm sorry, GBF, but Derek's advice is spot on. Honestly, you are the one giving bad advice in this case and showing your naivete. Trottier's debatable skill not-withstanding, reading ONE book to learn ONE style (which you erroneously refer to as a "standard") is one of the worst things a new writer could ever do.

If a reader reads many produced scripts and is "confused," then that writer lacks sufficient understanding of screenwriting and needs to study more before even attempting to type "FADE IN:."

Following one example will give you consistency, you are right about that. Unfortunately, more often than not, it will lead to consistently bad writing.

Format is standard. Structures are similar.

Voice is individual.


ROFLMAO, so your implying basically David Trottier doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. I dare you to say that to his face in West Hollywood. :)

[GonnaBeFamous]

As long as your story is somewhat original you can get away with a cliche Horror film. They all work the same.

Just look at the newer movie Bloody Murder 2.

The mask he's wearing is like SCREAM-ish and the setting is in a camp in the forest, oh how very JASON-ish.

If you struggle with Dialogue I would do at least one horror film.

The only reason why I haven't done anymore and have moved to action is because actions sell a lot and well frankly I haven't come up with any new ideas for a horror. There is so many horrors out there and all it's hard to come up with an original twist on a horror, so for now Action it is.

[Optimus]

ROFLMAO, so your implying basically David Trottier doesn't know what the hell he is talking about. I dare you to say that to his face in West Hollywood. :)

Yet again you've glossed over and missed the entire point.

[Joe Calabrese]

Dave is a nice guy and although his style is somewhat stiff and some of his formatting rules is a bit dated, it is good to learn the basics of formatting from a real pro (even though he has only two B film credits in the past 11 years).

But what I believe Opti is saying is that you can learn how to format from Dave, but in order to develop your own style you need to read a variety of work to compare, contrast and get inspiration from.

I know so many new writers, and I can assume there are many more out in the world, who use Dave's "Bible" so much that they are Dave clones.

Sure they can write a script that looks slick in apearance, but it isn't in substance. Dave can't teach you that.

[aspiringwriter]

My problem is (and i'm not trying to play it off as an excuse) but I have adult ADD and the more I see, the more I get confused... What i'm saying is that if I see a lot my mind gets scrambled...That's why sometimes I start writing and think it's good but in others' eyes it's not...

I have read a many scripts and of course they are all different... things jumble in my mind and things get crossed... Like I said, i'm not trying to use my disability as an excuse, but it gives you an understanding as to why I get confused so easily...

~Bill~

[dpaterso]

Just for fun's sake let's pull this back down to the basic level, and Gonna, that doesn't mean let's talk about what genre you've decided you're going to be great at writing, or what the latest obscure horror movie is.

Aspiring, you're having problems with character descriptions? How about you go back to the last 5 or 10 scripts you've read and copy/paste the introduction character descriptions into a file. Forget the rest of the scripts for now, just focus on the descriptions. Try to see which words work most effectively for you -- which words paint a picture, which words tell you something important about the characters that you maybe can't see on screen, but would wish to know. Personality traits or actions, not just physical features.

Here's some samples from screenplays I've happened to read over the past week or two, some modern, some classic:

From "Sunset Boulevard":
Joe Gillis, bare-footed and wearing nothing but an old bath-robe. is sitting on the bed. In front of him, on a straight chair, is a portable typewriter. Beside him, on the bed, is a dirty ashtray and a scattering of type written and pencil-marked pages. Gillis is typing, with a pencil clenched between his teeth.
(Gillis is a hack screenwriter, we meet him as he's working. Not quite as glamorous a profession as you thought.)

From "Sweet Smell Of Success":
...approaching a smartly dressed young man, who stands at the counter of the Orange Juice stand. Oblivious of the hub-bub around him, SIDNEY FALCO is concerned only with his private problems.
(Hustler Sidney is impatiently waiting for the latest edition newspaper to arrive at the newsstand so he can figure where his next buck is coming from.)

Here's two descriptions from "xXx" -- the teaser features an action scene with a James Bond type spy, later we meet the script's protag:
The Intruder pulls off his mask, revealing the chiseled
features of a dashing BRITISH SECRET AGENT. His name is
STERLING.
...
He is XANDER CAGE. He's got a shaved head, bizarre TATTOOS
all over his body and multiple PIERCINGS. He's lean and
heavily cut, even dangerous looking.

These descriptions are from "Ronin" -- several characters are introduced one after the other yet all have individual, unique traits:
LARRY, the Ugly American. He's got
an obvious attitude, all of it bad. But there's something
about the guy -- he's not all bluster, and he has the look of
a seasoned tough guy who knows how to get rough and tumble.
He's big, and yeah he's got a gut, but the rest of him looks
solid.
...
This is VINCENT: French,
hard boiled and solid. Charming when he wants to be, which
isn't all that often.
...
And we see a woman named DEIRDRE on the
phone: striking, dark-haired, Irish. She carries herself
with the same professional edge as the men inside the bar.
...
The silhouette steps into a POOL OF LIGHT. This is SAM.
Tough, lean, enigmatic. Somebody you might trust, but whom
you'd never cross.

...Do these give you any hints, any fresh thoughts on how to intro your own characters?

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57/scripts.htm)

[TheRuleofThirds]

Dude, Derek. That rocks. Good idea, man!

[JustinoXXV]

Derek, Aspiring is saying that he can't read scripts without getting confused. No disrespect meant, but he's basically saying he has a learning disability. If it's that severe he'll need professional treatment to overcome it. If he cannot over come it, then he won't be able to comprehend the scripts.

[dpaterso]

Derek, Aspiring is saying that he can't read scripts without getting confused. No disrespect meant, but he's basically saying he has a learning disability. If it's that severe he'll need professional treatment to overcome it. If he cannot over come it, then he won't be able to comprehend the scripts.I got that, thanks, but going one step further and trying to focus on specific problems like describing characters (see message #21 in this thread) seemed worth a shot. If concentrating on and absorbing little bits of information at a time doesn't work either then it doesn't work, shrug. Disability and treatment, if any, most likely lie outwith the scope of this forum.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57/scripts.htm)

[Enigma]

One minute of script equals one minute of film, assuming the script is properly formatted.

200 pages is way too long as someone whose been a reader, I'd have to say your script will be thrown in the garbage.

Don't try to argue with the industry standard, accept it if you're going to be a screenwriter. 90 to a 120 pages is the norm.

FWIW - TV talking heads/news readers speak at three words per second, and that's the way scripts are written for them. Trivia, but maybe interesting.

I have a related question: On a script (about a singer) I'm rewriting, there are six songs and before anybody mentions it, I will; that's too many and, no, the music isn't included (politics will come into play on that and I'm going to stay out of it). Regardless, that's surely going to mess up the "rule" about the number of pages. As is, the script is likely to be around 80 pages. Maybe less.

Any recommendations or suggestions on how that should be handled, short of adding enough blank pages so it'll "look and feel" like 90-120? http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Joe Calabrese]

Any recommendations or suggestions on how that should be handled, short of adding enough blank pages so it'll "look and feel" like 90-120? http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif Yes, add story, not filler.

[Enigma]

Yes, add story, not filler.

Sounds good, BUT, if I add more story, sooner or later it might dawn on someone that while there are, say, the standard 90-125 pages, the 22 or so minutes of music aren't factored into the formula.

Catch 22?

[dpaterso]

Just an idea, I'd aim for 90 pages, the lower recommended limit for a spec screenplay, so the 20+ minutes of song and dance and strippers doesn't push running time too far above the upper 120 page limit.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57/scripts.htm)

[Joe Calabrese]

Sounds good, BUT, if I add more story, sooner or later it might dawn on someone that while there are, say, the standard 90-125 pages, the 22 or so minutes of music aren't factored into the formula.

Catch 22? Huh?

[Enigma]

Just an idea, I'd aim for 90 pages, the lower recommended limit for a spec screenplay, so the 20+ minutes of song and dance and strippers doesn't push running time too far above the upper 120 page limit.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57/scripts.htm)

STRIPPERS! Great idea, but first I've gotta go out and do the research! http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif That movie by Demi Moore - "Striptease" I think it was called - was terrible/gross/horrible/bad (pick one, or all, to describe it), except for one scene, and I think we all know which one that was.

Sex sells!

I've since done a little research on how I might extend the length (pages), and that could be by double spacing between scenes and adding dissolve(s) and maybe a few cuts here and there, and/or by reducing the headers and footers by a fraction or so, which might not be noticed. I'll keep those options open and not worry about the length for now.

Um. I wonder if Demi might be interested in.... http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Joe Calabrese]

I've since done a little research on how I might extend the length (pages), and that could be by double spacing between scenes and adding dissolve(s) and maybe a few cuts here and there, and/or by reducing the headers and footers by a fraction or so, which might not be noticed. I'll keep those options open and not worry about the length for now. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

Adding CUT TO'S:, and transitions for the sake of adding them, and such, is the kiss of death and cheat the margins and you will be caught. In you have Final Draft you can go into "loose" mode and that is about as far as I will go.

Instead of thinking on how to cheat, think about content. You'll be better off in the long run.

But if you must pad, then think about periodically breaking up long paragraphs or long dialog with pertinent action in between.

But don't cheat the margins. When you have read thousands of script, you can spot an 1/8 of an inch from a mile away.

[Enigma]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

Adding CUT TO'S:, and transitions for the sake of adding them, and such, is the kiss of death and cheat the margins and you will be caught. In you have Final Draft you can go into "loose" mode and that is about as far as I will go.

Instead of thinking on how to cheat, think about content. You'll be better off in the long run.

But if you must pad, then think about periodically breaking up long paragraphs or long dialog with pertinent action in between.

But don't cheat the margins. When you have read thousands of script, you can spot an 1/8 of an inch from a mile away.

"Content" is exactly what I'm thinking about on this one, Joe, that and "quality." It's a dark drama with a tragic ending. Breaking up long speechs with action is well taken. That should work but it's bare bones as is - because I've been "listening" to you guys. Intensity is what this one is all about; what they do on screen, rather than what is said.

I'm very passionate about this story, I guess because I lived part of it many years ago. It has to be perfect, as much as I can make it.

Before it goes out, trust me, I'll have coverage done on it, twice (a bad habit of this old reporter - trust, but verify), plus someone who is a publisher in the music business will vet it for me, and open doors when the time comes. He was there too, and he knows about the story. He's already made a well-taken suggestion; don't lock in one genre of music. e.g. - leave that open, and that's being done. Blue-Grass, no, but you know what I mean - rock or country. That's where the money is.

Miles to go before I sleep, and a lot of questions still to be asked.

Let's see. Where was I? Oh, yes....

[preyer]

just to comment on what joe, i believe it was, said about speeding up the pace by shortening the actual character count, which, ostensibly, usually involves shorter words. i'm not an editor or anything, but i've critiqued plenty of fiction stories on a friendly level (mostly friendly, at least) where the writer (which applies to me, too, to be fair) can almost always use one word to suffice for three many, many, many times.

what writers lack most often is the ability to edit their own stuff. i've been told often enough to believe it that my writing is fast-paced. that doesn't come naturally, it comes from my ability, such as it is, to edit my own stuff rather ruthlessly, not so much in story but in content. i've harped on people's inability to be their own editor so many times i almost hate mentioning it yet again.

so, if it's important in scripts as it is in 'literature' to be extremely economical with your actual space, i want to share the method that just happened to work best for me. it may not be the best, i don't know, and it surely won't work for anyone, but it won't hurt, either. :) (i arrived at this method as a result of a fun contest. if it's in a thousand how-to books, sorry if i'm being obvious or redundant.)

take any short story off the net that's clearly not professionally done. copy it into a file so you can play with it. don't bother telling the author you're using their story as an excercise, it doesn't matter, it's just for your own personal edification, not a critique for *them.* do a word count. (bear in mind that editors don't go by a word programme's word count. there's a formula for determining how many words you wrote which does not reflect the actual number of words you really wrote. 'word count' has more to do with space for an editor looking at a novel.)

say the word programme's word count is 2,000 actual words. your goal is to reduce that word count to 1,500 words. there are several ways to do it, from eliminating pronouns to writing in an active voice to combining phrases into one or two better-fitting words. after your second excercise, you'll be able to recognize the 'errors' in your own writing, particularly for fiction, probably, i assume, for scripts, too. i've found that this also dramatically cuts down on the time it takes for you to put distance between you and your first draft. why wait two weeks when you can start tomorrow and show real advancements in the writing?

i can take most of my short stories and reduce them by a third. novel-length stories, my goal is a quarter of the actual word count. the one place i really don't go overboard is in the dialogue: i'll cut a lot out of what they say up to the point where they start losing their individuality.

i think what helped me the most was setting a goal. next was being able to achieve that goal with someone *else's* story i didn't care about, not my own baby. that was really the key. it was weird: once i could obliterate someone else's work, doing so to my own was tremendously easier. true, most people will never be 100% editor of their own stuff, but i think you can be 80% with what's really just a few daze practice.

and, no, i don't practice that method with my posts, as i'm sure some people would like, lol.

hope that's at least food for thought. i mention that really in hopes that someone forgets all about padding out a novel or script because of lack of content, rather reduce the word count/space to a point where you can add *more* and still fit comfortably within the standards, as long as what you're adding is pertinent, of course. this way, at least, there's no reason not to include all the characters and side-plots you might otherwise feel are too burdensome but really aren't. (side plots are where a lot of your drama's impact is built, no? for example, by removing the side-plots from 'the godfather,' michael corleone's downfall has much less impact. we never really had to see the woman's white trash family in 'million dollar baby,' yet it provides the one sense of justice there was and was very satisfying. the incestual machinations of 'gladiator's' commodus gave his sister an urgency beyond the politics which threatened to weaken the movie were it not there. the point is, adding the right sub-plot could work wonders to the depth of not only the story, but the characters as well, given the idea the side-plot isn't frivolous.)