I need help... Loigical aid to be exact...

Rasun12

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Okay a few weeks back in a visit to a site called "Scribophile" I made a statement that Criticism for the most part might as well have been worthless since all it took for Twilight be popular and proclaimed as a wonderfully written book is because appeals to the fantasies of Shallow Teen girls who long for the "Perfect Boyfriend." The build up imo is slow, or to be frank almost nonexistant, there's virtually no plot, and even though Bella and Edward do take some time to supposedly get to know each other, I expect that's all going to be pummeled to dust by a Lustful aspect, because it keeps showing up. The story for the most part in my eyes is a series of chained events with no foundational plot to keep them grounded. Which made me look at the criticism I recieved on Scribophile from the first chapter of Princess Of The Damned, and ask these questions:

1. Is Constructive criticism for a writer really necessary since it appears all you need to do is write a series of well constructed, and plotless sentences that appeal to the fantasies of an ignorant target audience?

2. If constructive Criticism is necessary, and essential to a writer's potential then why is it rarely ever respected?

3. Since Twilight is such a huge hit among teens is my target audience of teenagers and young adults overcoming Life-Changing obstacles, neigh-sayers, and persecutors to achieve a life long goal practically non-existent in today's society? Because where as I mention that to be my target audience for my book in my queries, I keep getting rejected by Young Adult Fiction Agents. Maybe it's because the book is a Post Apocalyptic fiction that deals with a demon girl who kills priests... I'm not sure...

But the main question I really want answered is what am I doing wrong? What does it take to get a freaking hook in today's Literary Industry, because my approach of wanting to appeal to individuals who want to achieve something in life is getting me nowhere, except closer to becoming a starving artist living in a cardboard box, or that 40 year old nerd living in his parents' basement.
 

kuwisdelu

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1. Is Constructive criticism for a writer really necessary since it appears all you need to do is write a series of well constructed, and plotless sentences that appeal to the fantasies of an ignorant target audience?

If you became successful like that, would you be satisfied with yourself?

I wouldn't be.

2. If constructive Criticism is necessary, and essential to a writer's potential then why is it rarely ever respected?

:Wha:

3. Since Twilight is such a huge hit among teens is my target audience of teenagers and young adults overcoming Life-Changing obstacles, neigh-sayers, and persecutors to achieve a life long goal practically non-existent in today's society? Because where as I mention that to be my target audience for my book in my queries, I keep getting rejected by Young Adult Fiction Agents. Maybe it's because the book is a Post Apocalyptic fiction that deals with a demon girl who kills priests... I'm not sure...

But the main question I really want answered is what am I doing wrong? What does it take to get a freaking hook in today's Literary Industry, because my approach of wanting to appeal to individuals who want to achieve something in life is getting me nowhere, except closer to becoming a starving artist living in a cardboard box, or that 40 year old nerd living in his parents' basement.

Maybe take that constructive criticism you got and use it to make your writing better.
 

lucidzfl

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That was a lot of lead up/ranting just to get to your questions. Isn't that kind of exactly what you're bashing in your post? lol

Anyways.

1. of course it is. What kind of question is that?

2. Because a lot of new writers are a namby pamby group of pussies who can't handle anyone telling them that their writing is flawless and gorgeous. I can't count how many new writers I've seen say "No, you just don't understand" or "It makes sense to me!"

3. Because your book isn't any good/ready.

To answer your "main question" Stop worrying about the book you wrote. Start writing something else.

And an unsolicited response. Stop worrying about fucking twilight.

Step 1. Write your own books.
Step 2. Get published.
Step 3. Laugh at Stephanie Meyer.
Step 4. Stephanie Meyer cant hear you over the sound of how rich she is.
 

Calla Lily

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What have your beta readers said about your book?

Has your query been rejected on its own or with sample chapters? Does your query follow standard format?

I wonder why you're writing for YA when your post denigrates your target audience so much.
 

lucidzfl

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What have your beta readers said about your book?

Has your query been rejected on its own or with sample chapters? Does your query follow standard format?

I wonder why you're writing for YA when your post denigrates your target audience so much.

I thought the same thing, but felt my post was harsh enough without adding that final jab :D
 

Amarie

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Rasun,
I know you are new here, so you might want to check out some of the other threads that discuss Twilight. Your best bet, though, is to forget about Twilight and concentrate on your own work. The market is very tight now, so your rejections could be due to any number of factors. If you haven't posted your query in Share Your Work, it's a good idea to do so.
 

LostInReality

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Here's my two pennies...spend them as you will. :)

Critique is important. Only those who are new to this or are too arrogant to realize that everyone is human and thus not perfect ignore advice given.

That said. Everyone is currently obsessed with Twilight, and while it's a good thing to know that Stephenie Meyer has made many teens who were once non-readers into voracious bookworms, she has also birthed A LOT of would-be writers who want to write the next Twilight and make millions. Don't be one of those writers that is forever likening your work to someone else (Meyer or anyone else...say Dean Koontz).

My point being: Let your work stand alone.

Also, I agree with CallaLily. Your post seems very mean-spirited toward a group that you say is your intended audience. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you really feel that teens today are so vacant, maybe you should consider switching genres.
 

Mr Flibble

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1 - Depends. If you want to be satisfied with what you've written and not have people point at laugh at your work, then yes, yes it is. If you don't care about what you write or that people point and laugh, then I suppose you can live without

2 - People don't respect constructive criticism? Did you not respect what you were told in that thread? Anyway, good writers do respect it ( even when they disagree with it).

3 - I suspect you aren't ready yet, or your query needs work or ...any number of things. Difficult to say without more information.
 

Rasun12

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If you became successful like that, would you be satisfied with yourself?

I wouldn't be.

*Facepalm*

Good point, because I didn't start submitting my work because I wanted to be rich. Long story short I started submitting my comic-books/manga and novels when I was 17, because the thought of sitting in a studio drawing my comics with a team, and writing my stories on a computer appealed to me. It was my absolute fantasy and is one of the aspects that drives me to seek a publisher this very day. I don't care if I'm the next big thing, I would perfer not to be because of my great love of solitude. I'm just frustrated because as poor as my current writing prowess, I'm surprised that there's a person 20 or so years older than me became this popular by writing something just as bad.


:Wha:



Maybe take that constructive criticism you got and use it to make your writing better.

I intend to do so, once I learn more about showing and not telling a story.

That was a lot of lead up/ranting just to get to your questions. Isn't that kind of exactly what you're bashing in your post? lol

Anyways.

1. of course it is. What kind of question is that?

2. Because a lot of new writers are a namby pamby group of pussies who can't handle anyone telling them that their writing is flawless and gorgeous. I can't count how many new writers I've seen say "No, you just don't understand" or "It makes sense to me!"

3. Because your book isn't any good/ready.

To answer your "main question" Stop worrying about the book you wrote. Start writing something else.

And an unsolicited response. Stop worrying about fucking twilight.

Step 1. Write your own books.
Step 2. Get published.
Step 3. Laugh at Stephanie Meyer.
Step 4. Stephanie Meyer cant hear you over the sound of how rich she is.

Well I've know you've already explained this just now in answering question 2, but I asked that question because,(and yes I've been guilty of this too) some aspiring writers when constructively crticized will bite your head off.

2. Well that explains what I've been doing...

3. Also 3, I've spent 4 years working on Princess Of The Damned that's more than enough time for it to be ready. Also I've set it aside for other projects none of which I know would fair well in today's market. I'm growing sick of having all these unfinished projects lying around, so I'm trying to finish them at once. Besides telling me that I should write something else in my mind confirm that the target audience I'm writing for is nonexistent.

And how can I not worry about Twilight when I'm reading it to form my own opinion instead of going with what everyone else is saying about how poorly written it is? Also I know how people like to compare one series to another so that's one aspect I worry about since I might go with working with Dark Roast Publishing if I can't find a Printing angency to work with.

And thank you for those reassuring quotes... Though it's not Meyer I'm worried about it's the damn audience...

What have your beta readers said about your book?

I'm sorry ma'am, but I must've drank a glass of ignorance this morning with my cereal, but what are "Beta-Readers?"

Has your query been rejected on its own or with sample chapters? Does your query follow standard format?

I wonder why you're writing for YA when your post denigrates your target audience so much.

Well to answer your questions yes I do give a brief bio, the story's title, a summary of it, plot, and the target audience, and how the story will appeal to them. And there are times when yes I do include sample chapters.

Also that little rant of mine is why I waited a few days before making this post, because I was rip-roaring pissed a few days ago because of said situation in my "rant," and didn't want to repeat any mistakes. But to answer your question: I decided four years ago to write your Young Adults, yet have denigrated them in my because from my experience there are two types of people in this world:"Those who live in a fantasy state of mind, and think they are owed everything, and those who strive to make something of their existence despite what life may throw at them."

I feel my target audience is nonexistant is because every time I look up from the floor, I see the opposite of what I'm seeking to appeal to.

Rasun,
I know you are new here, so you might want to check out some of the other threads that discuss Twilight. Your best bet, though, is to forget about Twilight and concentrate on your own work. The market is very tight now, so your rejections could be due to any number of factors. If you haven't posted your query in Share Your Work, it's a good idea to do so.

Y'know I should do that maybe then I can get some answers as to why I keep getting rejected...

Here's my two pennies...spend them as you will. :)

Critique is important. Only those who are new to this or are too arrogant to realize that everyone is human and thus not perfect ignore advice given.

That said. Everyone is currently obsessed with Twilight, and while it's a good thing to know that Stephenie Meyer has made many teens who were once non-readers into voracious bookworms, she has also birthed A LOT of would-be writers who want to write the next Twilight and make millions. Don't be one of those writers that is forever likening your work to someone else (Meyer or anyone else...say Dean Koontz).

My point being: Let your work stand alone.

Also, I agree with CallaLily. Your post seems very mean-spirited toward a group that you say is your intended audience. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you really feel that teens today are so vacant, maybe you should consider switching genres.

My work already stands alone seeing as how the main character is a demon girl "tom-boy" who's fighting for something Demons can't have which is God's grace. Hell not even Christian Publishers would take this project despite that being the premise, because she also kills misguided priests who are manipulated by Mammon. Also I started writing Princess Of The Damned when I was 17 back in 2006 when Twilight was just another book, and maybe I should switch genres, or just write manga since that seems easier to publish than a novel right now.

Also as I told Cailalily, that mean spirited post is the reason, why I wanted to wait a few days after signing up again, because when I did, I was still irritated with how my audience is a figment of my imagination. Because if there was a market for teens and young adults out there who are entertained by an action oriented novel that deals with a demon girl seeking to achieve an incredible goal, I figured I'd be here writing a better high spirited post. But that isn't the case is it?

1 - Depends. If you want to be satisfied with what you've written and not have people point at laugh at your work, then yes, yes it is. If you don't care about what you write or that people point and laugh, then I suppose you can live without

2 - People don't respect constructive criticism? Did you not respect what you were told in that thread? Anyway, good writers do respect it ( even when they disagree with it).

3 - I suspect you aren't ready yet, or your query needs work or ...any number of things. Difficult to say without more information.

1. Well while I know I won't be able to please everybody much like all writers, I really do want to avoid being laughed at.

2. While I did respect what was told to me, and did find it helpful, I have in time's past come across some who would figuretively "kick me, or anyone else in the chin" if we offered some good advice. Also there is the factor oif fans who get pissy if you criticize a story they like, I've seen that one youtube.

3. I knew I should've provided more info, also I keep getting told "You're story's not right for us." Hence my pissy rant denigrating teens these days at the start of this thread, because I used to think that there was a market for my story.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Okay a few weeks back in a visit to a site called "Scribophile" I made a statement that Criticism for the most part might as well have been worthless since all it took for Twilight be popular and proclaimed as a wonderfully written book is because appeals to the fantasies of Shallow Teen girls who long for the "Perfect Boyfriend." The build up imo is slow, or to be frank almost nonexistant, there's virtually no plot, and even though Bella and Edward do take some time to supposedly get to know each other, I expect that's all going to be pummeled to dust by a Lustful aspect, because it keeps showing up. The story for the most part in my eyes is a series of chained events with no foundational plot to keep them grounded. Which made me look at the criticism I recieved on Scribophile from the first chapter of Princess Of The Damned, and ask these questions:

1. Is Constructive criticism for a writer really necessary since it appears all you need to do is write a series of well constructed, and plotless sentences that appeal to the fantasies of an ignorant target audience?

2. If constructive Criticism is necessary, and essential to a writer's potential then why is it rarely ever respected?

3. Since Twilight is such a huge hit among teens is my target audience of teenagers and young adults overcoming Life-Changing obstacles, neigh-sayers, and persecutors to achieve a life long goal practically non-existent in today's society? Because where as I mention that to be my target audience for my book in my queries, I keep getting rejected by Young Adult Fiction Agents. Maybe it's because the book is a Post Apocalyptic fiction that deals with a demon girl who kills priests... I'm not sure...

But the main question I really want answered is what am I doing wrong? What does it take to get a freaking hook in today's Literary Industry, because my approach of wanting to appeal to individuals who want to achieve something in life is getting me nowhere, except closer to becoming a starving artist living in a cardboard box, or that 40 year old nerd living in his parents' basement.

I'm not a teenager, and haven't been for thirty-eight years. I'm also not female. I am, in fact, a gun-toting redneck. I'm also a cigarette smoking, whiskey drinking, barroom brawl kind of guy with a black belt in Jeet Kune Do.

I harbor no fantasies, and I sure as hell am not ignorant. But I think Stephanie Meyer did a fantastic job with Twilight. She told a very good story, and filled that story with chracters readers empathize with. That's what it's all about. That's all it's ever about.

And that's the one thing very darned few people who try writing can ever manage to accomplish.

Now, constructive cristicism. Who does the criticism, and who is it for?

If you mean constructive criticism from critics and reviewers and literati, then, no, it is never necessary. At least until the writer is long dead, and such people can write what they wish without fear of the next bestselling book by that writer making them look silly.

What are you doing wrong? Hard to tell, except I know you aren't giving agents and editor the story they want, in the way they want it.

is my target audience of teenagers and young adults overcoming Life-Changing obstacles, neigh-sayers, and persecutors to achieve a life long goal practically non-existent in today's society?

Trust me, publishers and teens love stories that are exactly as you describe yours. Such stories have always been a staple. But you still have to tell it well, and you still have to fill it with three dimensional, empathetic characters.
 

Calla Lily

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Rasun:

I understand the frustration of form R after form R. I have more than a hundred of the little buggers in folders on my hard drive.

One way to find out why you're getting them is to post your query in the Share Your Work forum (password: vista) in Query Letter Hell. The critters there will tell you what works and what doesn't and will give you suggestions on ways to improve the Q. Be warned: read the how-to stickies first, and don't go in without Kevlar.

That being said, I've put all of my queries through QLH and they've been greatly improved thereby.

A beta reader is a fellow writer at or above your writing experience level who reads through your polished book, looking for what works/what doesn't, continuity, characterization, plot holes, etc. etc.

Both QLH and beta-ing work on a give and take basis. If you give crits, you're more likely to get crits back. I've learned a lot by critting other queries and beta-ing for fellow writers.


Now for the hard part:

I'm afraid your work isn't unique. With a little research, I could name 3 books with plots similar to yours--and 3 more with a little more research (titles are escaping me at the moment). However, plots are a dime a dozen. It's how you execute the Hero's Journey (for example) that makes your book different.

I wonder more about your underlying reason for your choice of audience. I write horror, mystery, and paranormal because they're what I like to read. I write for adults because I prefer adult books to YA.

If you really want to keep at YA, then I strongly suggest the SYW forum. The YA writers there will certainly be able to give valuable suggestions and crits. Good luck!
 

Mr Flibble

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2. While I did respect what was told to me, and did find it helpful, I have in time's past come across some who would figuretively "kick me, or anyone else in the chin" if we offered some good advice. Also there is the factor oif fans who get pissy if you criticize a story they like, I've seen that one youtube.

OH yeah, well I suspect we've all seen that. All you can do is say 'Okay'. *shrug* You can't force people to take advice, especially in something so subjective as writing.

Chin up old chap. You gotta work hard, and there'll be plenty of downs and rejections and whatnot. But when you get that first acceptance, that'll just make it all the sweeter, right? ( personally I did a lap of honour round the living room with my t-shirt over my head shouting 'Woooohooooo!':D )
 

Calla Lily

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Don't waste your time, IdiotsR. He had been banned and snuck back in without asking. Proceeded to brag about the bannination and Mac rectified the situation.

*sigh* I hate asshats. (Thank you, Captain Obvious. :tongue)