About Fantasy

Vahana · Jan 8, 2010

Hi, I am new to this forum, a norwegianer, and have several topics I would like to discuss, but starting with this: Fantasy. I have not yet finished my first novel, have been writing and rewriting the first 100 pages now, and still have a 1000 more to go. I have planned a trilogy for the past decade, and have finally started.
The question arise: It is a fantasy novel, not like Tolkien, but It takes place on the mythical continent of Atlantis. I wonder, do a fantasy novel really need a lot of magic and dragons? Mine does not. I do have a bit magic, or more a girl with supernatural powers, and a little bit of magic, and absolute no dragons. I think the possible thought of that this could really have taken place stirs enough.
I write for teens, maybe from 15 and up. I had to come up with an idea that had not been used before, and hopefully I did.
What do you think? Are magic and dragons a "must have" in this janger?

bearilou · Jan 8, 2010

Vahana said:
What do you think? Are magic and dragons a "must have" in this janger?

Welcome!

Considering I have many books here on my desk in my to-be-read pile that don't have a dragon or magic in sight, I would say that in general you don't need them to have a fantasy.

Not quite sure about the YA market though but I would think not there as well.

Have you visited the Science Fiction and Fantasy section of the board and poked around there? A lot of really good information there and in novels that I'm sure you can uncover along the way!

MGraybosch · Jan 8, 2010

Vahana said:
What do you think? Are magic and dragons a "must have" in this janger?

I don't have any magic in mine, just psionics. And the only dragon is a starship whose wings act as light sails.

Is "janger" the Norwegian equivalent of "genre"?

Cyia · Jan 8, 2010

Vahana said:
Hi, I am new to this forum, a norwegianer, and have several topics I would like to discuss, but starting with this: Fantasy. I have not yet finished my first novel, have been writing and rewriting the first 100 pages now, and still have a 1000 more to go. I have planned a trilogy for the past decade, and have finally started.

Slow down and take a look around here. You'll find some great information.

First of all, stop thinking in terms of pages. What you have to keep track of is word count. For fantasy, you'll want to hit around 120,000 to 130,000 words (as an average) for one book.

As far as the trilogy, you need to make one book first - one that isn't dependent on the other 2. Sell 1 book 1st. Pitching a trilogy can actually hurt your chances.

Vahana said:
The question arise: It is a fantasy novel, not like Tolkien, but It takes place on the mythical continent of Atlantis. I wonder, do a fantasy novel really need a lot of magic and dragons? Mine does not. I do have a bit magic, or more a girl with supernatural powers, and a little bit of magic, and absolute no dragons. I think the possible thought of that this could really have taken place stirs enough.
I write for teens, maybe from 15 and up.

That's definitely fantasy. (YA fantasy since it's for teens)

Vahana said:
I had to come up with an idea that had not been used before, and hopefully I did.
What do you think? Are magic and dragons a "must have" in this janger?

Be aware that Atlantis is a very common setting for fantasy, and that original ideas aren't as original as you think they are. You can come up with a new component of an old idea, but it's doubtful that you'll have a truly original idea.

Also, I'm assuming you mean this to be sold in an English-speaking market, possibly the US. You're going to have to work on your structure a bit. Most (almost all, in fact) of what you've written is fine, but you have a couple of "tells" that clue the reader in that English isn't your first language. Hopefully, your book is that close and an English speaking beta-reader will be able to hammer out the few inconsistencies. (Is that last word supposed to be "genre"? Like a category?)

Maxinquaye · Jan 8, 2010

Hei og velkommen til AW. Det er alltid hyggelig å finne flere fra Skandinavia her.

To your question, no there's no reason to have dragons in Fantasy. Just take a deep breath, and read a lot of threads on this site. You're going to be doing that for a while. There's a HUGE amount of knowledge here.

Cyia said:
Slow down and take a look around here. You'll find some great information.

First of all, stop thinking in terms of pages. What you have to keep track of is word count. For fantasy, you'll want to hit around 120,000 to 130,000 words (as an average) for one book.

As far as the trilogy, you need to make one book first - one that isn't dependent on the other 2. Sell 1 book 1st. Pitching a trilogy can actually hurt your chances.

That's definitely fantasy. (YA fantasy since it's for teens)

Be aware that Atlantis is a very common setting for fantasy, and that original ideas aren't as original as you think they are. You can come up with a new component of an old idea, but it's doubtful that you'll have a truly original idea.

Also, I'm assuming you mean this to be sold in an English-speaking market, possibly the US. You're going to have to work on your structure a bit. Most (almost all, in fact) of what you've written is fine, but you have a couple of "tells" that clue the reader in that English isn't your first language. Hopefully, your book is that close and an English speaking beta-reader will be able to hammer out the few inconsistencies. (Is that last word supposed to be "genre"? Like a category?)

I know you mean well, but Scandinavia has a fairly strong book publishing industry, with a particular bent for fantasy/horror, mystery and social realism. Think Henning Mankell, Jan Ajvide Lindkvist, Sjöwall-Wahlöö, and of course Stieg Larsson. There are many, many more that aren't known to an international audience - yet. Jens Lapidus is one writer that comes to mind.

Now, the languages used is not English, but much of the same advice given about English-speaking publishing is probably the same.

Vahana · Jan 8, 2010

Cyia said:
Slow down and take a look around here. You'll find some great information.

First of all, stop thinking in terms of pages. What you have to keep track of is word count. For fantasy, you'll want to hit around 120,000 to 130,000 words (as an average) for one book.

As far as the trilogy, you need to make one book first - one that isn't dependent on the other 2. Sell 1 book 1st. Pitching a trilogy can actually hurt your chances.

That's definitely fantasy. (YA fantasy since it's for teens)

Be aware that Atlantis is a very common setting for fantasy, and that original ideas aren't as original as you think they are. You can come up with a new component of an old idea, but it's doubtful that you'll have a truly original idea.

Also, I'm assuming you mean this to be sold in an English-speaking market, possibly the US. You're going to have to work on your structure a bit. Most (almost all, in fact) of what you've written is fine, but you have a couple of "tells" that clue the reader in that English isn't your first language. Hopefully, your book is that close and an English speaking beta-reader will be able to hammer out the few inconsistencies. (Is that last word supposed to be "genre"? Like a category?)

Thanks, and no, I am not going to publish the book for the English market, since my English is not that good at all.
I know that Atlantis is not unusual in the fantasy genre, but I think my ideas of the girl`s supernatural powers are, and what causes the sinking of the continent.

Vahana · Jan 8, 2010

Maxinquaye said:
Hei og velkommen til AW. Det er alltid hyggelig å finne flere fra Skandinavia her.

To your question, no there's no reason to have dragons in Fantasy. Just take a deep breath, and read a lot of threads on this site. You're going to be doing that for a while. There's a HUGE amount of knowledge here.

I know you mean well, but Scandinavia has a fairly strong book publishing industry, with a particular bent for fantasy/horror, mystery and social realism. Think Henning Mankell, Jan Ajvide Lindkvist, Sjöwall-Wahlöö, and of course Stieg Larsson. There are many, many more that aren't known to an international audience - yet. Jens Lapidus is one writer that comes to mind.

Now, the languages used is not English, but much of the same advice given about English-speaking publishing is probably the same.

Hei, kjekt å vite.

I think Scandinavia is where I can hope to sell my book, If I should be so lucky. But I am a debutant, and I do not expect a publisher to accept my book at the first try. I know there has to be a persistent will behind a good book, and I will never ever give up.
Actually, it was Stieg Larsson that gave me the last clue on how to build a good main character, and like he, I also use a young girl, even younger. But there was a lot of good advices here, thank you, to all. I will certanily take a closer look at some of them.

Maxinquaye · Jan 8, 2010

I'm swedish, though I live in England, so I can't really say about the norwegian market, but the publishing houses are cross owned anyway to the left and right. Writing novels is hard in any language, but this is a very good site for learning how.

Start over in the Novels section and read Uncle Jim's writing school. Skip the stuff about agents. It's not applicable since agents are very rare, and are frowned upon afaik in Scandinavia. But the Uncle Jim threads are an excellent starting point.

gothicangel · Jan 8, 2010

Vahana said:
Thanks, and no, I am not going to publish the book for the English market, since my English is not that good at all.
I know that Atlantis is not unusual in the fantasy genre, but I think my ideas of the girl`s supernatural powers are, and what causes the sinking of the continent.

Blimey! From your posts I would say you speak better English that 90% than the British population

Libbie · Jan 8, 2010

Hi, Vahana. Welcome!

I wanted to give you a bit of friendly advice...stop editing your first 100 pages. Don't worry about perfecting any part of your novel until it's done. Write, write, write...keep going until you've finished a complete first draft. Then worry about fixing it up. You'll get done much faster that way. You've already taken a decade to get this far, right? Don't delay yourself any more!

Dave.C.Robinson · Jan 8, 2010

Hi Vahana.

Jumping in on the definition of fantasy, in many ways it's more about how you write the book than exactly what's in it. Having said that, I generally go with the idea that if the book contains one impossible thing it's fantasy.

Vahana · Jan 9, 2010

Libbie said:
Hi, Vahana. Welcome!

I wanted to give you a bit of friendly advice...stop editing your first 100 pages. Don't worry about perfecting any part of your novel until it's done. Write, write, write...keep going until you've finished a complete first draft. Then worry about fixing it up. You'll get done much faster that way. You've already taken a decade to get this far, right? Don't delay yourself any more!

Thank you so mucy for taking the time to give me advices. I just did that in order to discover my weaker sides. I found out a lot of myself just doing that. And I really think It has made me a better writer. I have written a lot of novels before, but this is my first one that is written from the bottom of my heart. This is why I live. I have planned a trilogy, it is all a long story, and book 1 and 2 does not have cloesure. The princess I write about did have a long journey, and she ended up in the coastel areas of USA, of what today is New York.
My plan is so not norwegian, because here it is not allowed to believe in greatness. I have actually planned for over 10 books ( I have had 18 years of planning), but I know it takes a lot of extremely hard work to get it done. And thats where I am now. Working my ass off. Little sleep, a LOT of typing.
Anyway, I am not rewriting any longer, I am going to finish the first book before doing any more rewriting. I am following a hard schedule, and they want me to be done in March. It is really not impossible, but it requires all I can give.

MGraybosch · Jan 9, 2010

Vahana said:
My plan is so not norwegian, because here it is not allowed to believe in greatness.

What's the deal with that, if you don't mind me asking?

Maxinquaye · Jan 9, 2010

Scandinavians are obsessed with equality. That has some good effects; there are no lords and ladies. It also has some bad effects - if you're bright, odd, arty you're going to have to fight for your right to be bright, odd, arty. The perfect scandinavian is someone that is so enmeshed in his community that he's almost a non-individual.

OctoberLee · Jan 9, 2010

An "undividual"? Sorry I couldn't help myself when the opportunity arose to make up a cheesy new word

I found this thread really interesting... I always wonder how the publishing industry differs in other countries. Best of luck, Vahana!

Maxinquaye · Jan 9, 2010

I posted this the other day on another board here, but this is important if you want to understand scandinavians.

Of course, it's not black and white. You can shine, if you shine in football or industry. If you're arty, or much more clever than your surroundings, they'll try to bring you down to the average level. After all, it's not fair to less bright students if you get more resources in school than they do, is it?

MGraybosch · Jan 9, 2010

Maxinquaye said:
The perfect scandinavian is someone that is so enmeshed in his community that he's almost a non-individual.

Looks I wouldn't fit in in Scandinavia; I have nothing resembling a sense of community. :evil

MGraybosch · Jan 9, 2010

Maxinquaye said:
After all, it's not fair to less bright students if you get more resources in school than they do, is it?

I'd say it is. If you have a student who possesses potential, but you don't have the time or resources to help that student develop his potential, then maybe you should pass that student onto somebody else or turn him loose. It's not fair to the brighter students to shackle them in the name of "equality".

(That word, by the way, makes me stabbier than Hugo Stiglitz in a basement full of Nazis. It can be used to justify so many injustices against individuals.)

Maxinquaye · Jan 9, 2010

MGraybosch said:
I'd say it is. If you have a student who possesses potential, but you don't have the time or resources to help that student develop his potential, then maybe you should pass that student onto somebody else or turn him loose. It's not fair to the brighter students to shackle them in the name of "equality".

(That word, by the way, makes me stabbier than Hugo Stiglitz in a basement full of Nazis. It can be used to justify so many injustices against individuals.)

I totally agree, but that's a line of reasoning you'll hear in Scandinavia. It's not fair to help the bright students because life is a zero-sum game, and if someone gains someone else must lose.

MGraybosch · Jan 9, 2010

Maxinquaye said:
It's not fair to help the bright students because life is a zero-sum game, and if someone gains someone else must lose.

If that's the case, then my attitude is "better you than me" and "Screw you. I'm gonna go get mine."

Chasing the Horizon · Jan 9, 2010

MGraybosch said:
If that's the case, then my attitude is "better you than me" and "Screw you. I'm gonna go get mine."

Very American of you.

To answer the OP, there are no requirements at all for writing a fantasy novel, other than that it have some fantastic element. There doesn't have to even be any magic if it takes place in an imaginary setting.

**Note that I know nothing about publishing in countries other than America, so the following may or may not apply to you**

You can sell a series where the first book doesn't have a conclusion, but it's much more difficult for a first-time author than selling a book that can stand on its own.

Someone else posted on this thread that you should have a word count of at least 120k for fantasy, but my understanding from the guidelines on the websites of major agents and publishers is that you can go as low as 90k (with the upper limit being around 130k).

Good luck with your books.

kaigal · Jan 9, 2010

For me, a fantasy novel isn't defined by the magic and the dragons, or lack thereof, but of the fact that it is a different world or place in time. Atlantis isn't something we know much of anything really about, making it more of a myth or legend, which in turn, makes for a great fantasy novel. Fantasy and SciFi are essentially the same, but with one big difference; SciFi's have advanced technology and ususal, not always, happen on a different planet. However, not all SciFi's need aliens or robots to make them SciFi, just as long as there is advanced technology. So as far as I'm concerned, what you are writing is fantasy - and screw anyone who tells you different. :snoopy:

About Fantasy

DenturePunk writer

Lunch Break Novelist

Rewriting My Destiny

That cheeky buggerer

That cheeky buggerer

Toughen up.

Worst song played on ugliest guitar

... with the High Command

Lunch Break Novelist

That cheeky buggerer

Destroying something beautiful

That cheeky buggerer

Lunch Break Novelist

Lunch Break Novelist

That cheeky buggerer

Lunch Break Novelist

Blowing in the Wind

Creator Of Her Own Worlds