subjunctive mood

Elijah Sydney · Jan 7, 2010

I was wondering what people think of the subjunctive mood with verbs (as in “If I were you, I wouldn’t use it.”). I’m not particularly good when it comes to grammar, and I’ve found I use it inconsistently, depending on how the sentence sounds in my head at the time, which I’m not so sure is the best way to go about things. But if I don’t use it at all, some sentences don’t sound right.

What I was wondering was, do you think it’s all right to vary it in different situations? As in use “I spoke to her as if she was a child” in one instance, and then say “If I were you” in another. Would that be too inconsistent? Or should I just abandon it all together? Is that all right in popular fiction? The other choice, of course, is to make the effort of learning grammar… but… well… if I didn’t have too…

Any thoughts?

Witch_turtle · Jan 7, 2010

I think if you want to be a writer, you have to learn grammar...

Actually, I think if you speak the English language, you have to learn grammar. I think if you speak any language you have to learn the grammar. It's so important to be literate.

But it's a constant growth. I don't claim to understand everything about grammar. The were/was thing trips me up all the time, and lay/lie/laid are so far completely elusive to me, sadly. But I always try to learn, and better my understanding.

As for how you're using grammar, I would say at the very least stay consistent.

Layla Nahar · Jan 7, 2010

Ooh - I like the subjunctive mood. I wish it were more obvious in English.

as to your question: do you think it’s all right to vary it in different situations?

I would say it depends on what you're writing. If it's fiction I would say use it according to what your character would say. There are definitely people who use it, and it would make a nice identifying character trait

Dawnstorm · Jan 7, 2010

Elijah Sydney said:
What I was wondering was, do you think it’s all right to vary it in different situations? As in use “I spoke to her as if she was a child” in one instance, and then say “If I were you” in another. Would that be too inconsistent? Or should I just abandon it all together? Is that all right in popular fiction? The other choice, of course, is to make the effort of learning grammar… but… well… if I didn’t have too…

Trust your intuition. Personally, I'd use the subjunctive in formal situations, or for emphasis. "If I were you," is a special case; it's (almost?) an idiomatic expression. It comes to me as a unit.

So what about the present subjunctive?

I demanded that he give me chocalate, but he laughed at me instead.

I quite like that one, too, but it's even rarer these days than the past subjunctive.

Exir · Jan 7, 2010

http://www.englishpage.com/minitutorials/subjunctive.html

Google is your friend

Georganna Hancock · Jan 7, 2010

I think you're asking about the conditional verb tense. It's far more important that you use it correctly than that you use it. You can usually get by without such constructions, but one "if I was ... " can spoil your writing.

Here's a funny page that discusses conditional tenses and subjunctive moods:
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/conditional.htm

Jamesaritchie · Jan 8, 2010

I think that if you want a character to sound reasonably intelligent, you should use subjunctive mood correctly. If you want a character to sound not so bright, not so literate, you should not use subjunctive mood.

Dialogue is one thing, narrative is quite another. The narrative reflects on the writer, not the character, and if you get subjunctive mood wrong the the narrative, readers put you down as beling illiterate. As a writer, you have to get this one correct.

And as a writer, you do have to take the time and put in the effort to learn grammar. Grammar is writing.

PeterL · Jan 8, 2010

The subjunctive is good and useful. If you use it where it belongs, then you writing will make more sense. And Jamesritchie is right.

Claudia Gray · Jan 8, 2010

I use the subjunctive unless it's the dialogue of a person I think would be unlikely to catch it, which sadly, these days, is a lot of people.

backslashbaby · Jan 8, 2010

I love hearing people use subjunctive. Surely it still sounds right to people who don't use it themselves? I hope so.

Elijah Sydney · Jan 8, 2010

Thanks everyone for your replies here; you have all been remarkably helpful. I think, democratically looking at what’s been said, I should make a little more effort to learn the rules surrounding this. At least then, if I don’t use it, it will be a conscious decision not to.

Jamesaritchie said:
I think that if you want a character to sound reasonably intelligent, you should use subjunctive mood correctly.

That’s a very good point. I can’t have my most intelligent characters brought down by my own limitations.

Jamesaritchie said:
And as a writer, you do have to take the time and put in the effort to learn grammar. Grammar is writing.

You sound like my dad. Now I feel like throwing a tantrum. :rant:

Juliette Wade · Jan 9, 2010

To reassure you, let me comment briefly on grammar from the linguist's perspective. The reason people should know grammar well, to my mind, is not so they can be well behaved (which is how it's often put), but so they can use it to maximum effect. Grammar is a tool we use, and when you know it well, it can do all sorts of things. One of those things is convey character through its usage - either in dialogue, OR in internal pov narrative (first person, or third person internal). Grammar should be working for you, not the other way around.

Maryn · Jan 9, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
I think that if you want a character to sound reasonably intelligent, you should use subjunctive mood correctly. If you want a character to sound not so bright, not so literate, you should not use subjunctive mood.

I don't belive that this is true. In my own experience, a great many highly educated, intelligent people never, ever use subjunctive in speech, only in writing or formal speeches or lectures. They prefer their speech with the casual tone of the non-subjunctive, eschewing the more formal sound of the subjunctive.

Those whose education is in the hard sciences rather than the humanities may not even know subjunctive exists, much less its proper use.

A language in use is a language in flux. I suspect in a hundred years, subjunctive may be quaint and old-fashioned, in two hundred, archaic, essentially gone from everyday discourse.

Maryn, who's hobnobbed with the uber-educated many times (and passed, woo-hoo)

Jamesaritchie · Jan 11, 2010

Maryn said:
I don't belive that this is true. In my own experience, a great many highly educated, intelligent people never, ever use subjunctive in speech, only in writing or formal speeches or lectures. They prefer their speech with the casual tone of the non-subjunctive, eschewing the more formal sound of the subjunctive.

Those whose education is in the hard sciences rather than the humanities may not even know subjunctive exists, much less its proper use.

A language in use is a language in flux. I suspect in a hundred years, subjunctive may be quaint and old-fashioned, in two hundred, archaic, essentially gone from everyday discourse.

Maryn, who's hobnobbed with the uber-educated many times (and passed, woo-hoo)

We know very different educated people. I have no idea what language will be like in a hundred years, but right now anyone who doesn't use subjunctive mood sounds illiterate, whether they are or not. And they probably are. Having twelve science degrees does not make a person literate.

bonitakale · Jan 11, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
We know very different educated people. I have no idea what language will be like in a hundred years, but right now anyone who doesn't use subjunctive mood sounds illiterate, whether they are or not. And they probably are. Having twelve science degrees does not make a person literate.

I wish I were taller.
If he were any dumber...

And that's about it. It's not as if the subjunctive comes up all the time. And even with those, you hear people (not illiterates) saying, "If the President was here right now..." I don't think we even notice it. I don't think we notice when we do it ourselves.

Susan Lanigan · Jan 22, 2010

I've just written a very long subjunctive clause in a story I'm writing:

...as if she were terrified that should she stop talking for one minute, I might turn on my heel and head back on the next flight to LaGuardia.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 23, 2010

bonitakale said:
I wish I were taller.
If he were any dumber...

And that's about it. It's not as if the subjunctive comes up all the time. And even with those, you hear people (not illiterates) saying, "If the President was here right now..." I don't think we even notice it. I don't think we notice when we do it ourselves.

You may hear it all the time, I do not. At least not from intelligent, literate people. I always notice it, and I suspect the vast majority of educated people out there notice it, as well.

Libbie · Jan 23, 2010

I am technically uneducated, and I notice it. I'm with James here. This might be one of those parts of language that does change with time, but for now, "were" is still correct.

bonitakale · Jan 23, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
You may hear it all the time, I do not. At least not from intelligent, literate people. I always notice it, and I suspect the vast majority of educated people out there notice it, as well.

You may be right.

I know, however, a man who often says "Me and soandso did something," and will swear up and down that he never does it. I don't think we know what we do. Language changes through such unconscious alterations in individual speech.

But, as I say, you may be right.

Layla Nahar · Feb 6, 2010

Dawnstorm said:
So what about the present subjunctive?

I demanded that he give me chocalate, but he laughed at me instead.
I quite like that one, too, but it's even rarer these days than the past subjunctive.

Today I found an example of a place where I think the subjunctive should have been used. this is from accuweather.com

It is not out of the question that the storm next week develops into another blizzard.

I think it should correctly say:
It is not out of the question that the storm next week develop into another blizzard.

I've seen "God rest ye merry" given as an example of the subjunctive used as an kind of imperative directed at the 3rd person (vs the usual imperative directed at the 2nd person)

In both the accuweather example & Dawnstar's example the subjunctive is in a clause connected by the word "that" - but the "God rest ye merry" doesn't. hmm wonder if there is a missing 'that' and with the God example? like, 'I pray that God rest ye merry'. Just wondering.

kuwisdelu · Feb 6, 2010

I notice incorrect use of it.

It bothers me, unless the character is supposed to sound less literate.

Maryn · Feb 7, 2010

I notice its incorrect use, too--but nevertheless, I'm saying that highly educated people in both hard sciences and in the arts, including PhDs in various humanities, prefer their conversational tone to be more casual and do not use subjunctives routinely. For many, it's a conscious decision to err, not unlike my choice to say, "It's me" rather than the correct "It is I."

While a character's speech can be as formal, and as correct, as we choose to make it, not every educated character is honor-bound to use subjunctive correctly in dialogue or narrative voice.

Maryn, as it were

Lady Ice · Feb 7, 2010

Elijah Sydney said:
I was wondering what people think of the subjunctive mood with verbs (as in “If I were you, I wouldn’t use it.”). I’m not particularly good when it comes to grammar, and I’ve found I use it inconsistently, depending on how the sentence sounds in my head at the time, which I’m not so sure is the best way to go about things. But if I don’t use it at all, some sentences don’t sound right.

What I was wondering was, do you think it’s all right to vary it in different situations? As in use “I spoke to her as if she was a child” in one instance, and then say “If I were you” in another. Would that be too inconsistent? Or should I just abandon it all together? Is that all right in popular fiction? The other choice, of course, is to make the effort of learning grammar… but… well… if I didn’t have too…

Any thoughts?

'as if she was a child' is just another way of phrasing a simile. You could easily have phrased it 'like she was a child'.

DennisB · Feb 7, 2010

For goodness sake!
If it's a character, let them say anything they want, good or bad. It's probably wise to keep it consistent, though.

The Accuweather example probably has more to do with "media-speak."
This is being written six hours before the Super Bowl, and I'll predict that the announcers will say "he can't make the catch," "he doesn't get the first down," or something similar at least 20 times.

Layla Nahar · Feb 7, 2010

Maryn said:
...highly educated people in both hard sciences and in the arts, including PhDs in various humanities, prefer their conversational tone to be more casual and do not use subjunctives routinely. For many, it's a conscious decision to err, not unlike my choice to say, "It's me" rather than the correct "It is I."

IMHO - if you are writing informatively for public consumption, it is good to hold yourself to a higher standard. If any are making a choice to sound ignorant, I wish they would stop. I'll bet that this writer was unaware of the correct use of 'develop' in this situation.

Do you think it is possible to sound casual and to be grammatically correct? I think it is. For sure I've seen people trying to sound formal, and being grammatically incorrect - more than the former, I'd say!

subjunctive mood

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hanging around for a spell

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