What do you do, when there are two good starting points for your book?

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

If you have a starting point for your book that makes perfectly good sense, but leaves the reader with no attachment to one of the characters, which means that their death means less, but keeps the book at 75,000 words (before editing)....

How would you compare that to a different version of the book, that has an additional 20-25,000 words, but establishes the character who dies and potentially increases the potency of the death? Thus making the book 90,000-100,000 words before editing?

Is shorter always better?

I guess it depends on the purpose of the book, right? Epic vs Confined?

DeleyanLee · Jan 7, 2010

Flip a coin: Heads=shorter.

Look at the result. How do you feel, in your gut, about the result.

How you feel, in your gut, is your real answer.

This always cuts through the BS for me and gets me to the root of what I really want.

bearilou · Jan 7, 2010

lucidzfl said:
If you have a starting point for your book that makes perfectly good sense, but leaves the reader with no attachment to one of the characters, which means that their death means less, but keeps the book at 75,000 words (before editing)....

How would you compare that to a different version of the book, that has an additional 20-25,000 words, but establishes the character who dies and potentially increases the potency of the death? Thus making the book 90,000-100,000 words before editing?

Is shorter always better?

I guess it depends on the purpose of the book, right? Epic vs Confined?

Hmmm...I would think in terms of the death and how it impacts the MC. Just a question (or two), why would the character's death need to impact the reader so acutely that they would need the build up? Is it necessary to understand the impact it then has on the MC?

This is a tough call. I could make arguments for either decision. *dithers and isn't much help*

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 7, 2010

lucidzfl said:
If you have a starting point for your book that makes perfectly good sense, but leaves the reader with no attachment to one of the characters, which means that their death means less, but keeps the book at 75,000 words (before editing)....

Is it the MC? Because if I have no attachment to the MC, I won't even finish the book.

Fredster · Jan 7, 2010

Shorter isn't always better, I think.

If the longer version creates more of a connection with the character, I'd make it longer.

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

bearilou said:
Hmmm...I would think in terms of the death and how it impacts the MC. Just a question (or two), why would the character's death need to impact the reader so acutely that they would need the build up? Is it necessary to understand the impact it then has on the MC?

This is a tough call. I could make arguments for either decision. *dithers and isn't much help*

Here's the dealio. I've already written all of it. Originally I wrote 40,000 words about the time immediately following the apocalypse and dealing with my MC and his wife's escape from Florida to Tennessee. Its a great starting point because it begins with the bombs falling, etc. Definitely right in the middle of the action.

At the end of it, his wife is killed, and he originally sort of went insane and just gave up on life. At this point, I decided that his insanity was the story, so I threw away the preceeding 40,000 words and started the book there.

Halfway through the "new" book, I realized I wanted to ditch the insanity angle and turn it into a vengance thing. 2/3ds of the way, I decided to turn it into a mystery, lol. Eventually my MC finds his wife alive, and has only 12 hours with her, before he himself is killed. In the epilogue, we're expected to assume that his wife is going to continue on in his footsteps, but because she has had 0 character development in the "new" book, its hard to ask the reader to swallow that.

Now I'm wondering, should I pare down the 40,000 word original story to about 25,000 and increase the pace, and then pare down the 75,000 I have as well, and combine them so that she gets some development.

I'm so screwed! lol

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

Shadow_Ferret said:
Is it the MC? Because if I have no attachment to the MC, I won't even finish the book.

Oh OF course it is! Its my MC through throughout the entire book. See my explanation above.

job · Jan 7, 2010

Perhaps you could approach this question as if you had a short, complete manuscript written without the wife, and you were asking -- should I add a 25K subplot to this story?

Looking at that question, you'd say -- what purpose does the subplot serve?

We write every scene to tell story. Every scene advances the action of the story. We do not write scenes to convey information or to delineate character -- though they may do this, of course.

Is the 25K 'wife subplot' in there to make her death feel important?
You can make her important through the MC's feelings. He cares, so we care.

Is the 25K subplot to establish that this woman is capable of seeking vengeance?
Make her an FBI agent or a Marine sergeant.

You're looking here, basically, at whether this is a better story with the 25K
or without.
What is the core story? How is the plot shaped and structured to tell it? Does the subplot serve the action of the core story?

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

job said:
You don't need 25K words to make a character 'feel' important. You can make the reader care about a character with a few dozen words.

And you've got the MC there with all his feelings about her. Our feelings about the MC make his wife real. He cares, so we care.

You also don't need 25K words to establish the authenticity of what is essentially an epilog. If you want to convince the reader that this woman is capable of being a competent vengeance seeker, make her an FBI agent or a Marine sargeant.

The basic story-telling point is that you don't write 25K to 'provide information' or to 'develop a character.' You don't write a single scene for such purposes.

You write every scene to tell story.

Is is a better story with this 25K? Have you wandered away from your core story?
The fact that you can cut the whole subplot out argues that this is not really part of the tale you're telling.

So this is an interesting debate.

How do you know when the right point to tell the story is?

In the Epilogue, the man's wife essentially takes over his mantle and continues in his footsteps. One could argue that the book could start there instead. (Although if they did I would kill them)

The story is what I need to decide upon.

Is the story:

1. About my MC's journey from mild mannered executive with a happy housewife, to a broken husband, to a force of vengeance, to an unlikely hero and savior?
(95000 word version)

or

2. About the descent into madness of a man who discovered his wifes death, and in the course of the pursuit of vengeance becomes a symbol for something greater.
(70000 word version)

The extra 25K isn't just about establishing the wife's character, it also shows my MC before he was .. off. As of the start of the current revision, he's already killed men, and is already slightly imbalanced. If I started 25K earlier, we would see the entire progression.

Basically, the same story can be told in two ways, and the extra merely defines the point of the book.

ChaosTitan · Jan 7, 2010

lucidzfl said:
2. About the descent into madness of a man who discovered his wifes death, and in the course of the pursuit of vengeance becomes a symbol for something greater.
(70000 word version)

If this is your story, aren't you undermining it by the Epilogue in which the wife isn't actually dead?

Libbie · Jan 7, 2010

No, shorter is not always better. And I would personally always go for more emotional attachment to doomed characters, but that's because my writing tends to be kind of dark.

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

ChaosTitan said:
If this is your story, aren't you undermining it by the Epilogue in which the wife isn't actually dead?

The wife's lack of death status is established about 60 pages before the end of the book and the epilogue.

willietheshakes · Jan 7, 2010

Have you considered a Prologue?

(That, for the record, was ENTIRELY tongue-in-cheek.)

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

willietheshakes said:
Have you considered a Prologue?

(That, for the record, was ENTIRELY tongue-in-cheek.)

I am going to hunt you down and ensure that you can never make babies you asshole.

lol

willietheshakes · Jan 7, 2010

lucidzfl said:
I am going to hunt you down and ensure that you can never make babies you asshole.

lol

Too late!

I have to say, though, that having dealt with the ending and the beginning, I'm eagerly awaiting your thread about the middle.

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

willietheshakes said:
Too late!

I have to say, though, that having dealt with the ending and the beginning, I'm eagerly awaiting your thread about the middle.

LOL. The middle is plain shite. No need to start a thread about it.

And fwiw. In total, I've written about 110,000 words on this. I tossed away the first 40+K of it and am now up to about 64000 or 65000 words. So I'm coming to the end.

As I've gotten to the end, the story took on a different slant, and I almost feel like I'd be better served cutting some of the fat from the middle and including the beginning that was cut before.

JESUS

willietheshakes · Jan 7, 2010

Can I make an actual suggestion?

Write it. Get the first draft down before you start worrying overly about structure and revision and chopping this and re-inserting that. Get the whole thing down, then look at it as a whole.

My two cents (CDN).

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

willietheshakes said:
Can I make an actual suggestion?

Write it. Get the first draft down before you start worrying overly about structure and revision and chopping this and re-inserting that. Get the whole thing down, then look at it as a whole.

My two cents (CDN).

I only have four more scenes to write. I'll have the entirety of it done this weekend. For all its worth, its at the "whole stage".

Once I write the last word, sometime saturday, it'll be around 122,000 words.

Thats why I'm looking at the chopping and what not. I only asked about the ending because I kind of needed to know how to structure the very last chapter. Everything leading up to say, the last 500 words or so is set in stone

CEtchison · Jan 7, 2010

Then I would finish it, piece together two separate stories (as you described), read each of them from beginning to end and decide which you like better. If you still can't decide, flip a coin.

If you argue with the coin results and start making excuses for the losing version, your gut is telling you the winner.

ChaosTitan · Jan 7, 2010

lucidzfl said:
The wife's lack of death status is established about 60 pages before the end of the book and the epilogue.

Okay, but that doesn't really answer my question. If the entire book is this MC's vengeance quest, driven by the death of his wife, won't his entire journey seem...diminished by the fact that she's actually alive and well?*

Think of it this way--in Star Wars, Luke's quest to become a Jedi is put into motion by the murder of his aunt and uncle. What would the audience reaction have been if, by the end of Return of the Jedi and Luke's journey, we discovered Owen and Beru were actually alive?

*Of course, depending on the writer's skill, perhaps not? Just food for thought.

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

ChaosTitan said:
Okay, but that doesn't really answer my question. If the entire book is this MC's vengeance quest, driven by the death of his wife, won't his entire journey seem...diminished by the fact that she's actually alive and well?*

Think of it this way--in Star Wars, Luke's quest to become a Jedi is put into motion by the murder of his aunt and uncle. What would the audience reaction have been if, by the end of Return of the Jedi and Luke's journey, we discovered Owen and Beru were actually alive?

*Of course, depending on the writer's skill, perhaps not? Just food for thought.

Hey. I appreciate you digging into the meat and potatoes of the story.

I am attempting to be brief with the summaries I'm providing here. About halfway (a bit earlier) in the story, my MC realizes he's chasing a ghost trying to find the exact killer of his wife. He realizes that the people who killed his wife are responsible for much bigger and worse problems related to the apocalypse. After he's enslaved in a camp and bought by these very people he decides to transition his quest for vengeance into discovering the true nature of the religious cult itself. Basically he needs some purpose to keep going, and deep down he knew that vengeance wouldn't solve anything anyway. He meets some children along the way, and some others he develops feelings and hope for. So the "find his wife", "avenge his wife" subplot is transitioned probably 20 thousand words or so before he finds out she's alive. Thats another shocker, because the reader won't have been thinking about her by the time she shows up.

Like many of our stories, Lots of shit happens in it, and rather than write detailed synopsis I try and keep it simple when asking for advice

Kitty Pryde · Jan 7, 2010

If you need to have us attached to the wife as a character, have you considered trying...dun dun dun...flashbacks? A homicidal nutcase roaming the postapocalyptic countryside seeking vengeance is a pretty decent setup to use flashbacks well.

lucidzfl · Jan 7, 2010

Kitty Pryde said:
If you need to have us attached to the wife as a character, have you considered trying...dun dun dun...flashbacks? A homicidal nutcase roaming the postapocalyptic countryside seeking vengeance is a pretty decent setup to use flashbacks well.

Honestly, I hadn't. I think its because I don't know how to write one. Its definitely not a bad idea...

Grand_Maester · Jan 7, 2010

I know this works in movies and such, not as sure about it in books though... but perhaps you could take this angle:

Your novel starts with the bombs dropping, lots of fun, lots of energy. Wife dies, MC goes into a comatose state and maintains, at least for a little while, the insanity thing. During this period he frequently has flashbacks to life before his wife died: important events from all throughout their relationship. He continues his journey to whatever plagued by thoughts and dreams of his life before and his life now, which could understandably drive him to want it back. Which, seeing that as impossible, would drive him to want to destroy the forces that caused this to happen to him. Yay vengeance.
So, now you can develop the wife, put insanity AND vengeance into the story, and start in the middle of a war.
Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too?

Course, I don't really know a ton about your book, so you'd have to format this idea to suit yourself. But this is what I would do.

EDIT: I swear I started typing this before KittyPryde posted.

NicoleMD · Jan 7, 2010

Kitty Pryde said:
If you need to have us attached to the wife as a character, have you considered trying...dun dun dun...flashbacks? A homicidal nutcase roaming the postapocalyptic countryside seeking vengeance is a pretty decent setup to use flashbacks well.

Yeah, you might try work it in as flashbacks or backstory througout the story. Chose a handful of your most resonant scenes from the 25k and weave them in. You might end up adding closer to just 10-15k, I bet.

Nicole

What do you do, when there are two good starting points for your book?

Back from the dead

Writing Anarchist

DenturePunk writer

Court Jester

Village idiot

Back from the dead

Back from the dead

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Back from the dead

Around

Worst song played on ugliest guitar

Back from the dead

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

Back from the dead

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

Back from the dead

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

Back from the dead

Around

Back from the dead

i luv you giant bear statue

Back from the dead

Onomatopotamus