POV Change at the end of a book

lucidzfl · Jan 4, 2010

I've seen some people ask similar questions about this and I figure I'll regurgitate it myself...

Is it horribly taboo to switch POV to another character at 70,000 words into a book (Out of 75,000) because the MC dies?

The other character is incredibly important, but its a woman who hasn't been there for the entire book, though she's been discussed quite a bit.

I have done 0 head hopping the entire book, not a single other POV has been spoken from.

I "want" this to be jarring. I want the fact that the reader has come accustomed to this one character and they're dead all of the sudden, is supposed to rock the world.

I know this sounds like a bad short story exercise but I was sitting here thinking about it and I was like "what if" and then all the sudden I got really excited.

PS: I'm at word 62,000 so I'm pretty close to the end now.

evol_reed · Jan 4, 2010

Why not go ahead and try it and see how it reads? If that's what you really want to do I'd give it a go. You should know after a few chapters if it's going to seriously interrupt the flow of the story.

bclement412 · Jan 4, 2010

I just read Fallen by Lauren Kate (which I hated

) but at the first and last chapter were written from different points of view (that's not why I hated it though

). I agree with evol, just write it and see whether or not you like it or not. It's an interesting idea, so good luck with it!

Terie · Jan 4, 2010

In general, I'd say don't do it, but it sounds like your setup might be an exception. Try it, as the others have said, and see what happens. The worst that can happen is that you'll have to rewrite your ending.

Kitty Pryde · Jan 4, 2010

Does the reader care about this other character? Once your MC dies, does the reader want to know anything more about your story? If our interest encompasses the new narrator's POV, it seems okay. "All Quiet On The Western Front" changes narrators on the last page, but only to wrap up loose ends.

lucidzfl · Jan 4, 2010

Thanks for the responses guys. The book is about the concept, or the character of a Telamon. An avenger. The thing I want people to realize when they read this, is that the idea at its core, is not about a man, its about how an idea can change the world. When this man who we've been reading about for 70K words dies, his wife takes his place, because its the idea that makes the difference, not the man.

And it is going to be very jarring, I know that. I HOPE the reader understands the intent. I could write every book about a different person who represented the ideal of the character, and in a way, its the MC's sacrifice that solidifies the necessity of that ideal in this society.

I just hope that the reader doesn't pitch the book across the room.

Albannach · Jan 4, 2010

Well, the problem is that people tend to care about people. That's not to say it couldn't possibly work but if you're saying something like: "care about the concept of justice and to hell with the people invoved" you may have a problem.

The problem with the "write it and see if it works" is that often we're the worst possible judges of whether what we write works or not. But you might try it and see what betas think of it and how that matches your own reaction.

Kitty Pryde · Jan 4, 2010

What albannach said. People aren't following "an idea that makes a difference", they're following a character doing interesting stuff. You can jar the reader all you want, or not, but will they be interested in the thread of the plot after someone else picks it up is the question.

lucidzfl · Jan 5, 2010

Kitty Pryde said:
What albannach said. People aren't following "an idea that makes a difference", they're following a character doing interesting stuff. You can jar the reader all you want, or not, but will they be interested in the thread of the plot after someone else picks it up is the question.

I see what you guys are saying. Its not about that.

Think of it in terms of saving private ryan. The whole movie you go through with Tom Hanks character trying to rescue this person. In the end, he succeeds, but dies in the process.

In this instance, my MC is looking for his wife ,and along the way a legend forms around his exploits. At the end of the book, he dies. And his wife decides to take on in his footsteps, because the idea of him was too important to let die.

Make more sense?

Kitty Pryde · Jan 5, 2010

lucidzfl said:
I see what you guys are saying. Its not about that.

Think of it in terms of saving private ryan. The whole movie you go through with Tom Hanks character trying to rescue this person. In the end, he succeeds, but dies in the process.

In this instance, my MC is looking for his wife ,and along the way a legend forms around his exploits. At the end of the book, he dies. And his wife decides to take on in his footsteps, because the idea of him was too important to let die.

Make more sense?

I get what you're trying to do. But my question is the same: is the reader following the character, or is the reader following the 'concept of an avenger'? What about your story keeps them reading? When you kill him off, will it still be interesting for one more chapter? In contrast, for me, I tend to write extremely MC-focused stories that would never work once the MC dropped dead. I'm thinking of a well-known book about a soldier--he dies on the penultimate page and the book switches from 1st to 3rd omni POV--it's done mainly to make a point of the fact that it doesn't matter to the world at all that the guy has died in the war. It's only one page, though!

Other people write an ensemble of characters, or stories where the shared objective is more interesting than the particular POV, stories that are more amenable to killing off the narrator.

lucidzfl · Jan 5, 2010

Kitty Pryde said:
I get what you're trying to do. But my question is the same: is the reader following the character, or is the reader following the 'concept of an avenger'? What about your story keeps them reading? When you kill him off, will it still be interesting for one more chapter? In contrast, for me, I tend to write extremely MC-focused stories that would never work once the MC dropped dead. I'm thinking of a well-known book about a soldier--he dies on the penultimate page and the book switches from 1st to 3rd omni POV--it's done mainly to make a point of the fact that it doesn't matter to the world at all that the guy has died in the war. It's only one page, though!

Other people write an ensemble of characters, or stories where the shared objective is more interesting than the particular POV, stories that are more amenable to killing off the narrator.

Well, if I were to ever write a sequel/sidequel, then it would be following the concept of the avenger.

As to this story, standalone, and as is, its all about mitch, and (as a reader) knowing that his legacy will live on and that he didn't die in vain.

Btw, he dies around 5000 words before the last page also.

Lady Ice · Jan 5, 2010

lucidzfl said:
Thanks for the responses guys. The book is about the concept, or the character of a Telamon. An avenger. The thing I want people to realize when they read this, is that the idea at its core, is not about a man, its about how an idea can change the world. When this man who we've been reading about for 70K words dies, his wife takes his place, because its the idea that makes the difference, not the man.

And it is going to be very jarring, I know that. I HOPE the reader understands the intent. I could write every book about a different person who represented the ideal of the character, and in a way, its the MC's sacrifice that solidifies the necessity of that ideal in this society.

I just hope that the reader doesn't pitch the book across the room.

You have a lot of focus and a clear point to your novel- two things that loads of writers don't have and that are admirable.

The bad news is that...how long is 70,000 words? It sounds like a long time for us to be with the character, only to have him killed off and replaced just before the end.

You could perhaps kill him off quite early if it's the concept of the avenger as opposed to the character that matters. Then you could explore the aftermath. Or you could do it retrospectively and weave his experience in- it would still be central to the novel but it allows the reader to understand the message.

This new POV character- is she a concept or a person we are supposed to empathise with? If the latter, that'll be a difficult task, seeing as we'll have 'grown up' with the MC. Perhaps an epilogue or a short chapter at the end would be the best way of emphasising the character's symbolism.

lucidzfl · Jan 5, 2010

Lady Ice said:
You have a lot of focus and a clear point to your novel- two things that loads of writers don't have and that are admirable.

The bad news is that...how long is 70,000 words? It sounds like a long time for us to be with the character, only to have him killed off and replaced just before the end.

You could perhaps kill him off quite early if it's the concept of the avenger as opposed to the character that matters. Then you could explore the aftermath. Or you could do it retrospectively and weave his experience in- it would still be central to the novel but it allows the reader to understand the message.

This new POV character- is she a concept or a person we are supposed to empathise with? If the latter, that'll be a difficult task, seeing as we'll have 'grown up' with the MC. Perhaps an epilogue or a short chapter at the end would be the best way of emphasising the character's symbolism.

Yeah, I tried to clarify later in the thread. The character is absolutely the MC. And the death definitely comes at the end of the book. I didn't mean to make it sound like the book itself was about the ideal of the character. Its an absolute tragedy that he dies, thus its the ending.

Namatu · Jan 5, 2010

The way you're presenting it is interesting. I'm interested anyway.

Try it and see how it works. If the MC-who-dies spends most of the book searching for this next POV character, it could make sense, especially if the reader feels a connection to this character.

lucidzfl · Jan 5, 2010

Namatu said:
The way you're presenting it is interesting. I'm interested anyway. Try it and see how it works. If the MC-who-dies spends most of the book searching for this next POV character, it could make sense, especially if the reader feels a connection to this character.

He spent the entire book looking for his wife, 70,000 words or so. He finds her, has 24 hours to spend with her before a huge battle, and then dies on the battlefield. The last 5,000 words,told from her perspective, start with his death, and her escape from the battle and the aftermath of his death.

Kitty Pryde · Jan 5, 2010

What's keeping me (the reader) turning pages? For most of the book it's, Will this dude find his wife? Once he finds her, what's the question that keeps me interested in reading on? Like, Will this dude and his wife escape some danger and settle down in postapocalyptic wedded bliss? And once he dies, what's the question?

lucidzfl · Jan 5, 2010

Kitty Pryde said:
What's keeping me (the reader) turning pages? For most of the book it's, Will this dude find his wife? Once he finds her, what's the question that keeps me interested in reading on? Like, Will this dude and his wife escape some danger and settle down in postapocalyptic wedded bliss? And once he dies, what's the question?

The first question is Will he find his wife?
Words 0-62000

The next is will they live happily ever after?
Words 62000-70000

The final question is, was it all worth it, what now?
Words 70000-75000

lucidzfl · Jan 5, 2010

Ok, new thought peoples. I decided to change it from a headshot to being shot in the back.

I'm still going to have the part where Mitch's wife's POV takes over after he's shot and she's unable to get him out of there before the bombs go off.

At the very, VERY end of the book, she's ordered someone to fetch his remains from the bombsite. When the men come back, they say they couldn't find any...

How does that sit with you guys? Instead of making her the next character, we get the shock of his (possible) death, and then in the very last sentence of the book, leave the reader with a glimmer of hope that he survived.

GreenRoom · Jan 5, 2010

lucidzfl said:
Ok, new thought peoples. I decided to change it from a headshot to being shot in the back.

I'm still going to have the part where Mitch's wife's POV takes over after he's shot and she's unable to get him out of there before the bombs go off.

At the very, VERY end of the book, she's ordered someone to fetch his remains from the bombsite. When the men come back, they say they couldn't find any...

How does that sit with you guys? Instead of making her the next character, we get the shock of his (possible) death, and then in the very last sentence of the book, leave the reader with a glimmer of hope that he survived.

Either way, you've dropped his POV and switched to hers. I personally think it would be more annoying for the book to then end without either verifying that he is dead or switching back to his POV to show that he is alive.

My main problem with killing him off so far into the book with so little time remaining is that I wouldn't care about her perspective. The break in continuity would be more jarring to me than the death and would make the death hold less meaning for me.

Alternately, if you brought her perspective in earlier, it could work for me. You say he is looking for her throughout the first 62,000 words. Is there any reason you couldn't have some parts from her POV interspersed throughout this where she is (i'm totally presuming here since i'm unaware of the circumstances that lead to him looking for her) captive and doesn't know if she will be rescued, if she will live or die? If I've already been introduced to her POV prior to his death, I could care about it at the end. I think it's best to have the death, and not the POV change, be the jarring point. This could also make the ending more poignant when she, at the end, survives, but her husband, who rescued her, perishes as that might be an ending she never worried about or foresaw while she was captive.

David Wisehart · Jan 5, 2010

In my first novel I switched to a new POV character for the epilogue. The character had appeared in a previous chapter, early in the book, but had not had his own POV until the very end. None of my beta readers complained about it. They all liked the ending.

lucidzfl · Jan 5, 2010

GreenRoom said:
Either way, you've dropped his POV and switched to hers. I personally think it would be more annoying for the book to then end without either verifying that he is dead or switching back to his POV to show that he is alive.

My main problem with killing him off so far into the book with so little time remaining is that I wouldn't care about her perspective. The break in continuity would be more jarring to me than the death and would make the death hold less meaning for me.

Alternately, if you brought her perspective in earlier, it could work for me. You say he is looking for her throughout the first 62,000 words. Is there any reason you couldn't have some parts from her POV interspersed throughout this where she is (i'm totally presuming here since i'm unaware of the circumstances that lead to him looking for her) captive and doesn't know if she will be rescued, if she will live or die? If I've already been introduced to her POV prior to his death, I could care about it at the end. I think it's best to have the death, and not the POV change, be the jarring point. This could also make the ending more poignant when she, at the end, survives, but her husband, who rescued her, perishes as that might be an ending she never worried about or foresaw while she was captive.

I simplified for the sake of argument. She dies in chapter 1. He is looking for her killers after that. In chapter 39, he finds out she's alive. Writing from her POV prior to this is out of the question.

kaitie · Jan 5, 2010

If it counts for anything, as a reader this wouldn't bother me at all. Not even in the least. I'd actually probably be so caught up in, "What? He's dead!" and the emotions associated to care that you'd switched.

From a writer's perspective I might say to go from first to third so as to avoid any potential confusion, but as a reader that wouldn't even bother me. I might be weird though. Also I have a (as of yet way unfinished) book that has a similar ending. MC dies, the last chapter is told third person omniscient.

Just my two cents.

Lady Ice · Jan 6, 2010

If your book is an epic tragedy, you could use the last 5000 words from the POV of a Greek-chorus-esque character. That way we can identify with them as a reader because they've picked up on what we've picked up, but it always links it back to the main story.

shaldna · Jan 6, 2010

I'm yet to see this done well.

as you said, it very jarring, and thatt might be what you want, but it's not necessarily what the reader wants. it can actually make people put down a book.

it's hard to say without actually reading it, but why not give it a go, if it doesn't work then change it.

Oshodisa · Jan 6, 2010

As has been mentioned, could the last 5000 words be done as an epilogue. This would be less of a potential 'slap in the face' for the reader.

Alternately, how many chapters do we (the reader) know she is alive. You mention we find out in Chp 39(?). How many more chapters are there and could she be introduced from this point on. I have seen this sort of thing done, (but not to the extent of taking over the narrative by the end). These stories just introduced a couple of paragraphs at the start of each chapter giving their POV, before switching for the bulk of the chapter as the main character.

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