3rd person ltd descriptions

RikkiKane · Dec 30, 2009

Ok, 3rd person ltd means you stay inside the head of a single character per scene, I think I understand this perfectly now. But what should I do when I want to describe important things, like for example in my zombie novel when the dead are walking the streets outside, where people are being eaten alive?

I assume - if I'm using 3rd person ltd - I can only describe my characters knowledge and experiences about the phenomenon? Am I wrong? Can you dive into other palces where your pov character isn't present and describe things without breaking the 3rd person ltd rules? Or would this mean that my novel is 3rd person ltd and omni in other parts? I suppose I should just use scene breaks and go off and describe what I think is necessary?

I would really appreciate another piece of advice guys, as this is driving me nuts!: I have a couple of scenes where the pov characters are caught and eaten by zombies. How should I write the remainder of the scene when the pov character is killed? I would like to describe how the zombie continues to feast on the character's flesh and stuff like that, but that would mean breaking 3rd person ltd rules wouldn't it?

In fact, how can you write a scene in 3rd person ltd when the character has to be killed? Does the scene just have to end the second the character draws his/hers last breath? Sorry for my ignorance and I am very grateful for your help.

I thank you kindly.

ToddWBush · Dec 30, 2009

I've seen Robert Crais do something similiar with his crime books. Whenever his secondary MC Joe Pike is the driving force in the narratice, the story is told in 3rd person ltd. But stuff is described in ways that Pike wouldn't do it, like the scenery or something along those lines. You almost break away from 3rd person ltd and continue the description. It's a subtle change, but not something that most readers will catch, and it isn't jarring like if you switched to 1st person.

That's the way I'd play it.

backslashbaby · Dec 30, 2009

It sounds like you may be wanting to combine Objective 3rd with 3rd Limited. For the 'knowledge' scenes, I could totally see it, but I don't know if it's recommended or not.

As far as also wanting to show other charcters' feelings, you can do both in omni, but it sounds like you are more interested in Objective 3rd, like a camera. So I'd use Limited 3rd and switch people when showing other characters' thoughts. In other words, I wouldn't do an omni head-dipping combined with a camera view.

OTOH, you could just do full-on omni. It's a great POV, I think.

Bufty · Dec 30, 2009

It means one has decided to use a particular character as the viewpoint character for as long as one wishes that character to be the viewpoint character.

It can be for the whole story or up to the point he gets killed but if the POV character is killed one then has the risky task of introducing - and holding the reader with - a fresh POV character.

From what you say you may be doing this more than once and not concentrating upon one POV character to escort the reader through the tale.

If your POV character is going to be killed or eaten you either end the scene or have to switch to another POV with its attendant risks, or alternatively use another POV for the entire scene.

How do they cover bands of attacking zombies in the zombie novels you have read?

RikkiKane said:
Ok, 3rd person ltd means you stay inside the head of a single character per scene, I think I understand this perfectly now. But what should I do when I want to describe important things, like for example in my zombie novel when the dead are walking the streets outside, where people are being eaten alive?

I assume - if I'm using 3rd person ltd - I can only describe my characters knowledge and experiences about the phenomenon? Am I wrong? Can you dive into other palces where your pov character isn't present and describe things without breaking the 3rd person ltd rules? Or would this mean that my novel is 3rd person ltd and omni in other parts? I suppose I should just use scene breaks and go off and describe what I think is necessary?

I would really appreciate another piece of advice guys, as this is driving me nuts!: I have a couple of scenes where the pov characters are caught and eaten by zombies. How should I write the remainder of the scene when the pov character is killed? I would like to describe how the zombie continues to feast on the character's flesh and stuff like that, but that would mean breaking 3rd person ltd rules wouldn't it?

In fact, how can you write a scene in 3rd person ltd when the character has to be killed? Does the scene just have to end the second the character draws his/hers last breath? Sorry for my ignorance and I am very grateful for your help.

I thank you kindly.

Matera the Mad · Dec 30, 2009

If it's necessary, a smooth segue into a diferent POV is the best thing to do. Getting uptight and religious about any "rule" can be unhealthy.

Monkey · Dec 30, 2009

Bufty said:
It can be for the whole story or up to the point he gets killed but if the POV character is killed one then has the risky task of introducing - and holding the reader with - a fresh POV character.

Just my opinion, but I think this is going to end up being your real problem, RikkiKane.

Zombies are a great (albeit very used) concept, but they aren't a story. For story, we generally need emotional attachment, and one very standard, acceptable, and useful way to foster that attachment is by putting the reader into the head of a character.

My suggestion is to use page breaks whenever you switch characters, and limit your description to what can be shown through the lense of the current main character. I also suggest that at least one character survive from beginning to end. If you really want gory eating-a-main-character scenes, then show them through the eyes of another character, and do it well after the reader is attached to both the main course and the witness. Hopefully, the witness and the main course were deeply emotionally involved. :evil

Alternatively, the scene can end when the POV character is eaten, and that death will have direct and intense effect on the surviving characters...perhaps after they stumble upon the aftermath.

All this is to say, to hold the reader you need more than a great concept, and not just a nice plot--you need the reader to care. They won't necessarily care if, in the novel, the whole human race is eaten alive. To care, they'll need to get into the head--and heart--of your characters.

Maxinquaye · Dec 30, 2009

Monkey is right. A zombie is a tool, a plot device, aimed for the specific purpose of inducing worry in your reader - at the basic level. What's s/he worried about? The character(s) that s/he cares about.

But if you kill of the characters, you'll break the bond with the reader. At least, you'll be at a very high level of risk doing so.

Lady Ice · Dec 31, 2009

The writer can describe the scene in a detatched way until they choose to go into the POV head:

'The streets were filled with zombies. Blood poured down the gutters. The stench of death was in the air. It was not a nice place to be, Joe thought. Especially in the early hours of the morning.'

Maxinquaye · Dec 31, 2009

And also, in 3rd limited you have some latitude in varying the 'zoom' of your POV. Think of it as a dolly-mounted camera. You can have close-ups from inside a character's head, but you can also pull out to show a bird's eye view.

The rule is, in 3rd limited, is that you must restrict yourself to the chosen POV, and his/her perceptions of the world.

Also, you can probably fix it, without going into a new scene merely to describe the scene, fix your problem with a bit of telling

RikkiKane · Jan 5, 2010

Monkey said:
Just my opinion, but I think this is going to end up being your real problem, RikkiKane.

Zombies are a great (albeit very used) concept, but they aren't a story. For story, we generally need emotional attachment, and one very standard, acceptable, and useful way to foster that attachment is by putting the reader into the head of a character.

My suggestion is to use page breaks whenever you switch characters, and limit your description to what can be shown through the lense of the current main character. I also suggest that at least one character survive from beginning to end. If you really want gory eating-a-main-character scenes, then show them through the eyes of another character, and do it well after the reader is attached to both the main course and the witness. Hopefully, the witness and the main course were deeply emotionally involved. Alternatively, the scene can end when the POV character is eaten, and that death will have direct and intense effect on the surviving characters...perhaps after they stumble upon the aftermath.

All this is to say, to hold the reader you need more than a great concept, and not just a nice plot--you need the reader to care. They won't necessarily care if, in the novel, the whole human race is eaten alive. To care, they'll need to get into the head--and heart--of your characters.

Thanks for this! I will do just this I think! You guys are so great I wouldn't know what to do without you! I think, for the first time, I am really beginning to understand the beautiful sugnificence of 3rd person ltd and it's all because of you guys.

I am forever grateful.

Rushie · Jan 5, 2010

I'm currently reading World War Z by Max Brooks. It's a zombie book told entirely as a series of first person POV accounts and I highly recommend it to see how he paints the image of zombies all over the place while staying firmly inside one character's head. That character varies from account to account, but you know what I mean. To show a zombie disaster the person did not themselves see, they heard an account from another person. If you really don't want to break away from your character's head that might be the best way to handle it; have someone run in from the zombie infested street and give a gripping, terrifying account through dialogue of what's going on. Or the character can hear sounds from the street and imagine the scene. Screams, sirens, gunshots, moans, slurping, ripping, bone-cracking sounds.... the shuffling of hundreds of slow dragging feet.

RikkiKane · Jan 5, 2010

Rushie said:
I'm currently reading World War Z by Max Brooks. It's a zombie book told entirely as a series of first person POV accounts and I highly recommend it to see how he paints the image of zombies all over the place while staying firmly inside one character's head. That character varies from account to account, but you know what I mean. To show a zombie disaster the person did not themselves see, they heard an account from another person. If you really don't want to break away from your character's head that might be the best way to handle it; have someone run in from the zombie infested street and give a gripping, terrifying account through dialogue of what's going on. Or the character can hear sounds from the street and imagine the scene. Screams, sirens, gunshots, moans, slurping, ripping, bone-cracking sounds.... the shuffling of hundreds of slow dragging feet.

Wow! So what is this book like my noble friend? Is it scary? I take your point and it makes a lot of sense. I must give it some thought as I have a few options now. Your suggestion is a dam good one! Thank you.

To be honest, the reason I started writing a zombie novel was not only because I love zombies, but also because, all the short stories I've read about them are crap, and the worst one was probably written by Stephen King! It was called "Home Delivery."

I must say, I would really love to read a zombie book that scared as George Romero's Dawn of the Dead did when watched it back in 1985. I'm beginning to believe that some things are just meant to be seen and not read, and vice versa of course! So what kind of impact is this book having on you?

lucidzfl · Jan 5, 2010

If you can, show the events through the eyes of your mc.

Either have the person looking out a window seeing it, or have them see the carnage afterwards.

I have a scene where some really awful stuff happens outside of my MC who is holed up in a bunker. All he hears is the sounds. Its pretty terrifying, then when he goes outside he sees the aftermath.

There are plenty of ways to do this without complicating matters.

CaroGirl · Jan 5, 2010

Rushie said:
I'm currently reading World War Z by Max Brooks.

Hey, do you guys realize that's the son of Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft? Interesting, no?

RikkiKane · Jan 6, 2010

CaroGirl said:
Hey, do you guys realize that's the son of Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft? Interesting, no?

Yes, that's very interesting indeed.

shaldna · Jan 6, 2010

try reading a terry pratchett novel, he does this alot and very smoothly too. the key is to keep the same tone throughout, so it's not like you are writing two different peices. that way your reader won't notice the change so much and everything flows better.

3rd person ltd descriptions

RikkiKane

ToddWBush

backslashbaby

*

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Matera the Mad

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Monkey

Is me.

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer

Lady Ice

Makes useful distinctions

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer

RikkiKane

Rushie

RikkiKane

lucidzfl

Back from the dead

CaroGirl

Living the dream

RikkiKane

shaldna

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

3rd person ltd descriptions

~~~~*~~~~

Where have the last ten years gone?

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Is me.

That cheeky buggerer

Makes useful distinctions

That cheeky buggerer

Back from the dead

Living the dream

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

*