Does it matter?

Rachael Wade · Dec 29, 2009

I'm obviously new to this, so please bear with me. I'm finishing a novel that is going to cap off at about 80,000 words. It's supernatural/fantasy romance and is primarily geared toward young adults in my opinion, but here is my question- does it matter if I don't categorize it "YA" specifically? Does it have to be appropriately categorized for the publishers/agents I plan on submitting to at some point?(Should this be indicated for the purpose of including this in a synopsis, query, etc.? Or does the writing speak for itself?) Right now I feel that the content is appropriate for maybe 18- twenty somethings, but maybe not quite relatable for younger teenagers. Will this matter only when it comes time for submission to publishers or should I make sure I have that nailed down right now? I don't plan on adjusting my entire MS to suit certain age appropriate guidelines, however I've heard that it may be a requirement depending on various factors. I'm aware that I need to have a good idea of my targeted audience so that I can effectively market it, but are there any other standards I need to go by that I should know about?

I am not even sure what criteria determines YA, so I am trying to learn what I can. So far, from what I understand, YA fiction runs around 50,000 give or take, and is determined primarily by it's content and language. That's the sad extent of my knowledge...

Feel free to set me straight, thanks for the patience and insight, it's much appreciated!

blacbird · Dec 29, 2009

If you are "finishing up", I'll assume you're talking about a first draft. In which case, the last thing you need to fret about is word count. I garontee, as they say down in Cajun country, that you'll both need to, and be able to, cut 20% of those words, minimum. If I'm correct about the first draft status, that's your next task. You can get a lot of help and advice on that here. After a brutal thorough go-through, with the aid of a good beta-read or two, then and only then, should you worry about word-count.

caw

suki · Dec 29, 2009

Rachael Wade said:
I'm obviously new to this, so please bear with me. I'm finishing a novel that is going to cap off at about 80,000 words. It's supernatural/fantasy romance and is primarily geared toward young adults in my opinion, but here is my question- does it matter if I don't categorize it "YA" specifically? Does it have to be appropriately categorized for the publishers/agents I plan on submitting to at some point?(Should this be indicated for the purpose of including this in a synopsis, query, etc.? Or does the writing speak for itself?) Right now I feel that the content is appropriate for maybe 18- twenty somethings, but maybe not quite relatable for younger teenagers. Will this matter only when it comes time for submission to publishers or should I make sure I have that nailed down right now? I don't plan on adjusting my entire MS to suit certain age appropriate guidelines, however I've heard that it may be a requirement depending on various factors. I'm aware that I need to have a good idea of my targeted audience so that I can effectively market it, but are there any other standards I need to go by that I should know about?

I am not even sure what criteria determines YA, so I am trying to learn what I can. So far, from what I understand, YA fiction runs around 50,000 give or take, and is determined primarily by it's content and language. That's the sad extent of my knowledge...

Feel free to set me straight, thanks for the patience and insight, it's much appreciated!

Hard to tell from what you have posted whether your manuscript would be more marketable as YA or adult paranormal romance. But your post does make me think you aren't yet equipped to make that determination - so some research is in order. And yes, you do need to at least make an educated guess after some basic research, so that you know which agents to query.

First, head over to the YA subforum - look around and you will find threads on what makes a book a YA book as opposed to an adult book. In a nutshell, it's about the perspective. Short of pornography, pretty much anything that can be done in adult can arguably be done in YA (and you an read that debate in any number of threads over in the YA forum). How the content is handled and the perspective of the narrative would be the defining elements - ie, YA almost always has an immediate, adolescent perspective.

So, if your main character is a teen, and the story is told from his/her immediate, teen perspective, it will likely be most marketable as YA.

Word count for YA is a wide range, and a debate in and of itself, but between 50,000 and 70,000 seems to be the sweet spot, with word counts trending a little higher for historical and fantasy.

So, first, finish your manuscript. Then, head over to the YA forum and read up on what makes a book YA. And if you think your book might be YA, then head to the library/local book store, and read a bunch of YA books in your genre that have been published in the last 3 years to make sure your book feels YA.

Then, you can always query agents who rep both adult and YA and see who bites. But, to make your query efforts most effective, it would be best to determine for yourself, after research, where you think the book falls.

One last comment, you stated in your post, "Does it have to be appropriately categorized for the publishers/agents I plan on submitting to at some point?" I assume you mean you will query agents first, and only after you have exhausted all agents will you then submit directly to publishers. But I wanted to make sure - it's generally not a good idea to submit to publishers at the same time as agents, for a variety of reasons, including you could use up submissions to publishing houses before your eventual agent has a chance to help you make the book as strong as possible, and then submit it to the best possible editors.

good luck.

~suki

Lady Ice · Dec 30, 2009

YA has a teenage protagonist and is normally concerned with the experiences of being a teenager, even if it's a fantasy. Adult characters, unless they are the villain or a mentor, will be fairly sidelined; therefore unless you definitely want it to be YA, I wouldn't push that, as it might put off adults.

Remember KGOY- Kids Growing Older Younger. If you market it at YA, you'll get 11-16 year olds actually reading it. So if the content is entirely inappropriate for said age group, maybe not do it YA.

Momento Mori · Dec 30, 2009

Hi, Rachael, and welcome to AW!

Rachael Wade:
I am not even sure what criteria determines YA, so I am trying to learn what I can. So far, from what I understand, YA fiction runs around 50,000 give or take, and is determined primarily by it's content and language. That's the sad extent of my knowledge...

There's a discussion thread on the Forum about what constitutes YA fiction here, which might be worth checking out if you get a moment.

There aren't any hard and fast rules about word count in YA. A lot of it seems to come out between the 70,000/80,0000 mark but there are YA books out there as low as 40,000 and as high as 130,000. What matters is what's good for the story.

Content-wise, you can take it to pretty edgy levels nowadays. Swearing, sex, violence, drug-taking and abuse have all been featured in YA to fairly graphic levels. The key (IMHO) is the context and whether it's glorying the event.

Age-wise, YA protagonists do tend to be teenagers themselves BUT again, no hard and fast rules on it. I've seen a couple of books marketed at teens where the protagonists have been college aged (Scott Westerfeld's Parasite Positive (Peeps in the US) being the first example that comes to mind) and Eleanor Updale's Montmorency series is about an adult who's a thief and a spy.

Rachael Wade:
I'm finishing a novel that is going to cap off at about 80,000 words.

To parrot what everyone else has said, until you've finished the manuscript and gone through at least one edit, you don't really need to worry about the classification. If you're intending it to be aimed at a YA audience, then keep that in mind during the editing process because it will undoubtedly shape your approach to the manuscript.

Rachael Wade:
does it matter if I don't categorize it "YA" specifically? Does it have to be appropriately categorized for the publishers/agents I plan on submitting to at some point?(Should this be indicated for the purpose of including this in a synopsis, query, etc.? Or does the writing speak for itself?)

When you're ready for querying hell

, then yes you will need to specify in the query letter that it's intended for the YA market - especially if you're targeting YA agents/publishers. If you describe it as a YA paranormal romance then it shows that you're familiar with the market.

Of course, the beauty of YA is the potential for cross-over appeal, which means that you can also target paranormal romance/fantasy agents - in which case, you just describe it as a paranormal romance.

Hope that's of use.

MM

Sage · Dec 30, 2009

Word count - 80K is fine. It's in the upper range, but it's fine

Age - How old are the protagonists? If they're teens, it might be YA. If they're older, definitely not. If they're in their early twenties, check out the many threads about 20-something protags.

Content - YA readers can handle a lot more than people first think. Read widely. Check out Shady's Edgy YA thread if you haven't (I saw it was recently bumped so maybe you have).

What determines YA - Protag age, voice, and themes. Check out some of the stickies here too, and many many threads on this question.

Querying - Yes, you need to know your target market because you need to know what agents to query. Not all of them do YA and not all of them do adult, and some only do fantasy/paranormal romance if it's YA.

ETA: And then MM comes in and says it better than me

Tuuli · Dec 30, 2009

Make sure you've read tons of YA paranormal romance and adult paranormal romance to gage where yours lies. Each have their own genre expectations that you'll need to follow or at least understand.

And if you find you can't stand YA paranormal romances, then you know you shouldn't be writing them. Teens are smart, they'll know.

AryaT92 · Dec 30, 2009

When you are ready to query, keep in mind :

http://georgiamcbridebooks.wordpres...view-jj-st-martins-press-editorial-assistant/

They would make a good fit.

suki · Dec 30, 2009

AryaT92 said:
When you are ready to query, keep in mind :

http://georgiamcbridebooks.wordpres...view-jj-st-martins-press-editorial-assistant/

They would make a good fit.

I won't comment on whether or not St. Martins' foray into creating a "new adult" subgenre would in fact be the best fit for your book, as opposed to seeking publication with other publishers. If that is something that interests you, you can research it further elsewhere...

BUT, again, St. Martins is a publisher. And if you prefer to attempt to find an agent (and my strong advice is to first try to find an agent), then your eventual agent will handle submitting to publishers, and it is best not to start submitting to publishers while or before you look for an agent.

~suki

AryaT92 · Dec 30, 2009

^ I'm curious what's wrong with St. Martins Press?

suki · Dec 30, 2009

AryaT92 said:
^ I'm curious what's wrong with St. Martins Press?

I didn't say anything is "wrong" with St. Martins. But I am suggesting to the OP:

1. It might be better to find an agent instead of submitting to publishers directly, and if she decides to pursue finding an agent, she should definitely not pursue publishers at the same time/before querying agents; and,

2. If the OP decided to submit to publishers directly, she should fully research and explore all her options and all available publishers.

~suki

Kathleen42 · Dec 30, 2009

AryaT92 said:
^ I'm curious what's wrong with St. Martins Press?

There's nothing wrong with SMP. They publish great titles and are highly respected. Suki is merely saying that the OP might want to concentrate on finding an agent before trying to submit directly to publishers. Which is sound and smart advice, imo.

One of the reasons I didn't enter the SMP NA contest was that I would like an agent and I do not want to make said agent's job more difficult because my ms has already gone to publishers.

AryaT92 · Dec 30, 2009

Oh ok!

Rachael Wade · Dec 30, 2009

suki said:
One last comment, you stated in your post, "Does it have to be appropriately categorized for the publishers/agents I plan on submitting to at some point?" I assume you mean you will query agents first, and only after you have exhausted all agents will you then submit directly to publishers. But I wanted to make sure - it's generally not a good idea to submit to publishers at the same time as agents, for a variety of reasons, including you could use up submissions to publishing houses before your eventual agent has a chance to help you make the book as strong as possible, and then submit it to the best possible editors.

good luck.

~suki

Yes, the publishers will be my last stop! Thanks so much for the wealth of information here. I will keep all of this in mind as I continue to edit and revise. I didn't clarify on my original post, but I am working on the second draft at the moment, who knows when it will be complete- I'm sure I will find the answer to this with more research of my own along with the feedback I get from betas. Everything posted here helped me well beyond what I was expecting, though.

Thanks Suki, and everyone else who took the time to shed some light.

Rachael Wade · Dec 30, 2009

Momento Mori said:
Hi, Rachael, and welcome to AW!

There's a discussion thread on the Forum about what constitutes YA fiction here, which might be worth checking out if you get a moment.

There aren't any hard and fast rules about word count in YA. A lot of it seems to come out between the 70,000/80,0000 mark but there are YA books out there as low as 40,000 and as high as 130,000. What matters is what's good for the story.

Content-wise, you can take it to pretty edgy levels nowadays. Swearing, sex, violence, drug-taking and abuse have all been featured in YA to fairly graphic levels. The key (IMHO) is the context and whether it's glorying the event.

Age-wise, YA protagonists do tend to be teenagers themselves BUT again, no hard and fast rules on it. I've seen a couple of books marketed at teens where the protagonists have been college aged (Scott Westerfeld's Parasite Positive (Peeps in the US) being the first example that comes to mind) and Eleanor Updale's Montmorency series is about an adult who's a thief and a spy.

To parrot what everyone else has said, until you've finished the manuscript and gone through at least one edit, you don't really need to worry about the classification. If you're intending it to be aimed at a YA audience, then keep that in mind during the editing process because it will undoubtedly shape your approach to the manuscript.

When you're ready for querying hell , then yes you will need to specify in the query letter that it's intended for the YA market - especially if you're targeting YA agents/publishers. If you describe it as a YA paranormal romance then it shows that you're familiar with the market.

Of course, the beauty of YA is the potential for cross-over appeal, which means that you can also target paranormal romance/fantasy agents - in which case, you just describe it as a paranormal romance.

Hope that's of use.

MM

That is absolutely of use, thank you. You helped me learn some very important basics here, thanks for taking the time.

BTW Momento Mori rocks.

jasonleeward · Dec 30, 2009

Categorizing a Genre/Age Group

If your main characters are teens then you have a Young Adult (YA) novel. These novels typically are between 55k to 75k words, although for YA sci/fantasy they can run into 100k or more. You will need to specify this when submitting to agencies because on about every agent site I've seen, almost all ask for the genre or target audience of a manuscript. Those who don't will still expect it to be told. Yours is a YA novel for a readership between the ages of about 13-17 because the publishing industry typically sells manuscripts with older teens characters to readers who are in their younger teens. Also, don't underestimate the capacity of a younger teen, or 11-12 yr old, readership in following an old teen themed story.

DennyCrane · Dec 30, 2009

Another factor you might want to consider is familiarity with the YA genre itself. This is an assumption, but it sounds as though you don't read much YA. I suppose this is fine, but it's smarter to understand what you're trying to market. Why not go to the local bookstore, throw yourself in the YA section, find two or three books that have similar subject matter as your manuscript, and then read them. You'll have a better feel for what genre your book belongs when you finish.

Does it matter?

Rachael Wade

The Boîte Noire

blacbird

suki

Opinionated

Lady Ice

Makes useful distinctions

Momento Mori

Tired and Disillusioned

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

Tuuli

Research Addict

AryaT92

suki

Opinionated

AryaT92

suki

Opinionated

Kathleen42

crushing on fictional characters

AryaT92

Rachael Wade

The Boîte Noire

Rachael Wade

The Boîte Noire

jasonleeward

JasonLeeWard

DennyCrane

Dude. Seriously.