Stretching?

Tasmin21 · Dec 28, 2009

Vampires have been done. Werewolves have been done. Now, we have faeries (however you wanna spell it), witches, wizards, demons, angels, selkies, bean sidhes, etc. ad nauseum.

Does there come a point where we as authors are just simply stretching too much to find a "new" kind of obscure supernatural creature in an effort to make ourselves different?

Kitty Pryde · Dec 28, 2009

There are sooooooo many supernatural critters that authors aren't using at all. I can only think of 1 UF series using Chinese mythological creatures, and it's UF/sci-fi. (I'm hoping that will change when Neil Gaiman's book about Monkey King comes out.) Hindu mythological beings, I can't think of any UF book with them--maybe a garuda here and there but that's about it. The Wild Hunt is underused, nixies and undines and other weird water critters are underused, Canadian legends, American legends, the myriad of native american legends aside from generic Trickster Coyote are all underused. There are dozens of mythologies of African cultures that no one is writing about (aside from Neil Gaiman again with Anansi...and he's only using the one spider god!)

Who's writing urban fantasy about Baba Yaga? Hern the Hunter (he's frickin shakespearean, yo!)? Polynesian/New Zealand/Hawaiian mythology?

It's not that we've run out of mythological beings, or that we're stretching too far to look for them...it's that there are zillions of them out there and yet authors are sticking to the same critters.

Shadow_Ferret · Dec 28, 2009

And here I thought Baba Yaga was just something created for the Facebook's Vampire Wars.

And I don't view it as stretching (which implies stretching thin), I view it as expanding (as in increasing knowledge and opportunity).

rugcat · Dec 28, 2009

Kitty Pryde said:
Who's writing urban fantasy about Baba Yaga? Hern the Hunter (he's frickin shakespearean, yo!)? Polynesian/New Zealand/Hawaiian mythology?

C.E. Murphy's Urban Shaman(2005) features Hern.

Tasmin21 · Dec 28, 2009

I guess my point is that I worry that people (read: me) get too focused on coming up with something unused and original, and decent writing/character development/plot falls by the wayside in favor of something new and shiny.

And I'm fairly certain that I'm making no sense whatsoever.

Kitty Pryde · Dec 28, 2009

Tasmin21 said:
I guess my point is that I worry that people (read: me) get too focused on coming up with something unused and original, and decent writing/character development/plot falls by the wayside in favor of something new and shiny.

And I'm fairly certain that I'm making no sense whatsoever.

I don't know how widely reading myths and legends and fables and folk tales would reduce the quality of your writing/characters/plot. Are you stressed out about your critters being too boring or something?

YAwriter72 · Dec 28, 2009

Tasmin21 said:
I guess my point is that I worry that people (read: me) get too focused on coming up with something unused and original, and decent writing/character development/plot falls by the wayside in favor of something new and shiny.

And I'm fairly certain that I'm making no sense whatsoever.

When I wrote my faery story this year, my agent said that even though faeries are getting to be overdone, as long as I put my own unique spin on it, that would be okay. BUT I had to lean away from the typical human discovers they are a princess, and has to save the entire realm angle. And a lot of other "stereotypes" that come into play when writing about the fey.

Uniqueness counts when you re doing something that has been done. I don't think you have to do something you aren't comfortable with simply to sell a book though.

Tasmin21 · Dec 28, 2009

But at what point does "unique spin" become "gimmick"?

ink wench · Dec 28, 2009

Kitty Pryde said:
Who's writing urban fantasy about Baba Yaga?

Baba Yaga plays a small but important role in my YA novel on sub.

Tasmin21 said:
But at what point does "unique spin" become "gimmick"?

I don't have an answer but I think this is a good question. I've read a couple urban fantasies somewhat recently that have left me thinking they were all "awesome idea" and no "story." I've become very cynical though over the years and convinced that "idea" or "gimmick" is that all important factor, be it in landing an agent, an editor, or sparking mega-sales. :Shrug:

Shadow_Ferret · Dec 28, 2009

Tasmin21 said:
But at what point does "unique spin" become "gimmick"?

Does it matter? As long as the story is interesting, I think the readers are fairly forgiving over "gimmick." I mean look at all the cozy mysteries out there, each with it's own "gimmick." Some are set in specific states, some have animal themes, culinary themes, hobby themed, and so on.

Make the gimmick interesting, unique in its own way, and you won't have a problem. Because in my mind, there's still a world of difference between a gimmick and being generic and vanilla.

Oberon89 · Dec 28, 2009

ink wench said:
Baba Yaga plays a small but important role in my YA novel on sub.

I don't have an answer but I think this is a good question. I've read a couple urban fantasies somewhat recently that have left me thinking they were all "awesome idea" and no "story." I've become very cynical though over the years and convinced that "idea" or "gimmick" is that all important factor, be it in landing an agent, an editor, or sparking mega-sales.

As Forrest Gump famously said at the side of Jenny's grave, "I think maybe it's both. Both happening at the same time." You need both gimmick and story. If you saw mostly gimmick, that's truly unfortunate, but methinks you're correct that agents/editors are looking for fresh stuff—because they're inundated with copycat plots and interchangeable characters most of the time.

I don't doubt that a really good gimmick might land a sale and make bajillions—the sparkly vegetarian vampire gimmick worked for Stephanie Meyer—but stories/gimmicks like that won't keep me coming back to the author. I don't care about a single one of her characters and I'll never buy anything of hers again. But authors who make me care about characters—Card does it consistently, and McCaffrey used to—well, I'll buy everything they write, regardless of the gimmicks they employ in a particular book.

(BTW, for an interesting take on Baba Yaga, check out Orson Scott Card's Enchantment.)

S.J. · Dec 28, 2009

I think it depends on whether the 'species' you choose adds a new dimension to the story, or whether they're simply vampires/fairies/whatever with a new name.

Sometimes it's interesting to add a new facet to mythical creatures, especially exploring the real-life ramifications of their powers or differences. That being said, maybe if someone wants to write about a 'mythical' species they should think, "Would this work just as well with humans?"

/Random

Ruv Draba · Dec 28, 2009

You don't have to inject old mythology into an urban environment. You can adapt mythology or create your own.

Ancient myth was created for a world where lions roamed and whirlpools would eat ships. But what are the hazards of today, and how can they become monsters? What are the icons of today and how can they become gods? In an urban environment, what is the Wild? What is the Other? What is the Wonderful?

Kweei · Dec 28, 2009

I'm the camp that as long as the story is interesting I'd take old and used mythology.

As a reader, I want something that will grab me. I want a good plot and good characters.

As a writer, I really want to make something unique.

So I guess if you can create a new spin on something old or at leats make it seem fresh, all is good. I like to write and read about angels and demons. So they are done to death. I like them. And I think there are many stories that cane be told with them.

Though I can see why agents might be wary of faeries and demons and vampires, etc.

ChaosTitan · Dec 28, 2009

Tasmin21 said:
But at what point does "unique spin" become "gimmick"?

ink wench said:
I've read a couple urban fantasies somewhat recently that have left me thinking they were all "awesome idea" and no "story."

I think the answer to Tas's question is somewhere in ink wench's reply. As a reader, it isn't enough to have an "awesome idea." The book has to have a story, interesting characters, and stakes. Without these things, it fails for me.

Putting a unique spin on something isn't enough. I think that's why people are so strongly split over liking/hating Twilight. It did have something unique to offer as far as the vampire interpretation and applying it to adolescent angst, but for a lot of people, the gimmick wasn't enough. The writing failed, the story failed, something failed for them.

Ruv Draba said:
But what are the hazards of today, and how can they become monsters? What are the icons of today and how can they become gods? In an urban environment, what is the Wild? What is the Other? What is the Wonderful?

Love this. My brain is a'whirling.

eyeblink · Dec 28, 2009

Kitty Pryde said:
Who's writing urban fantasy about Baba Yaga?

Baba Yaga and other figures from Russian myth/folklore appear in Kim Wilkins's Rosa and the Veil of Gold (US title: The Veil of Gold). It's not really *urban* fantasy as most of the novel takes place in the countryside.

defcon6000 · Dec 28, 2009

Well if any of you are looking for a new spin on blood suckers (or just need some entertainment

):
http://www.cracked.com/article/128_7-vampires-around-world-worse-than-ones-in-twilight/

YAwriter72 · Dec 28, 2009

Ruv Draba said:
You don't have to inject old mythology into an urban environment. You can adapt mythology or create your own.

Ancient myth was created for a world where lions roamed and whirlpools would eat ships. But what are the hazards of today, and how can they become monsters? What are the icons of today and how can they become gods? In an urban environment, what is the Wild? What is the Other? What is the Wonderful?

QFT! Awesome!!! (Oh man I so didn't need this lil brainstorm in the middle of edits!!!)

BrigidMary23 · Dec 29, 2009

Tasmin21 said:
Does there come a point where we as authors are just simply stretching too much to find a "new" kind of obscure supernatural creature in an effort to make ourselves different?

I'm not sure the brand of supernatural creature is going to make or break a story -- I think it's all about the execution: the characters, the story, the moments.

People like to be surprised with something unique, but only within the bounds of something they consider normal. If we stray too far from common mythologies (vampires, werewolves, fairies), people might be reluctant to read about something they've never heard of, like the Baba Yaga. (That's a new one on me.

) There's no surprise there -- just puzzlement, and maybe indifference.

But put a different spin on something familiar, and people are delighted. I think people want to read a good story. They want to see the unexpected. Not an unexpected creature -- an unexpected resolution.

That's not a gimmick. That's just good writing.

Stacia Kane · Dec 30, 2009

Ruv Draba said:
You don't have to inject old mythology into an urban environment. You can adapt mythology or create your own.

Ancient myth was created for a world where lions roamed and whirlpools would eat ships. But what are the hazards of today, and how can they become monsters? What are the icons of today and how can they become gods? In an urban environment, what is the Wild? What is the Other? What is the Wonderful?

Chiming in with "best post ever."

Tasmin21 · Dec 30, 2009

Ruv Draba said:
You don't have to inject old mythology into an urban environment. You can adapt mythology or create your own.

Ancient myth was created for a world where lions roamed and whirlpools would eat ships. But what are the hazards of today, and how can they become monsters? What are the icons of today and how can they become gods? In an urban environment, what is the Wild? What is the Other? What is the Wonderful?

Gaiman actually addressed something very similar to this in American Gods. It's been a while since I read it, but the general idea was that in the modern age, there were new gods like Media and Technology, etc.

Leanan-Sidhe · Jan 3, 2010

Tasmin21 said:
Gaiman actually addressed something very similar to this in American Gods. It's been a while since I read it, but the general idea was that in the modern age, there were new gods like Media and Technology, etc.

Yeah, that`s that first example I thought of too. Then I thought of China Mieville`s Un Lun Dun, where the big bad monster, Smog, is basically sentient pollution and the heroine uses a magic gun to defeat it. Very urban, contemporary fantasy.

And I agree with Kitty Pryde that there are soooo many creatures out there to use in mythologies that aren`t Western European. Anansi Boys was mentioned, and it`s one of my favorites.

Z0Marley · Jan 4, 2010

Tasmin21 said:
Does there come a point where we as authors are just simply stretching too much to find a "new" kind of obscure supernatural creature in an effort to make ourselves different?

I think well-written authors that go beyond just the unique idea aren't stretching a thing. Unfortunately, I see more "new" creatures that are exactly like x-stereotypical thing. For example, vampires that aren't called vampires but act exactly like a vampire minus one or two small traits. That's stretching in my opinion, but a fairly original idea with new twists and spins added along with a damn good story is priceless in my eyes.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jan 11, 2010

Ruv Draba said:
You don't have to inject old mythology into an urban environment. You can adapt mythology or create your own.

Ancient myth was created for a world where lions roamed and whirlpools would eat ships. But what are the hazards of today, and how can they become monsters? What are the icons of today and how can they become gods? In an urban environment, what is the Wild? What is the Other? What is the Wonderful?

Old news, Ruv. I’ve been doing that forever. And now you’ve gone and spoiled it by putting others on the track. It was bad enough when Neil Gaiman started messing around with that. You got it in for me, or something?

Of course, the New Weird has been doing something like that for awhile, although often in secondary worlds and not Earth.

shaldna · Feb 2, 2010

i've certainly noticed that there are trends in urban fantasy as to which creatures are popular. 15 years ago it was vampires everywhere. then it was werewolves, and thenwitches and wizards and now we are back to vamps and wolves again.

there are so many creatures out there that are interesting, but the problem comes when a writer is trying too hard to find something new and interesting.

Stretching?

They will come from below...

i luv you giant bear statue

Court Jester

Lost in the Fog

They will come from below...

i luv you giant bear statue

someone let me off this crazy ride

They will come from below...

ray of motherf#%&ing sunshine

Court Jester

The Druid you're looking for

Addict? I can quit whenever I want!

Expert Procrastinator

Around

Barbara says hi

someone let me off this crazy ride

Paranormal YA Author

Girl Detective

They will come from below...

leaving trails of fairy dust

The cake is a lie. But still cake.