Is Outlining Always This Hard?

Outlining is the easiest part for me. The actual writing is way harder.

I tend to deviate as I write, because when scenes are unfolding, I realize the story would be stronger if Y happened instead of X.

However, I only outline a couple of chapters in advance. I keep the main story arcs in my head because I know they're flexible.

I don't find it particularly difficult. But then again, I use a "system" based on the three-act structure. I need to figure out some key things, but after that it sort of takes care of it self, giving me both a structure to follow and at the same time it gives me pantser-possibilities.

My outline method

That gives me the structure to fill up with scenes, and it tends to give me say 40 scenes. I need to fill up the rest myself, but that's like half or a third of a book.

It may not work for you, but what the heck, if it does, great.

OTOH I of course suck utterably at synopses and such, so can't really help you there.

I find outlining infinitely harder than just sitting down and writing a novel. Then again, I hate outlining so much that I wouldn't do it no matter how easy I found it.

I realize you're asking the outliners but, for me, this:

Jamesaritchie said:

I find outlining infinitely harder than just sitting down and writing a novel. Then again, I hate outlining so much that I wouldn't do it no matter how easy I found it.

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I've written novels both ways just to see if I could.

I can and I don't find either method particularly difficult.

The only reason I outlined book #3 was 'on a dare/just to see if I could' and as for book #4...well, I was still in the middle of writing book #3 when I had the idea and I wanted to write something of it, and an outline was a way of writing the book without writing it, if that makes sense.

Next book I'll probably go back to winging it. Depends on how I feel.

I'm not a hardcase outliner, so I can't answer your final questions. But who ever told you writing should be easy? Some parts of it are easy and some parts are hard. You have found something that works, but you are upset because part of it is hard. Think of it this way--you earn the easy parts by doing the hard parts. But you want the easy parts for free. It doesn't work that way (as you have found out from experience).

One thing you might try is experimenting with different levels of outlining. Some outlines can be extremely detailed so they appear almost like a rough draft. Other outlines just list important events and scenes so they may not really be outlines at all, but just a series of guideposts to help with overall story organization. And there is everything in between. Find your level of comfort in that range that also helps you develop a coherent and complete story.

No matter how you choose to outline, let the writing parts have their own life, so you are not married to the form and function of a pre-specified skeleton. New and interesting creatures can be built from a compliant and dynamic scaffold.

And...I certainly hope this thread doesn't degenerate into yet another outliner versus non-outliner, my-way-is-better-than-your-way thread.

I like outlining -- it's the initial exploration of the world I'm about to "conquer," like a single narrow path cut through the jungle to the other side. During the actual writing, that path will get wider and shoot off hundreds of side-paths exploring territory only glimpsed through the vegetation during the outline traverse. Plus who knows what strange and dangerous animals will wander in from the underbrush?

My outlines are organic, not formal. The early ones are basically free-writing about the story, out of which I glean a vague overall plotline. Then I start free-writing a chapter by chapter outline. Inevitably this develops into a very rough first draft, including whole fleshed-out scenes and dialogue. I keep reworking this (and related notes about specific topics, like how magic might work in my world, timelines, character sketches, thematic musings, maps, social structure diagrams, etc.) until I have a plotline I'm comfortable will work, as well as a working grasp of my characters. My current WIP outline is well over a hundred single-spaced pages.

Yep, single-spaced. The single-spacing and the use of present tense signal my brain that this isn't a SERIOUS draft, so don't get all tensed up already, have fun. Brains need to be tricked, for their own good, you know.

Anyhow, this method always turns out reasonably smooth and painless first drafts for me. I've used it for both novels and short stories.

I don't know but it kind of sounds like you might be getting in your own way. Are you just so eager to start writing out the story in your head that the whole outlining thing is a real suck fest?

I'm a big fan of figuring out what's going on in my head and then rerouting--tricking--myself into doing it another way. Maybe do the outlining thing backwards?

Say you have on your wall at home a break down of basic story structure in your genre. It's all neatly laid out in sticky notes or something just hanging there waiting for a story. Now you write whatever it is you want to write no outline--then once you have a chapter or whatever done take it to the sticky wall and start figuring out where the pieces fit.

Like I said, beats me, but it might help rewire how your brain thinks about outlining.

You could try changing it up just to make it interesting. One thing that's kind of fun is using 3x5 cards for individual scenes, noting plot points etc. Then you can add scenes and reorder them all in front of you like a puzzle until you like what you see.

SKetcher said:

In response to a couple of the posts above:
1: I realize that some of writing is hard. I get that. I've managed to slog my way through some projects with various methods. What I'm trying to figure out is if the difficulty I'm facing is "normal". Which may or may not be answerable
2: I don't know if I'm getting in my own way, but I'm always very eager to start writing once I have the basic idea. That said, when I do that, the first draft ends up a mess.

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If you don't like outlining, why are you doing it?

If you're determined to outline, though, there are many different methods. Try one. Try several.

SKetcher said:

So, flipping things around a bit -- For you non-outliners. What is your method? I mean, when you're done with your first draft do you see the same issues I typically see -- the story taking large scenic routes around your gaping plot holes?

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Whenever I've written a novel with no planning, there haven't been plot holes because...well, I put it down to being a reader for so long, I just 'know' how stories work. That said, I've deleted entire characters before. Does that count as a 'plot hole'? I've always thought of those as things like writing myself into a corner, not knowing how to explain the crime or whodunnit, wrapping things up in a messy way.

I had to get one book down from 150k to around...well, a hell of a lot less, hence the deletion of one character and her story arc. The book could have worked with her just as well, but the publisher I then decided to sub to had a limit of around 80k, so...away she went. The final draft came in at 85k, although the editor said she would have accepted anything around 90k if the book was good enough to warrant that little wiggle room.

That's not to say my first drafts don't need work. They need tidying, but that's more to do with my tendency to use qualifiers and repeat phrases rather than any fault with the story.

I put all of the above down to yes, my reading but also getting the 'ubershit' out of my system over the years by writing some truly craptacular stories. I now know what works and what doesn't so yes, while "The first draft of anything is shit," for me, that means more in a stylistic sense than with regard to any major plot bunnies.

First of all, it helps to come to the keyboard prepared to write. That means you've thought about the scene you are about the write, so you know something about who will be in the scene, what they will be doing, the setting, how it all fits in the general story arc you have in mind, and you know something about how all of these will fit into the pace and tone of the scene that will best accomplish what you want to accomplish for the reader. None of that has to be hashed out to the point of writing it down, but if you've thought about it, you will start moving your fingers with some direction. You don't even have to know the entire story arc, just the general direction.

And one word to address what may be just a writing miscue (but in case it isn't):
First drafts are not SUPPOSED to be crappy. But they are ALLOWED to be crappy. There is a huge difference.

How deeply do you go into your outline? When I started my novel I did a really involved outline that covered every point in the book. But when I started writing, what I found would happen is something else would come into my head that made more sense and worked better. So I went with that. I ended up using the outline to give me the basic story arc but the details of how I ended up there changed as I wrote. An outline is just a basic idea of where you want the story to go and how to get there. But it isn't set in stone and can and probably will change as you progress with your writing.

There's a difference between a flawed methodology, and one that doesn't fit you personally. There are lots of perfectly fine shoes that make my feet hurt. Just keep trying till you find what works for you.

I tend to be a hybrid. I like to have the main plot points down, but a lot changes inbetween. I write till I hit a wall, then I outline till I hit a wall, then I write all that up and usually go past it till I hit a wall... You get the idea. Although as I become more conscious of plot structure and how it works, the method is changing a bit. In my current WIP (well, former current WIP) I felt things were dragging and the next main plot point wasn't due for a while. So I needed somebody to do something dramatic. There was an obvious candidate, and I finally came up with something she could do that would kill several birds with one stone. It was great. It introduced a new turning point, without excluding any of the others I had planned. Michael Hauge would probably be offended, but we'll see how it all comes out in the end.

I'm a die-hard outliner, and outlines are the easiest part of writing for me, even more fun than doing the first draft.

Of course, I absolutely hate, despise, and loathe editing and revision, so it all evens out, lol.

Outlines aren't that long, even my detailed ones are rarely over 5,000 words, so I wouldn't think it would be that difficult to just push through it if you find it really helps you.

Outlining is only hard if you make it hard. The actual process of sitting down and writing out what's going to happen is no different than writing a whole book without a plan, just in a condensed period. Look at writing the outline as a seat of the pants book with all of the meat taken out of it. As long as you aren't a writer more consumed with the verbiage than with the result of the story, you're essentially doing the same thing.

Fredster said:

Outlining is the easiest part for me. The actual writing is way harder.

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This is the same for me, I enjoy making the outline, then wish I could hand it to someone else to actually write, lol.

I use a variant of the snowflake method. Mine is only 3 steps:
1. Write a short description of the concept (2-4 sentences).
2. Write a short synopsis describing the main plot points (5 paragraphs or so).
3. Write a lone scene by scene outline going into detail about why each character is doing what, and how they are feeling at the moment. I often don't come up with a climax for the story until this step. (3-6 pages).

So you get the benefit of writing in drafts, but you can do the first two steps in a single day, although the third can take longer because it may require serious brainstorming.

I'm an outliner of sorts. My outlines tend to be pretty vague and not very outline-y to allow for things that just happen while I'm writing. I usually have a very general sense of where the story's going, major complications and how it will all end up, and then a set of notes about upcoming events, usually numbered. Those notes don't take long to do as I plan a bit, write a bit. Plan a bit more, write a bit more.

I understand the pain of coming across that heap of wreckage when you don't have a plan. Some people are excellent "pantsters" and can write effectively without a plan, but I need some kind of a guide, and it sounds like you feel you do, too. The challenge is to find the type of outlining / planning that works for you. I would say it's okay if it feels difficult--everyone has different aspects of writing that are difficult for them--but if you despise it with white-hot fury, well, for heaven't sake, try something different.

--Q

Maybe it's not the right kind of outline for you. I've come to the conclusion I need to do an outline--otherwise I end up having to do way too much revision to fix problems that maybe an outline would have helped me spot.

Finding an outline that works for me has been very hard, though--few have worked really well. For some reason, I have a really hard time grasping the concept of what a scene is, and the definition seems to vary from outline to outline.

What I'm currently doing--this outline came from a workshop (the link is here, but you need to register), though I absolutely am unable to do the last step of it:

0. (My added step): Identify what makes the story special.

1. Write a rough synopsis, including the beginning, middle, and end. This was extremely useful because it forced me to think about the ending instead of leaving it for later.

2. Pull five key events out of the synopsis, then answer the following about each one: How did the main character get here? What events/objects are needed for the story? Where does the character go from here?

The last step of it, which I still look at and go "huh?" is more character-oriented. Every time anything had anything related to character development, I had an extremely difficult time getting the concept. I just don't develop the characters at the same time as I do the story--characters come afterward.

So I ended up going off the template and doing something different for the last part. It's a more detailed synopsis sans subplots. No idea how well it will work over the course of the first draft, but so far, I have already spotted a potential problem that I've been working through.

Linda Adams said:

I have a really hard time grasping the concept of what a scene is,

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I had that too until someone explained to me that:

a) It happens in one specific location, and
b) It answers one specific question.

Your character enters a specific location with a goal. The goal is concrete: "I want water", or "I want to get laid", or "I want to kill that dude on the left."

There's an implied questions in those goals: "Will he get water?", or "Will she get laid", or "Will it kill that dude?"

Then you put obstacles in the way of reaching the goal:

The faucet is broken.
The pretty girl/guy doesn't want her gender for sex.
The dude is guarded by twelve eunuch close combat masters.

And the answer to the question is mostly no.

And when you have your answer, the scene is over.

Well, that's my understanding - or I'm misunderstanding you, and brow-beating you with stuff you already know.

Just one more definition added to the list.

I was going to suggest the same thing - maybe you just haven't found the right method yet. My outlines are more a list of scenes that will happen - not all of them, but at least the highlights. I start writing from there, and fill in the spaces between. Works better every time I do it, and the outline is infinitely adjustable, of course.

JamieMT said:

I was going to suggest the same thing - maybe you just haven't found the right method yet. My outlines are more a list of scenes that will happen - not all of them, but at least the highlights. I start writing from there, and fill in the spaces between. Works better every time I do it, and the outline is infinitely adjustable, of course.

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This is what I do when I outline.

Nothing more than a list, really. Once I get to around 30 bullet points, I think, "That's enough to fill a book," and get going.

Some chapters get deleted. Others are reordered. Sometimes I smoosh together two or more. But once I get to around 30 points, as I said, I'm good to go.

My 'outlines' are very loose and as Jamie said, adjustable.