Awareness of Stupidity When Writing a Novel

Wavy_Blue · Dec 12, 2009

So I'm around ten pages into my most recent WIP. And I already feel as dumb as an ox. I have no idea what nineteenth-century towns looked like, or what the technical terms for parts of a carriage would be. Many more things have come to my attention that I know very little about.

So how do other writers (you) cope with this kind of frustration? How should I go about doing book research?

Aschenbach · Dec 12, 2009

Just keep writing. Fill in the gaps later.

One thing you must never do is to hold off writing about something until you have researched it inside out. Research doesn't make one a great writer. I don't care how accurate fiction is. If I wanted factual accuracy I would read non-fiction.

James D. Macdonald · Dec 12, 2009

Yet if a plot point turns on something that research shows is impossible, then you'll need to rewrite that entire plot point. Which is a pain.

Here's how to research: Go to your public library. Go to the children's room. Read all the books in the children's room about your subject. This will give you an idea about the general outlines and the vocabulary.

Take what you've learned, and knowing what you want to accomplish in your novel, and go to the adult section of the library. Start with the large survey books, and read only the chapters that you need. Then go to the specialized works that deal with the particular points that you're working with.

At the point where you realize that all the footnotes refer to works that you've read, you're done.

There's still on-the-ground research, and there are still museums. And cultivate the friendship of a genuine expert.

What's made up should be the very minimum amount that you need to make your fiction happen.

Kalyke · Dec 12, 2009

I'll tell you. In my case, I had to start to write about what I knew, or find out about something. I began to follow logcal life styles. I met people, I hung out. I hung out for a year before writing anything. I learned a lot, got invited to tour lots of places, made a lot of friends. I am not going to ever try to write about stuff I don't know about-- ever. The whole idea of being a kind of social observer is ingrained in writing.

Of course, this is an era of excess. Everyone from small town Misorurii wants to write a story about characters living in 18th century Amsterdam. Why not do yourself a favor and leave that till later and write about something near to your own life?

colealpaugh · Dec 12, 2009

There's no shortcut. I have a character who crashes in a ski race and suffers a traumatic brain injury. I just counted thirty-three bookmarks I've made to research the subject.

I now feel like I could report to the operating room tomorrow, saw open a skull, and perform successful surgery.

And I just might.

Aschenbach · Dec 12, 2009

Use Her Name said:
I am not going to ever try to write about stuff I don't know about-- ever...
Why not do yourself a favor and leave that till later and write about something near to your own life?

Apologies for gutting your post but I think I preserved your central message.

Which I (respectfully) disagree with. If everyone only wrote about what was closest to them I would probably give up reading. If I followed that rule I would be writing very derivitative fiction about my rubbish family, my rubbish job, and rubbish everything else blah blah blah.........

There are already far too many books like that. I would rather a writer attempt to take me into the unknown. Risk is always better than safety, in my opinion.

WildScribe · Dec 12, 2009

I tend to research stuff point by point, or place a marker (mental or otherwise) when the detail is something that I will need to research later (which, in one case, means calling a grocery store and asking about starting salaries so I have an idea of how much my MC makes at the start of a story).

In terms of a setting, immerse yourself in contemporary fiction from that period. You will get an idea of the setting and the voice and tone of the times.

Albannach · Dec 12, 2009

Aschenbach said:
Just keep writing. Fill in the gaps later.

One thing you must never do is to hold off writing about something until you have researched it inside out. Research doesn't make one a great writer. I don't care how accurate fiction is. If I wanted factual accuracy I would read non-fiction.

When it comes to historical novels, I have to disagree. The research is essential. You should know the period before you start. If there are details you need to double check--then I would agree, but someone writing about a period they know nothing about is a prescription for ... bad historical novels.

And you may not want historicity but I assure you that a LOT of readers of historical fiction do.

Edit: So basically, what Uncle Jim said.

Aschenbach · Dec 12, 2009

Albannach said:
When it comes to historical novels, I have to disagree. The research is essential. You should know the period before you start. If there are details you need to double check--then I would agree, but someone writing about a period they know nothing about is a prescription for ... bad historical novels.

And you may not want historicity but I assure you that a LOT of readers of historical fiction do.

Edit: So basically, what Uncle Jim said.

I agree you shouldn't attempt a historical novel without knowing about the period, but being a slave to facts isn't in anyone's interests.

I have never understood people who avidly read historical fiction and even more avidly complain about errors irrelevant to the story. IT'S FICTION! True, it has to have a semblance of reality but who cares if a Roman helmet is slightly the wrong shape?

Some people are natural trainspotters, I guess. I'm not so fussy. If a writer tells me a lie I will gladly gulp it down if it is sufficiently polished and shiny.

Nya RAyne · Dec 12, 2009

Wavy_Blue said:
So I'm around ten pages into my most recent WIP. And I already feel as dumb as an ox. I have no idea what nineteenth-century towns looked like, or what the technical terms for parts of a carriage would be. Many more things have come to my attention that I know very little about.

So how do other writers (you) cope with this kind of frustration? How should I go about doing book research?

This is the perfect example of why I will never, EVER, write a historical novel. If I can't make it up as I go or at the very least perform a bing. com search, I'm not writing it.

Good luck to you, my friend!!

Claudia Gray · Dec 12, 2009

Research is your friend -- with any kind of story, really, but especially with historical fiction. Not only do you find the details you know you need, but you'll discover people/places/things/information that you never dreamed you needed, but will make your book much richer.

While you're researching, you can get to know your characters and their interrelationships better, so it's not as though you would have to put the entire writing process on hold.

Wavy_Blue · Dec 12, 2009

Nya RAyne said:
This is the perfect example of why I will never, EVER, write a historical novel. If I can't make it up as I go or at the very least perform a bing. com search, I'm not writing it.

Good luck to you, my friend!!

It's actually a fantasy set in a fictional world, but it's set in an era similar to the late 19th century as we know it. So technically I could make up whatever I wanted to, but I don't want to have my towns and cities be inconsistent with the kinds of technologies that exist in this time period.

So basically I want to know what is historically accurate and then weave in the fantasy from there.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I'll be heading into my library in the very near future!

Stunted · Dec 12, 2009

I'd say that you should get through the first draft and take notes of things to look at later like "parts of carriages".

Things like, "The organization of a rich household", you might want to work on while writing, but I'd say that you should avoid letting it derail your work writing. Maybe use it as a break when you're zonked.

gothicangel · Dec 13, 2009

Research, but that doesn't just mean books and internet.

Do you live near a town that still has parts of it's nineteenth century district? I know you are in the US, so it's different, but my home city in the UK (Newcastle) still has a lot of its nineteenth century buildings. This is down to a fire that destroyed most of the city and the buildings and city layout is very much 19th century, most of the medieval city has been destroyed. I remember a few years ago Grey's Street was named the most beautiful in Europe.

kaitie · Dec 13, 2009

Wavy_Blue said:
So I'm around ten pages into my most recent WIP. And I already feel as dumb as an ox. I have no idea what nineteenth-century towns looked like, or what the technical terms for parts of a carriage would be. Many more things have come to my attention that I know very little about.

So how do other writers (you) cope with this kind of frustration? How should I go about doing book research?

Whenever I get to something like this, I automatically stop and go do some research. I really only move on once I'm confident enough that what I have is at least pretty close to correct.

I also strive more for plausibility than 100% accurate. That might be a bad thing, not entirely sure, but most of my story isn't stuff that I think would necessarily actually happen in real life. I aim for things that logically make sense, are as correct as I can get them, and won't make a reader stop and say, "You clearly have no idea what you're talking about." I figure there are probably some mistakes, but hopefully minor.

I like the idea of traveling to somewhere nearby with historical buildings if possible, but if that's impossible, Google Earth is your friend. It won't give you a completely accurate portrayal, but might give you an idea.

Edited to note that I do not write historical fiction. :tongue

Clearly that's a bit different.

NeuroFizz · Dec 13, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
Yet if a plot point turns on something that research shows is impossible, then you'll need to rewrite that entire plot point. Which is a pain.

Plus, research frequently generates plot points, subplots, and character development.

ClaudiaGray said:
Research is your friend -- with any kind of story, really, but especially with historical fiction. Not only do you find the details you know you need, but you'll discover people/places/things/information that you never dreamed you needed, but will make your book much richer.

Totally agree with this.

Also, the need for research is not limited to historical fiction. If anyone is giving their human character an injury, that type of injury should be researched to allow accurate post-injury activities. And that injury sure as hell shouldn't go away in an unrealistic period of time (which frequently happens in fiction) or the character will become super-human instead of merely human.

The bottom line is one of my harpmessages. Come to the keyboard properly prepared to write, and this includes doing necessary research. Of course details can be filled in, but as mentioned by Uncle Jim, at what cost to the revision and re-writing process. Many people get stalled for this very reason--re-writes that seem overwhelming due to the volume of holes and errors that have to be addressed. Being better prepared on the first write likely will help people who have this problem.

More and more, new writers should get the idea that writers don't just sit down and write words. They write ideas, they write concepts, and yes they also some write facts. For most people new to this business, this would benefit from pre-thought, and some preliminary research.

Phaeal · Dec 13, 2009

Aschenbach said:
One thing you must never do is to hold off writing about something until you have researched it inside out. Research doesn't make one a great writer. I don't care how accurate fiction is. If I wanted factual accuracy I would read non-fiction.

Many readers, especially those who prefer historical fiction, DO want factual accuracy in fiction. One major blunder can sink the book for them. One minor blunder can alert them to authorial weakness and set them looking for more errors.

Once the fictive net is torn, it's hard to recatch the reader.

Fiction must be true, apart from its great lie. Make it true in the first draft or during revision, but make it true.

Now, if you REALLY want trouble, make an error about firearms or weapons in general...

Phaeal · Dec 13, 2009

NeuroFizz said:
Plus, research frequently generates plot points, subplots, and character development.

Absolutely. For example, when I learned that my Puritan MC couldn't possibly marry his uncle's widow, I came up with a much more interesting way to incorporate the future bride into the uncle's household.

Primary materials, like the journals and letters of people who lived in your period of interest, are especially rich with details that can bring your fic alive. They also show you what people were really concerned about and surprise you with the ways they deviated from the "norms" of their societies.

Jamesaritchie · Dec 13, 2009

Aschenbach said:
True, it has to have a semblance of reality but who cares if a Roman helmet is slightly the wrong shape?
.

Who cares? Anyone who knows what the right shape is, and that's a lot more readers than you would think.

When I spot an error like this, I put the writer down as a truly lazy researcher, and I immediately wonder what else he got wrong.

Because it's fiction is not an excuse for getting facts wrong. Just the opposite. Getting the facts right, getting the details right, is what makes historical fiction work.

dawinsor · Dec 13, 2009

I love research. I have to stop myself from getting carried away and including all kinds of details the reader's not going to care about.

If you just need something like the name of a carriage part, the traditional way is to insert TK there. It's an old journalist's symbol for "to come." You don't use TC because too many words have that letter combination and you want to search on TK to find places you need to look up stuff.

I like to look up details like that after I'm too brain dead to write more that day, or maybe on a day my family's around, making it hard to write.

Hittman · Dec 13, 2009

I have never understood people who avidly read historical fiction and even more avidly complain about errors irrelevant to the story. IT'S FICTION! True, it has to have a semblance of reality but who cares if a Roman helmet is slightly the wrong shape?

Some of your readers do, and if you get it wrong you completely blow your credibility with them. You've broken the spell and ruined the experience for them.

One major blunder can sink the book for them. One minor blunder can alert them to authorial weakness and set them looking for more errors.

On the flip side, getting one obscure minor detail right will make them trust you for the rest of the book.

In one episode of Sons of Anarchy a new bad guy shows up. He's going to open a cigar shop and he visits Clay, the SOA leader, with a gift and a threat. He hands him a box of cigars and says, "I heard you like Camachos."

Perfect. Comanchos are a strong, kick ass cigar, exactly the kind of cigars Clay would smoke. If the writer had just googled "popular cigars" he could have had the character say, "I heard you like Macanudos," which would have been a huge mistake. Macanudos are a nice cigar, a polite cigar, a mild cigar. A fine cigar, but nothing Clay would smoke.

Maybe 5% of the audience caught that. Maybe fewer. But for those of us who did, it made the rest of the show more real. I have no idea what really goes on inside a motorcycle club, but when I see tiny details like that done to perfection I find the other parts of the story much more believable. If the writer gets something that trivial perfect he probably got everything else right too.

Lady Ice · Dec 13, 2009

With historical fiction, you're writing it as if you know this period very well. The act of writing, unless your characters/narrator show otherwise, is imparting information. Because of this, bad mistakes annoy people: 'Why are you telling me it's Y when it's X?' Yes, the people that pick out little things are annoying, but it's also annoying to have your intelligence insulted.

If you're constantly tripping over yourself about whether it's right or not, you may want to read a few books on the matter (use the internet to find out what you need to look up but don't rely on it. Lots of people big up their authority and are actually wrong). However don't put in so many details that it feels like a History lesson.

CheekyWench · Dec 13, 2009

Lady Ice said:
With historical fiction, you're writing it as if you know this period very well. The act of writing, unless your characters/narrator show otherwise, is imparting information. Because of this, bad mistakes annoy people: 'Why are you telling me it's Y when it's X?' Yes, the people that pick out little things are annoying, but it's also annoying to have your intelligence insulted.

If you're constantly tripping over yourself about whether it's right or not, you may want to read a few books on the matter (use the internet to find out what you need to look up but don't rely on it. Lots of people big up their authority and are actually wrong). However don't put in so many details that it feels like a History lesson.

That was going to be my point. I don't want to be bogged down with so many facts I get lost in the description.
If it's 19th century fantasy, you have a lot more leeway in how you want your history to be. Just follow your own rules once you've set them.

Fredster · Dec 13, 2009

When I come to something I don't know, I have to stop everything until I learn about it. Even then, I find that I don't really KNOW my subject, so once the first cut is written I find an expert to read over it and offer suggestions. Fortunately, what I'm writing is modern and experts abound once you start looking.

So far, I've learned about cancer and treatments...and met an oncologist who was able to point out big flaws in my made up treatment.

Learned about genetic research, then got pointers from a geneticist to make it more believable.

Dug up my book on police procedure, then talked to a real detective.

Read up on the basics of flying--and crash landing--a helicopter, then hooked up with a couple of pilots who helped me make it more real.

If I'd "kept writing" when I was out of my element instead of doing some research, I'd have had to start over, probably, instead of just cleaning up after I found my experts. I'd strongly recommend, as others have, that you find out what you need to know before continuing.

Trying to write my first book has been a humbling experience. I can relate 100% to the idea of being aware of my stupidity as mentioned in the thread title. You think you're pretty smart, until you start trying to write about stuff you know nothing about.

Libbie · Dec 13, 2009

Wavy_Blue said:
So how do other writers (you) cope with this kind of frustration?

Research.

How should I go about doing book research?

I start with Google, read a few interesting articles, and look for citations or references to books. Then track those books down.

Don't discount emailing people who are experts, either. Explain to them that you're writing a book and would like to ask them a few questions about X subject. I've had some nice (and very helpful) email conversations with well-known Egyptologists and magicians while researching stuff for my books.

Awareness of Stupidity When Writing a Novel

Adventure is out there!

Moral Marjorie

Your Genial Uncle

"Bear trumps Elephants!"

Moral Marjorie

Slave to the Wordcount

AW Addict

Moral Marjorie

On the verge of greatness

Adventure is out there!

Ich heiße Superphantastisch!

Toughen up.

With great power comes

The grad students did it

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Dorothy A. Winsor

Makes useful distinctions

O.o

Village idiot

Worst song played on ugliest guitar