Tense and POV

Maryn · Dec 12, 2009

The passworded Bordello had some writerly discussion which might benefit many, except those who can't make time to sort through the fun stuff for the substance.

Quoting ScarletPeaches:

First up - point-of-view.

It's common for people to mix up point of view and tense and they are completely different.

If someone asks about first person, the conversation usually moves on to present tense as if the two are the same.

THEY ARE NOT.

I'm writing this in first person present tense. First person POV because of the 'I' and present tense because it's happening now. I am typing. See? Typey typey typey.

Once, I wrote something in first person past tense. I spoke about something I'd done, as if it had already happened and hoped you understood it.

Point of view = WHO is speaking.
Tense = WHEN the events happened.

Please. Don't mix them up or I'll bang my head against a brick wall then hit someone.

In the end, it doesn't really matter if the writer can slap the correct label on her/his writing for it to be good writing, but it's very helpful to agree on terminology when we want to discuss it.

First Person, the narrator is I. It can be in any tense--past, present, future, past progressive, future perfect, anything. But usually it's either past or present tense. The thoughts, feelings, dreams, past, etc. of the narrator need not be italicized, because everything in this POV is coming to the reader through the narrator.

I go to his apartment and look around. Where is he? There is no clue to where he's gone.(Present tense, first person)
I went to his apartment and looked around. Where was he? There was no clue to where he'd gone. (Past tense, first person)

Third Person limited, the narrator is s/he. It can be in any tense, but usually it's either past or present tense. The thoughts, feelings, dreams, past, disappointments, etc. of the narrator need not be italicized, although some authors prefer that they be. Everything in this POV is coming to the reader through the narrator.

She goes to his apartment and looks around. Where is he? There is no clue to where he's gone. (Present tense, third person limited)
She went to his apartment and looked around. Where was he? There was no clue to where he'd gone. (Past tense, third person limited)

Third Person omniscient, the narrator is s/he. Again, any tense. The big difference is that it's as if a supreme being had written it. Not only does the reader know what multiple characters are doing, not filtered through the knowledge of a single character (the narrator), but the reader knows any character's thoughts, hopes, dreams, and all that, as it suits the author to share. It was once very popular, but is now considered to put too much distance between the reader and the characters.

She goes to his apartment and looks around. Where is he? Knowing she would snoop, he has left no clue to where he's gone. (Present tense, third person omniscient)
She went to his apartment and looked around. Where was he? Knowing she could snoop, he had left no clue to where he'd gone. (Past tense, third person omniscient)

I know, way short of deathless prose, but maybe good enough to help us all keep it straight? Or slash, if that's your preference.

Maryn, former teacher

ELMontague · Dec 12, 2009

Actually, quite helpful. Thanks.

barbilarry · Dec 12, 2009

Thank you very much Maryn. Im printing this off. I already printed off what everybody else said last night. I love you guys.

dnic · Dec 23, 2009

So a quick question:

If I were to write erotica in first person, is there anything that I should watch out for aside from the usual first person issues?

Maryn · Dec 24, 2009

dnic said:
So a quick question:

If I were to write erotica in first person, is there anything that I should watch out for aside from the usual first person issues?

Only the usual writing issues.

One thing I've seen people have to work through is the presentation of non-erotic information the reader should know for the scene to play out as it does. If, for instance, the female has been abused in the past, and reacts to light bondage by totally freaking out, the time to tell us why is probably not when it happens, or just after, but well before the bondage play begins. (Maybe she thinks she can do this, because she trusts him completely and he is not Evil Ex, only she cannot?) If she's your POV character, you can use inner monologue very effectively. If he's your POV character, that scene is going to be very different.

But hey, the many fine people here will help you over whatever hurdles you face. That's what we do.

Maryn, who should be gift-wrapping

dnic · Dec 27, 2009

Whoops. Forgot to answer here. :e2smack:

Thanks!

Bookewyrme · Dec 29, 2009

I actually had a problem recently with this. I wrote my first real sex scene ever, as part of a steampunk short story. I wrote the story in past tense, switched to present for the sex, then reverted to past against, all in first POV. Now obviously, this is Not Okay, and certainly wasn't done consciously, but my issue is...the story needs to be in past, but for some reason erotica in past 'feels' weird.

My experience with erotica is rather limited however. Any thoughts?

nkkingston · Dec 29, 2009

I've never been a fan of first person past, since it requires such a suspension of disbelief ("why is the narrator withholding information they now know if this would be a natural place to mention it? how are they remembering the dialogue in such detail? what are the odds she'd be able to describe someone who passed in the street so accurately when the scene happened months ago?"), but first person present can be difficult to read in longer pieces. I think the longest I've maneged to keep it up for was about 12,000 words. It was appropriate for the characterisation, but a few readers commented that though it worked it did wear them out reading it. It's good for slightly flightly or easily distracted characters, IMO, but I don't think I could carry it off for a serious one.

If it's a short story, I'd try the whole thing in present tense. As long as the plot doesn't involve them referring to things they could only have learnt later ("If only I'd known then what I know now! While I thought he was smelting cogs that day he was actually stripping the maid out of her corset, which would explain the look she gave me over lunch") then it should work.

If it has to be in past, though, then you've got to find a way to make the sex work in the past. Maybe a few epithets about how unforgettable it was? Or "all I remember was it felt so good when he _____ that I have no idea how we actually ended up in the bed/bath/wardrobe"? I suggest avoiding really explicitly detailed stuff, and it helps if the sex is somehow different to any the character has had before (even if it's just in terms of quality!) to justify it standing out amongst their memories.

scarletpeaches · Dec 29, 2009

Crikey. I got quoterated in a OP all newthreadly, like.

quickWit · Dec 29, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
Crikey. I got quoterated in a OP all newthreadly, like.

Well put, Peach.

scarletpeaches · Dec 29, 2009

nkkingston said:
I've never been a fan of first person past, since it requires such a suspension of disbelief ("why is the narrator withholding information they now know if this would be a natural place to mention it? how are they remembering the dialogue in such detail? what are the odds she'd be able to describe someone who passed in the street so accurately when the scene happened months ago?"), but first person present can be difficult to read in longer pieces.

The same could be said for first person present.

"If they're currently walking along the street how could they be writing this?"

nkkingston said:
If it has to be in past, though, then you've got to find a way to make the sex work in the past.

Just as you've got to find a way to make the sex work in present. I mean, if I'm being boned, there's no way I'm gonna be on my laptop telling people about it.

nkkingston said:
Maybe a few epithets about how unforgettable it was? Or "all I remember was it felt so good when he _____ that I have no idea how we actually ended up in the bed/bath/wardrobe"?

"It felt good when he..." is filtering which isn't always wrong but some writers (i.e. me) avoid it because it puts the reader at one remove from the action, thereby destroying any good done by the first person narrative and the intimacy and immediacy inherent therein.

nkkingston said:
I suggest avoiding really explicitly detailed stuff

Oops.

Ah well, didn't do my manuscript any harm.

nkkingston said:
...it helps if the sex is somehow different to any the character has had before (even if it's just in terms of quality!) to justify it standing out amongst their memories.

Every sex scene in my books is there for a reason (and yes, I've deleted some on the edits after deciding they didn't move the plot along) and yes, in a way I'd say each instance is somehow 'different' but not so it would stand out in their memories. The sex scenes I include are there to show the progression of the relationship, or a change within the MC. Inclusion in the final manuscript is dependent on the story, not the MC's memory.

thethinker42 · Dec 29, 2009

nkkingston said:
I've never been a fan of first person past, since it requires such a suspension of disbelief ("why is the narrator withholding information they now know if this would be a natural place to mention it? how are they remembering the dialogue in such detail? what are the odds she'd be able to describe someone who passed in the street so accurately when the scene happened months ago?"), but first person present can be difficult to read in longer pieces.

See below.

If it has to be in past, though, then you've got to find a way to make the sex work in the past. Maybe a few epithets about how unforgettable it was? Or "all I remember was it felt so good when he _____ that I have no idea how we actually ended up in the bed/bath/wardrobe"?

As a reader, that would annoy me to no end. If it's included in the story, it should go without saying that there's a reason for it, there's a reason it stuck out in the person's mind, etc. Just like "I felt..." is unnecessary because...well...if the person telling the story felt it, I don't need that filter to tell me that.

I suggest avoiding really explicitly detailed stuff, and it helps if the sex is somehow different to any the character has had before (even if it's just in terms of quality!) to justify it standing out amongst their memories.

But...it's...erotica. Avoiding the explicitly detailed stuff makes no sense at all.

I've actually never heard this argument before. First person past is quite popular among readers and has been for ages, but I've never heard anyone say they couldn't suspend disbelief because, really, the narrator couldn't possibly remember all of this or because they're withholding information. It's storytelling. The reader knows they're being told a story, and most readers understand that the story simply wouldn't be the same if they were spoonfed all the information right from the get-go. Information is withheld to keep the reader's interest.

To each their own...if first person past isn't your thing, it isn't your thing. But I must disagree strongly with the recommendation to filter or water down scenes simply because most people wouldn't remember things in such great detail. Maybe they wouldn't, but the story wouldn't be worth reading if the writer did that. Particularly in erotica, the idea of over filtering and watering down sex scenes really defeats the purpose of writing it at all. I write a lot of my stories in first past because the voice simply works better and it creates more intimacy, which is what I'm aiming for when I write erotica.

Four of my five contracted books are in first person past with copious amounts of explicit sex, unfiltered recollections of events, and detailed dialogue. I haven't gotten any complaints yet, and I'm sure as hell not going to change what works.

JulieHowe · Dec 29, 2009

I learn so much from the AW forums. Thanks!

Bookewyrme · Dec 29, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
The same could be said for first person present.

"If they're currently walking along the street how could they be writing this?

This made me think of this comic and I had to go track it down to share.

Anyway, that's why I really really don't like 1st person present. Or 3rd person present for that matter, though that's slightly more palatable. I think 1st past is my favorite, with close 3rd past being second. Present just always feels so awkward.

Also, I was confused by this example from kingston's post:

If it's a short story, I'd try the whole thing in present tense. As long as the plot doesn't involve them referring to things they could only have learnt later ("If only I'd known then what I know now! While I thought he was smelting cogs that day he was actually stripping the maid out of her corset, which would explain the look she gave me over lunch"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it is suggested that I write the story in present tense, but the example seems to be past tense?

nkkingston · Dec 30, 2009

But...it's...erotica. Avoiding the explicitly detailed stuff makes no sense at all.

By explicit details, I didn't mean sexual ones! I should have clarified which definition of explicit I was using, espcially here

I meant details like "He undid the buttons starting with the top one" or "the laces on one shoe were done up, but on the other they weren't"; things you'd notice at the time but wouldn't remember later. If the sex is good why would you later care whether he'd started unbottoning from the top or the bottom, and unless he tripped over them who cares if his laces were undone?

First person past is quite popular among readers and has been for ages, but I've never heard anyone say they couldn't suspend disbelief because, really, the narrator couldn't possibly remember all of this or because they're withholding information.

I know I'm not alone in struggling with first, but equally I know I'm in the minority. A lot of it's to do with the distance between the narration and the events? If it's written in such a way I can believe the narrator is summing up their thoughts at the end of the day I'm not as bothered as when they're looking back at something that happened years ago. Fictional memoirs really make me twitch - Memoirs of a Geisha is the root of my dislike of first because the narrator supposedly remembers long sections of dialogue from conversations she had when she was eight. It just shattered my suspension of disbelief. Needless to say, it takes a lot of work to persuade me to read a fictionalised memoir these days; I'm a bit lairy of the non-fiction ones too, to be honest.

There are plenty of first past books I've read and really enjoyed. If it's a likeable narrator and written well I'm as engaged as I am with third person, probably even more so. That's the plus of first, but it's also a risk - if you don't like the narrator it's much harder to stay engaged than a book in third with a MC you dislike (I gave up on Laurell K Hamilton for this reason - I loved the worldbuilding and the mystery plots and the secondary characters, but I couldn't stand Anita). I find continuity errors are more glaring and realism is more important as well, but this might be because I'm more on the alert for them in first than I am in third. Comfort zone thing, I guess.

if I'm being boned, there's no way I'm gonna be on my laptop telling people about it.

Unless it's heavily implied, I don't tend to think of first person books actually being physically written by the narrator. Maybe told by one person to another, but usually I assume we're just getting a window on the narrator's thoughts. Hence why I'm more comfortable with present - in past I wonder why connections aren't being made but in present the narrator is no more aware of them than I am. But like I said, it's harder to keep it up for longer works without it getting annoying, so YMMV.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it is suggested that I write the story in present tense, but the example seems to be past tense?

It was meant to be an example of when switching to present would be difficult - if the scene only makes sense because the narrator now knows something they didn't then it's much harder to rewrite into present!

scarletpeaches · Dec 30, 2009

When it comes to past, though, the narrator might not be telling the story from 'after the end'. They could be telling it from even...say, one minute in the future.

Tense and POV

Maryn

I Tried

ELMontague

barbilarry

I just wanna write

dnic

Resident Lurker

Maryn

I Tried

dnic

Resident Lurker

Bookewyrme

Imagined half of it.

nkkingston

Bemused Girl

scarletpeaches

quickWit

Totally Ninja!

scarletpeaches

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

JulieHowe

Spent the night with Jack Daniels

Bookewyrme

Imagined half of it.

nkkingston

Bemused Girl

scarletpeaches