Is it necessary to Use Grammar

First of all, every sentence uses grammar. It's how you put words together to have a meaning that other people can understand.

As for using correct grammar, I can't understand why a writer would not want to master grammar. It's a basic tool of the trade. We all slip up occasionally, but someone who makes basic mistakes on a regular basis is not ready for the big leagues. Maybe not even the small ones. Using incorrect grammar unknowingly (I ain't talking about doing it for effect) means you don't understand how to put a sentence together, which means you aren't ready to be taken seriously. And as any musician or athlete can tell you, practicing something wrong is going to mess you up. Any serious writer is going to want to master their craft so it comes out right, everywhere, all the time. Practicing mistakes is reinforcing mistakes.

And if you don't have a basic respect for language, why on earth would you want to be a writer? It's like a cook who doesn't like food.

Yes, it is necessary to use grammar, unless you aren't interested in communicating. Grammar is the collection of rules for arranging words so that they will create meaning.

Jumble(TM)(R) for sentences.

Grammar gets away only Yoda using without.

Grammar Yoda without away only using gets.

I know, I should let this one go, but...

One thing I never allowed myself to do as a guitarist was play with an out-of-tune instrument. Not even alone in my bedroom. It wrecks your ear. You get used to out-of-tune, and then you can't tell the difference.

Same principle here. I can promise you that the people in here whose posts are riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes are not the ones with multiple publishing contracts. It is also true that a fixation for correct grammar will not make you a wonderful writer, any more than a fixation with tuning your instrument will make you a great musician. But great musicians and great writers treat their craft with respect.

teh kids use txt-speak in emails & chat, my kids 2, & i cn't stop them.

My husband and I had a discussion about this last night, with the kids (or one of them; the other one was on the computer ) and I think using chat speak is a fundamentally different skill from coherent writing. As long as my kids use proper writing when communicating in appropriate settings, like in their academic work, hand-written letters to the grandparents, and so on, I will concede defeat in this area.

To me, this site, in particular the grammar forum, is one of the places where proper writing is expected.

Even txt-speak and lolcats have their own grammar.

MumblingSage said:

Even txt-speak and lolcats have their own grammar.

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Evn txt-spk & lolcatz haz own grammerz.

You have to use the best grammar you can. When you find a weak area, you strengthen it.

As for txt speak, my kids, than God, never used it, and refuse to chat with anyone who does. It's amazing how well this works.

vagassi said:

Is it necessary to use the grammar in forum discussions. Probably there are people from various place and their languages are different but they are joining to the forum for only the purpose of sharing information. But in some members are hurting the people who doent have proper knowledge in grammar and just simply using their own English in discussion. Hence please tell whether it is important to use grammar in forum discussions.

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I'd say yes, it is important to at least use the basic subject-verb-object form. It's not a deal-breaker though, but it is a path to better communication. I applaud you for posting in a forum which is dominated by people who know and often obsess about English. It is like walking into a lion's den, I would imagine. I could understand your writing perfectly, but I see what you mean. I would know immedietly that you do not know English Grammar that well.

English does not have many suffixes or prefexes to tell you what use the word is to the sentance (nominative, genitive, dative, instrumental, accusative etc.) There are a few suffixes in tenses, and adjectives, gerunds and others also have suffixes. The English language uses word placement in a sentance to tell you what sufixes and prefexes tell you in some other languages where word placement is not such a big deal.

People speaking English do not really make up their own version of the language, so it is usually disconcerting to see a person writing in a way that is so unique that the majority of people cannot read it. Like I said, I can read it fine.

Writers usually try to seek clarity, and are interested in words, so I can see why a person who does not write clearly might be called on grammatical errors.

I haven't really seen many posts where someone is trying to deliberatly "hurt" someone because of their language use. They might ask you to rephrase something because they cannot understand it. As to being "hurt" in this case, I would think that would be an interpretation.

Maybe an answer to this is to put a little notice in yiour signature that states where you are from, and that while you are not an expert English speaker, you are interested in writing and hope that people will be kind when answering your posts.

That is the only advice I can give.

I agree with those posting on the side of grammar in day-to-day communications. To say that "content" is somehow separate from a common spelling, punctuation, and grammar is more than naive.

Writing is a code where the smallest mark can make a huge difference. If someone signals dot-dot-dot, dash-dash-dash, dot-dot-dot, it's the universal code SOS for help. But insert one small dash among the dots, and you can have dot-dash-dot-dot, dash-dash-dash, dot-dash-dot-dot: LOL. What a world of difference. Written communications can be much the same.

Jamesaritchie said:

As for txt speak, my kids, than God, never used it, and refuse to chat with anyone who does. It's amazing how well this works.

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I'm deaf. Any distance communication is written rather than vocal. I depend on text messages a great deal, and ask friends and family to try to use normal spelling and insert proper upper case and punctuation for clarity when texting me. Most do. Those who won't don't get responses and soon give up.

Perhaps I am reading something into the original question that most of the rest of you don't see, but when I read the question, it seemed to me that this is an individual whose first language is not English, and who may not even write in English, but would still like to participate in the discussions without getting criticized for poor grammar.

"Use Her Name" offered a thoughtful response.

The OP's question sounded to me as though English may not be their first language but they wanted to be able to exchange ideas here at AW. While I understand that this is a writing site it is also a place to exchange ideas. I would hate to think that we are so rigid in our English-centric thinking that we would miss out on that exchange.
Not using or trying to use proper grammer because you're a lazy bum is one thing. Not being grammatically fluent in a second or third language is another.

There are a handful of AW regulars who speak/write english as a second language. Their english is not perfect.
1. They just try to do the best they can, and
2. Nobody really cares or criticizes them for it. I don't think that it's a big deal.

I checked out Vagassi's few posts and in no place did he/she encounter any public reprimands for his English. He (?) has, however, introduced himself with the exact same text (check the Newbie forum) in dozens of different forums over the last few weeks. I have no idea what that means, seeing as he hasn't indulged in any spamming or trolling that I've seen.

In general, AW is pretty tolerant of people whose first language isn't English. So I'm a little bit at a loss to understand his motivation for posting the question. Unless he's been getting a lot of flak in private. His post in the Newbie forum (and everywhere else on the Internet) introduced himself as the new webmaster, which needless to say got a reaction from MacAllister. That might be what he's referring to, in which case I would say that if you express yourself so poorly that the message is distorted, of course you can expect people to misunderstand you. In that case, you just explain yourself in the thread, instead of starting another thread elsewhere to complain about the reaction.

FWIW, I have been both a teacher of ESL and a learner of languages, so I do appreciate the challenges. But a plea to be allowed to express yourself as you wish when you can't get people to understand what you really mean is just silly. You roll up your sleeves and learn how to speak comprehensibly. I've done it myself in more than one language and I never blamed anybody else when I confused people by my lack of knowledge. I just kept trying till I got it right.

Vagassi, if you are referring to what happened in your introduction thread, you should go back there and explained what you really meant. Because what you said was clearly incorrect. You are not the new webmaster here and if the owner of the website chooses to make that clear, it's not a question of criticizing your grammar, but correcting false information. And might I suggest that you spend enough time at one of your many forums to understand how they really work?

I love being able to 'hear' an accent in someone's writing. I think it's charming

I'm only a stickler for grammar in work that is turned in for something (certainly anything published!). I think I got my knuckles rapped once too often in school I'm kind of militant about the right to be casual in many situations, as annoying as many find that. Sorry! That's the kind of sorry where I probably won't change, to be clear

I do note that your plea for casualness was expressed in perfectly grammatical English. Casual is fine. And I virtually never reprimand people for typos and mistakes. But I find it very hard to take someone's ambitions as a writer seriously when every line contains basic errors. They're like the contestants in American Idol who sing offkey and probably couldn't even define the word key. They aren't about to become professionals any time soon. They aren't even going to be a hit at the karaoke bar. It was worth discussing that question even if it doesn't apply directly the the OP, just to give a few deluded souls a wake-up call. (You are not among them, backslashbaby.)

I get upset to see 'grammar' often spelt 'grammer.' There is a liberal trend that says it's all right to disregard spelling, punctuation,word order,and all points of sentence structure - someone else will pick up on that en route to your book's manuscript being published.
This is like expecting someone else to pick up your dirty clothes from the floor. It is far better, long-term for yourself and your future writing to take that step towards learning how it's done. "Eats, Shoots and Leaves, by Lynne Truss,Profile Books, 2003 presents much info in a digestible way. It soon becomes enjoyable - an extra skill to play around with.
I do appreciate, though, that as well as having English as a second language, some of us are lousy typists - a completely different drawback! However, when the two combine it is time to stop and do some extra practice.

I doesn't matter where you are or what you are writing, unless you use correct grammar and spelling people will become terribly confused when reading your words. Confused readers are not happy readers.

Judg said:

I do note that your plea for casualness was expressed in perfectly grammatical English. Casual is fine. And I virtually never reprimand people for typos and mistakes. But I find it very hard to take someone's ambitions as a writer seriously when every line contains basic errors. They're like the contestants in American Idol who sing offkey and probably couldn't even define the word key. They aren't about to become professionals any time soon. They aren't even going to be a hit at the karaoke bar. It was worth discussing that question even if it doesn't apply directly the the OP, just to give a few deluded souls a wake-up call. (You are not among them, backslashbaby.)

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Thank you And I'll admit that a few errors give me the shivers or make me think the person is an idiot. That's something to keep in mind! OTOH, sometimes you can tell the person might be dyslexic, for example. I'd hate to think they'd have to spend hours on an internet post. It's all good, except for plain laziness, I think.

If you're a carpenter, is it necessary to use hammar?

caw

blacbird said:

If you're a carpenter, is it necessary to use hammar?

caw

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Boo. Hiss.

blacbird said:

If you're a carpenter, is it necessary to use hammar?

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I'd use a hammer, m'self.

Well, that's one of the reasons I don't correct people as a general rule. Even the best of writers can write a scrambled sentence when they're tired, people might be foreigners, or dyslexic, or distraught, or crumby typists. But if they are criticizing somebody else's English, they are fair game (and those posts always contain at least one error). And if they ask for input, I'll tell them straight that they need to learn the basics of grammar. Although I usually prefer to avoid responding. They rarely take it well, even if they asked. And if somebody asks if grammar matters, well, that's a subject near and dear to my heart. If you don't know the difference between you're and your or when you should use me and when you should use I, that won't prevent you from becoming a writer. But only because those things can be learned. Until you learn them, they will almost certainly prevent you from becoming a writer. And if that's where your weakness lies, you will do yourself an immense favour by trying to make every sentence you write grammatically correct, until you can do it as naturally as breathing. Because while industry professionals will take the occasional error in stride, there is no way they are going to take on a manuscript in which every other sentence is crippled. And I don't blame them one little bit. Life is too short and there are too many other writers who have made the effort.

All of the you's are meant as general terms. I'm not speaking to any particular individual. It's just a general principle. If you want to be a professional anything, you do what it takes to master the skills and knowledge necessary. And it shows, even when you're off-duty. A fashion model doesn't suddenly become fat and clumsy, just because she's wearing tattered jeans in her back yard. An athlete doesn't suddenly become uncoordinated on his day off. Their professional aptitude shines through, even when it's not on display. If you're writing incomprehensible slop, it's time for some basic drills.