Editing Help, Need to See Red

What are the sort or things your friend found in the first chapters? Was it overuse of words or phrases? Too many or too few dialog tags? Poorly related pronouns? Passive voice? Spelling? Grammar? I could go on.
Have you done any research on editing and revision? There are several good books out there. Self-Editing for Fiction Writersby Renni Browne and Dave King, is a good one.

You don't have spelling problems with grammer or punctuation problems with other's?

Eherm. Well...look at all that stuff in red more analytically. What's the difference between the way the sentences are built and the way they should be? What is the general difference, apart from the particular words?

Get another beta or two. Your first readers were probably too undiscriminating. Some people can enjoy a story for what it could be, ignoring the mess that it is. They don't make good betas.

I agree with the advice to find more good betas who aren't afraid to tell you what they really think needs to be fixed.

And as for being able to edit on your own, it's kind of something that takes practice. Look at what this guy told you, maybe start with one specific passage, and ask yourself if there are others similar to it in later chapters. If infodumping is one of your bigger problems, then take a look at anyplace where you have giant paragraphs, or anywhere you're conveying information, even if it's dialogue. Ask yourself questions like: is this (or all of this) necessary? Could it be trickled in more slowly? etc.
You have to use your head, not your heart, when you're editing. Because of course you love your story. You wrote it!

I would also suggest changing the Format. For instance, if its printed out, then try reading it on the computer screen again, and vice versa. A lot of times, seeing the MS in a different medium will make certain things jump out at you. You could even try copying parts by hand, since writing anything by hand tends to involve more brain-involvement (At least for me). Another great tool is highlighters. Use them to highlight uncertain passages, and then concentrate on those.

I just want to say kudos to you for wanting to learn how to do this on your own. Way too many people come to AW and ask if someone else would be willing to do it for them. (Or if they should pay someone to do it!)

You're really doing yourself a huge favor by teaching yourself, and your writing will be much better in the long run.

My personal suggestion is to start working on another project with this guy's critiques in mind. Try to write something (maybe a short story) that shows rather than tells; doesn't infodump; etc. Find someone who will critique it for these elements. Once you feel like you've got it down, revisit your novel. Going back to it with a fresh mind will, I suspect, be a huge eye-opener. Even if you love the story, you'll start to see things you could improve.

JoNightshade said:

I just want to say kudos to you for wanting to learn how to do this on your own. Way too many people come to AW and ask if someone else would be willing to do it for them. (Or if they should pay someone to do it!)

You're really doing yourself a huge favor by teaching yourself, and your writing will be much better in the long run.

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QFT

Anyway, definitely look over the examples your friend gave you in your own writing, but also look at books you really like and try to see if you can find instances of info-dumping and showing versus telling. The better you get at recognizing it in any writing, the better you'll get at recognizing it in your own.

Also, if you haven't read any books on writing yet, there are a few good ones that talk about the problems you listed that you can find at most libraries. I recommend Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott and Writing Fiction by Janet Burroway. Not that you shouldn't keep asking other writers about these things, because they'll help you with your actual manuscript, but books about writing can help you learn to recognize the problems he pointed out to you in your own writing. At least, they helped me. Good luck, and keep on writing.

Do critiques. This will help you learn the things you feel you're missing. I've had a number of times where I saw an issue in someone else's work and then realized I was doing the same thing.

Believe it or not, editing others' work is a really great way to hone your self-editing skills. I suggest you find another writer or two for whom you can beta read, and spend a couple of weeks doing that. Then tackle your ms again.

This happens a lot -- I know there are many times I can't see my own writerly tics-
I will agree that editing other's work really does help you to see these things-
often we are quite attached to our own words but when we see the problem in another's writing it's obvious-
It is a life long process...

I think it's because we have a hard time getting an objective viewpoint. My first couple of times I read through, I had a hard time with it as well, but the more I've done it the more I'm able to separate myself from the work and look at it fresh.

I also agree with printing it out. Something that helped me early on when I was fixing specific things was to put my work in a notebook and to stick a piece of paper on the cover, and then write down what I wanted to accomplish in that particular reading. It might have only been a couple of things, but I would write it down. For instance, "Take out all of the, "For a moments." Or "Check for "that." (I have a tendency to use "that" way more than necessary.) I know those are really specific, but having it written down there helped me to see it and made it stand out, and then I went through and worked to take it all out (btw, it doesn't all work the first try).

For something like showing not telling, that might be a bit harder, but if there's a certain phrasing you tend to use when you tell, you can look for that, or you can try reading through and with each sentence or paragraph ask yourself, "Is there a better way to say this?" It sounds really um...taihen. What's the English for that? Oh geez...you can probably get it from the context. But yeah, the main point is to get yourself thinking about it in an objective way, and once you start doing it it gets much easier and you'll start to see things more automatically.

Another option would be to print out what he gave you to change, and look at each specific change and why it worked, then look at the next section and hold it up next to what he gave you. Try to anticipate where he would have found new spots to change based on the comparison.

Hope this helps some. Editing isn't easy, that's for sure.

My best friend (a textual scholar) went through the first eight chapters of my first novel. I insisted on the red pen. By the time she was done, it looked like someone had beaten my MS with a lead pipe and left it to bleed out in the gutter. To this day, I thank her, because I have become a much more careful writer. Now, I print out my MS and go to it with the red pen myself, as well as sending it to trusted betas. I also strongly suggest reading it aloud. It's a good way to find errors you may have missed.

I think it's a little more comprehensive than a set of tips, though when you find ones that work magic for you keep them in your toolbox (the word AWers seem to use a bit).

The thing is editing should be second-nature, IMO, by the time you're expecting your book to be published and invested in and payed for. It isn't a separate action, to me, but rather part of the larger process of writing.

The more you learn, the more you practice and challenge yourself, and read (oh yes, read) the more you will learn intuitively to write correctly and compellingly. So, there are tips and tricks (reading out loud is a good one), but ultimately a good foundation in grammar and building a comprehensive understanding of the inner workings of fiction will allow you to edit confidently and more efficiently, without getting stuck so often.

In other words, the tips rely on your willingness to build a foundation to use them.

Libbie said:

Believe it or not, editing others' work is a really great way to hone your self-editing skills. I suggest you find another writer or two for whom you can beta read, and spend a couple of weeks doing that. Then tackle your ms again.

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This, too. This is great advice. SYW has plenty of stories to practice on

Something that helped me to my surprise, is to put my MS in a drawer for a month and work aggressively on something else during that time. This drove my MS from my mind, and when the month was up, I was able to see it with fresh eyes. That plus everything I learned from working on the other project did wonders for me.

Melenka said:

I also strongly suggest reading it aloud. It's a good way to find errors you may have missed.

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That would be my best advice too. If it's a pleasure to read aloud and makes you feel like you missed your calling as a fine-voices thespian, it's probably good. If it makes you embarrassed that people might be listening, or makes you cringe into your boots there's something wrong. At least this is are the emotions I experience when reading out my own work

Oh my dear God, you have NO idea how much I sympathize! I am trying desperately right now to do the same thing:

I don't have much advice, but the best I have so far is to actually take the time to be a beta reader for someone else. I took a break from my MS and am reading two other WIPs for people I met on here, and I found myself picking them apart and leaving comments like "showing not telling."

Now, my WIP still has issues. Lots of them. I don't even know all of them. But, I feel confident I wouldn't have found the mistakes I did without learning how to look for them. If someone hadn't drilled into my head "showing not telling" in the SYW forum, then I wouldn't have known to look for it as a Beta for someone else. I've been trying VERY hard to take those things I've learned and apply them to other pieces, because for some reason when I look at my own project, everything goes out the window.

Good luck!!! Please PM me if there's a magic key which unlocks the secret for you, because I've tried everything above... and Betaing (for someone else) is the only way I've made progress thus-far.

Having others critique your work and critiquing theirs as well is, I agree, an excellent way to learn how to edit and revise. But there is one potential problem: your critiquers can lead you down the wrong path if they are at or below your own level of ability. The trick is to find people who write well and get their input. (It's a trick because most of the time, very good writers want to be critiquing the work of other very good writers.)

I agree that reading a lot is important too. Read the genre you want to write. Not 5-10 books, but, well, there is no number. Never stop reading.

Be patient with yourself, though. Confidence comes slowly, but it will come.

AlishaS said:

None of the above really, is was more info dumping, showing not telling and how to make a few of things I said sound better with tips on how to show.

The grammer, spelling and such is not where I have the problem it is just making things flow really good I guess. But when I read it, even out loud I'm like "whoa this novel is awesome" and I don't see what other's might think are problems lol

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Read it aloud, or even better, get someone else to read it aloud. Then you can hear how your book sounds and from the person's voice you can tell if there's a bit they don't like, or find cheesy.
Forget that your book is about the amazing fight between A and B for the love of C or whatever it's about. No one will ever know what it's about and how awesome it is until you've edited it!

If there's a small section where you're wondering 'Could I write this better?', get a blank piece of paper/new document and write a new scene revealing that information without ever referring to your first version. Then compare the two. What bits work and what bits don't?

ORION said:

This happens a lot -- I know there are many times I can't see my own writerly tics-
I will agree that editing other's work really does help you to see these things-
often we are quite attached to our own words but when we see the problem in another's writing it's obvious-
It is a life long process...

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Bolding is mine....
Beta reading for others helped me immensely too! I highly recommend you beta read for others on the board or try your hand at critique in the SYW forum.

Neversage said:

Something that helped me to my surprise, is to put my MS in a drawer for a month and work aggressively on something else during that time. This drove my MS from my mind, and when the month was up, I was able to see it with fresh eyes. That plus everything I learned from working on the other project did wonders for me.

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Another excellent tip...sometimes you just have to take a step back--whether it's a week or a month. When you revisit the MS you'll find you have a new perspective (and will read with 'fresh eyes' as Neversage stated)!

Neversage: Love the avatar/banner!

I find changing fonts amazingly helpful (a tip given to me by an editor over at Baen's actually). You wouldn't think it would make a difference but my brain seems to think it's no longer something that I wrote--or something like that. Anyway, I don't find the set it in a drawer works well for me. Maybe I'm still too attached to it, but using a text reader while reading it in a different font seems to do the trick for me.

It may be that different things work for different people.