Need a sniper rifle to fit my luggage.

Griesmeel · Dec 2, 2009

Hi all,

Just to get a detail straight:
I need to pack a reasonable sniper rifle in a medium sized suitcase, say 40 x 50 cm on the inside giving me a diagonal of 64 cm (15.9 x 23.8, 25.5 dia in inches). The barrel will obviously be the longest so that will be about 60 cm long. There is no rush for the sniper in question so assembly can be done at leasure. It is a tool so: no fancy limited editions or high end customization needed.
The suitcase and weapon are not important to the plot so if anyone knows anything that is slightly larger, no problem. I would like a bit of detail if you have it at the ready but if I have a specific type of rifle I can Google from there on in.

Thanks!

Chase · Dec 2, 2009

Any rifle – plus several handguns designed to fire rifle cartridges and outfitted with a telescope – can function as a sniper’s rifle. To select cartridge and caliber, range is the criterion.

For shorter ranges, several "take-down" .22 Long Rifle guns are available at any sporting goods store. The URL to view the Marlin Papoose and the AR-7. They fold to only 16 1/2 inches:

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/selfloading/70PSS.asp

For longer ranges, an example of one of the many take-down rifles is the .30 caliber HS Precision rifle. Its disassembled length is 23 1/2 inches:

http://www.ketmer.com/hsp/rifles/tactical/ttd/index.htm

I hope this information helps some.

Chase

Summonere · Dec 2, 2009

There are lots of rifles that would potentially fit the bill, but a few more details about the job in question would help in picking one.

What's the range to target? Will there be multiple targets? Will the shooter ditch the rifle immediately after firing, or will he need to take it with him? Does your shooter need something simple, generic, disposable, with useful accuracy to 100 yards, or does he need something that'll stretch out to about 1,000? Is he looking to make "area" shots (torso) or does he need pin-point accuracy? Will he be shooting an exposed target, or will he need to penetrate barriers of some sort (auto glass, for instance)?

If you Google "takedown rifles" you'll find lots of samples.

Maryn · Dec 2, 2009

If the work is set in the present day, that suitcase isn't going on board any plane in the US and many other parts of the world, even as checked baggage.

A suitcase means travel, as well as hiding the rifle. May I recommend a car or AmTrak?

Maryn, with one more reason to dislike flying

Griesmeel · Dec 2, 2009

Thanks!

I learned the term "takedown rifle" now, that will Google a bit easier. The reminder that any ranged weapon will do for sniping is useful too. I did come across that principle a long time ago but forgot. I guess a proper catapult will fit the bill in the right situation.

At the moment it looks like it will be a soft target, about 600 meters away. Upping the range for the weapon to close to a kilometre would be convenient, I doubt that a wetworks pro would take tools and use them at the outermost limit given the choice. I think the weapon will be most likely discarded right after the kill.

The suitcase actually came from the parcel that was picked up (at a postoffice mind you

) by my field agent, described as "a parcel about as big as a medium sized suitcase". When she unwraps it I found it worked for me to casually mention it contained a medium sized suitcase.

Thanks so far, I'm more and more happy to have come across this forum.

Richard White · Dec 2, 2009

I wonder if the Dragonov SVD breaks down like that. For years, that was the classic "Cold War" sniper rifle. http://www.dragunov.net/

I'm pretty sure the Steyr AUG does since it handles multiple barrels depending on the mission. (Carbine, rifle, light machine gun) http://www.steyr-aug.com/

Just another couple of options if you want something "exotic"

icerose · Dec 2, 2009

Griesmeel said:
Thanks!

I learned the term "takedown rifle" now, that will Google a bit easier. The reminder that any ranged weapon will do for sniping is useful too. I did come across that principle a long time ago but forgot. I guess a proper catapult will fit the bill in the right situation.

At the moment it looks like it will be a soft target, about 600 meters away. Upping the range for the weapon to close to a kilometre would be convenient, I doubt that a wetworks pro would take tools and use them at the outermost limit given the choice. I think the weapon will be most likely discarded right after the kill.

The suitcase actually came from the parcel that was picked up (at a postoffice mind you ) by my field agent, described as "a parcel about as big as a medium sized suitcase". When she unwraps it I found it worked for me to casually mention it contained a medium sized suitcase.

Thanks so far, I'm more and more happy to have come across this forum.

I would suggest instead a bank safe deposit or locker. At the post office in order to mail something you now have to pack the box or container in front of a postal employee. They do not ship firearms via mail anymore, they have to go to a liscensed firearms dealer.

Also guns can and do break down for cleaning and changing out parts. Given your character is an assasin or what not he'll know how to handle the ins and outs of a gun.

The longest piece will then be your barrel. The further away your target, the longer the barrel you need for accuracy, the shorter the barrel the quicker your accuracy degrades.

For example 25" barrel is really pushing it for the 600 yard range and you need an extremely good shooter to hit that with that length of a barrel.

The scope that goes to the gun will probably be at the better end of 20 grand, the scope will be the gun's most expensive piece.

Griesmeel · Dec 2, 2009

Seems I need to do some homework on delivery.

In any case, the job is in Spain. Mexican drug cartel type in hiding, you know, the kind that really deserves it. I will have to look into some of the restrictions that different postal services have here in Europe but that should be doable. However I can take some creative liberty with a big intelligence service behind the job on that part. If need be she will just contact her contact.

If 25" is pushing it for 600 meters I may have to reconsider the scene a bit.

I like the Dragunov option for estetics. looks like the barrel is a bit too long but that's easily solved. Wikipedia states it's effective range between 800 and 1300 meters, aparently with a 24.4" barrel.

It will also give me the option of blaming the Russian Mafia, or just skip that cliche altogether.... probably better.

Chase · Dec 2, 2009

icerose said:
The longest piece will then be your barrel. The further away your target, the longer the barrel you need for accuracy, the shorter the barrel the quicker your accuracy degrades.

Good general advice up to a point. Not to start a flaming war, but the "conventional wisdom" that barrel length improves accuracy at farther distances is a myth that dies hard.

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

The real deal for distance is a barrel length allowing all burning powder to build to maximum push. All other factors being equal, mating burn rate with barrel length turns out to produce better accuracy than mere "longer is better." Long distance shooters have know this for many years (long before SWAT teams) to work up combinations of components to make tack-drivers to die for.

Maryn · Dec 2, 2009

icerose said:
At the post office in order to mail something you now have to pack the box or container in front of a postal employee.

Say what? I send sealed packages fairly often. Perhaps it's a spot-check of some sort, where the sender must be willing to unpack and repack, but I've never been asked to pack the box in front of a postal employee.

Maryn, doubting icerose looks all that dangerous she'd send red flags waving

Summonere · Dec 2, 2009

How about giving your shooter an Arms Tech TTR-700 Tactical Take Down Rifle? Taken down, it fits in something resembling a briefcase or computer case (which seems to fit your box idea), fires .308, offers a 17-inch barrel for up to 600 yard shooting, or a 24-inch barrel for 800 to 1000 yard shots.

Mfg. Site and photos:
http://www.armstechltd.com/products.php?id=ttr-700_rifle

Additional photos:
http://www.cabelas.com/gun-inventory---dundee---fine-rifle---1511442-remttr700-dun.shtml

Summonere · Dec 2, 2009

Maryn said:
If the work is set in the present day, that suitcase isn't going on board any plane in the US and many other parts of the world, even as checked baggage.

A suitcase means travel, as well as hiding the rifle. May I recommend a car or AmTrak?

Maryn, with one more reason to dislike flying

Actually, you can fly with firearms as part of your checked baggage. TSA regulations here:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

Individual airlines, though, have their own rules as well, as do countries outside the U.S.

(And flying is safe. Perfectly safe. Or so I'm told...

)

Summonere · Dec 2, 2009

icerose said:
...guns can and do break down for cleaning and changing out parts. Given your character is an assasin or what not he'll know how to handle the ins and outs of a gun.

The Navy Mk12 Special Purpose Rifle is expected to be effective out to 600 yards (about 550 meters), and it sports an 18-inch barrel. Taking the rifle apart (separating the upper and lower), means that the longest piece, barrel plus upper, should run about-ish 28 inches, which is pretty close to the cited box's diagonal dimension. Thus yours is not a bad idea.

icerose said:
The longest piece will then be your barrel. The further away your target, the longer the barrel you need for accuracy, the shorter the barrel the quicker your accuracy degrades.

For example 25" barrel is really pushing it for the 600 yard range and you need an extremely good shooter to hit that with that length of a barrel.

The scope that goes to the gun will probably be at the better end of 20 grand, the scope will be the gun's most expensive piece.

Chase already mentioned the barrel thing, but I'll add to it anyway with these tids'n'bits, in case anyone's curious.

A 25-inch barrel will be fine for 600 meters. The Marine Corps M40 rifle, for instance, sports a 24-inch barrel and is expected to prove useful out to 800 meters (the updated version of that rifle, the M40A3, is expected to deliver useful accuracy to 1000 yards, or about 915 meters). The Unertl 10x scope the Marines used to use on the M40 has been replaced by the Schmidt & Bender 3–12× 50 Police Marksman II LP rifle scope, which goes for about $3,000.00, though you can certainly get adequate to good optics for a third of that price (and less, if you don't mind that broad category “adequate”).

Griesmeel · Dec 3, 2009

Thank some more to all!

The Dragunov is definitely out, looks like the barrel doesn't detach from the frame and stock. Would be a bit of a problem having that stick out of a suitcase checking into the hotel.
"So, what brings you here?"
"Birdwatching."

I was looking around and came across the Blaser LRS2 or Tactical 2. It would probably fit a slightly bigger suicase but then the shot would be too easy for a good sniper. At the moment the scene stands with a bodyguard having a stroll around the sniper's position. With the Blaser she could set up so far away that he'd have to be on a bike.

Can anyone give me some pointers on the Steyr AUG? Would a really good marksman be able to stretch to 600-700 metres? Would that need customization (I think so)?

I could viably go with Chase's link on changing the burn rate, just specialized ammunition would be plausible enough. Love that article.
Not to disagree with Icerose, I'm surely not knowledgable enough with guns to do so but the science seems sound to me and for writing's sake it gives me a nice loophole.

With all this I might end up writing a sniper into the story. Just don't tell my mum I've been studying guns for days now.

Duncan J Macdonald · Dec 3, 2009

Griesmeel said:
Thank some more to all!

The Dragunov is definitely out, looks like the barrel doesn't detach from the frame and stock. Would be a bit of a problem having that stick out of a suitcase checking into the hotel.
"So, what brings you here?"
"Birdwatching."

As far as shipping goes, have your *Insert Imaginary SpecOps Agency Here* deliver the weapon in a cased set of golf clubs.

Or, have a moonlight walk on the nearest beach, where, at precisely 23 seconds after local midnight, a black rubber dinghy lands and an operative dressed in black (including the balaclava) hands your intrepid hero the sniper weapon of choice. No pesky International Postal regulations to get in the way.

icerose · Dec 3, 2009

Chase said:
Good general advice up to a point. Not to start a flaming war, but the "conventional wisdom" that barrel length improves accuracy at farther distances is a myth that dies hard.

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

The real deal for distance is a barrel length allowing all burning powder to build to maximum push. All other factors being equal, mating burn rate with barrel length turns out to produce better accuracy than mere "longer is better." Long distance shooters have know this for many years (long before SWAT teams) to work up combinations of components to make tack-drivers to die for.

Ah, I was talking about standard ammunition you can get at your local store. That's a very good article. I should have been more specific.

As for the post office, it's how it is in my little town and it's recent too. Since 9/11 they've been adding all kinds of weird things. Even publishers and agents have complained about this and most now state that the manuscript will not be returned anymore due to this. Of course this is strictly speaking of the US.

hammerklavier · Dec 3, 2009

Why does it need to be in a suitcase, how about in a gun case?

The ranges you are talking about require a lot of gun... although, if you don't want a big .300 or .338 cal, I suggest you look at 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm. Those three, especially 6.5mm (.260 or .264) are known for long, narrow bullets which translate into a very high ballistic coefficent, which means they retain their velocity better and are hence superior long range weapons in a somewhat smaller package.

Griesmeel · Dec 4, 2009

Thanks to all of you!

I think I have my facts staight now.
I'll give her the Blaser LRS2 with .300, apart from handling the distance it has an interesting look. As she is an American agent prudence requires that not too many details point to that fact. Hence a European manufactured gun. The bodyguard will either have to take up mountainbiking or I'll make my shooter move location because of him. She'll end up some 900 metres away now, that'll profile her as a good shot I imagine.

As far as the package goes, I need it to be inconspicious as the shooter stands out in a crowd all the time. If she was standing out as well as being seen with something possibly containing a rifle that would complicate things. Picking a European weapon will make it easier to transport too. If the weapon is within the EU it can plausably be moved on the passenger seat of a car. Trust me, those borders are open.
Me and my girlfriend have sent fairly large packages all over Europe. Nobody ever asked to witness packing those. However, I cannot say at all if they x-ray. If they do they would probably scan the 15 kilo and over category (not just the gun in there of course). I'll give that some thought, when in doubt: the old school two-identical-suitcases-switch-at-coffeeshop will do.

I am now definitely considering writing a sniper into the novel, one even better at it than the one I'm writing in now. Any tidbits, anecdotes and slaps on the wrist will be very much appreciated.

So long!

Nivarion · Dec 4, 2009

One thing that's good to know, if you don't already, is that the scope needs to be adjusted at longer distances. It takes a little math before you can make a long shot like that.

First you have to adjust your scope for the wind, then for the rotation of the earth (I'm not joking) and then you have to adjust for gravity.

And then at this point you need to know the travel speed of your projectile. If its only 300 MPS your going to have to take your shot at where he'll be in 2.5 seconds.

Not to say it cant be done. Snipers do it all the time, just a thing or two to mention for ya.

hammerklavier · Dec 4, 2009

A good scope will have "mil-dots" to adjust for wind and bullet drop "instantly" provided the shooter has the training to know which dots to use.

The 6.5x55mm is very popular in Europe

benbradley · Dec 4, 2009

hammerklavier said:
Why does it need to be in a suitcase, how about in a gun case?

Or for something REALLY scary, a banjo case!

icerose · Dec 4, 2009

A range finder would probably be very useful. They tell the sniper how far and all the important information, wind velocety, speed the target is traveling and what not. There are some really neat tools for that. Just another thing to think about. The sniper would be able to use it himself if he needs to be alone.

ETA: Here's a pretty good article on it. http://www.snipercentral.com/leicalrf1200.htm

Need a sniper rifle to fit my luggage.

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