Interesting Question (Really Short, For Balance :-))

It's an interesting premise, especially since we'd screw it up every time. No man can truly put into words what he wants anymore than a woman can tell him what she wants. It's a recipe for disaster. I'd love to read it.

As a bride, I'd be upset to have my life depend on someone else's life, but if they are automatically madly in love with the person who created them, I guess they wouldn't want to outlive their spouse. As a reader I like arranged marriage and soulmate stories but I'd question what sort of memories and skills such a bride would be 'born' with, because the competence of the average adult is built on millions of memories and skills learned throughout childhood. An adult body with a literally blank mind would probably be like a baby, totally unable to care for themselves or talk. I think the solution that would make the most sense is giving the bride a copy of the creator's mind, modified slightly as specified by the spell. Or the second-best solution would be if they were copied from any human and then had permanent amnesia on top of that, that way they would have basic skills but no specific memories.

The first thing that popped into my head when I read the question was Karen, Plankton's robot wife from Spongebob Squarepants. She's an awesome nitpicky shrew of a wife that he created, bakes holographic lasagna for dinner, and she looks like a tv screen.

Okay, for a real answer to your question I'd probably have some major identity issues. I mean, you know that you are a sentient being, because you think. But you're not quite the same as the other sentient beings around you who created you, that you presumably resemble, and that you were made to interact with.

As to how accepting I'd be of my fate, and how intertwined it is with my creator/spouse, that would probably depend a lot on the personality traits he picked for me. If he designed me to be demure, quiet, and compliant I'd likely just accept it. If he designed me to be exuberant, willful, and free thinking it would be another matter entirely.

You know what might be helpful, is to chat with an AI bot for a while and interview it. It sounds very bizarre, but honestly, they do seem to learn from conversations they have with people. It's fun to confuse them with roundabout logic and once in a while they will come up and say something downright freaky.

Aww no fair! The guy can't make himself into a bride?

Honestly, as I think more about this, I would probably screw it up like my neighbor in KC ElMontague posted. Though if I knew she would always be there, I'd put the best into her that I could possibly muster. Brains, beauty, ornery streak, maybe even a little nerdy like I am. If there was a chance she would run off and leave me, I would be heartbroken after putting all that effort into making a perfect woman from head to toe.

I guess the best thing would be to find the balance. If I made her too pretty, some other guy would find a way to run off with her. If I make her too smart, she'll find a way to leave me on her own. If I make her with lead in her feet, she might not be able to swim or drive, but she wouldn't run too fast.

You've got almost total independance; you can do basically anything you want (or not). The only major limitations are: 1. You're going to stay near (meaning within a reasonable traveling distance) of your husband

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You and I obviously have a very different idea of "almost total independance".... Freedom of movement seems to be kind of a big deal. (You could however argue, that "reasonable travelling distance" in a globalized world basically means anywhere on the planet anyway. In this case I would instantly relocate to another continent in order to get as far away as possible from this creep who created me. "Designing your own bride" = epitome of creepiness).

Also, the mere fact that I obviously can't choose whom to marry in such a set-up would be a bit of an issue...

(And I die when he dies? What the fuck? So every time he risks his life, he risks mine too? So if my life's dear to me, I better babysit him and keep him safe? What if the moron gets drunk and has an accident? God, I would be pissed! Maybe I wouldn't relocate to another continent after all...I'd make damn sure that guy stays on the straight and narrow! No more hang-gliding and scuba diving and excessive drinking for you, Mister. An no more steaks and hamburgers and stuff like that, don't want you to die of a heart attack....)

But even without these, in my opinion rather substantial, limitations on my freedom, I would probably suffer from a severe crisis of identity. What part of me is my true self, the essence of my being, when every one of my significant features was planned by someone else to fit his own purposes? How can I develop my own subjectivity if my personality has been completley defined in relation to someone else? Can I even have such a thing as free will under such conditions? Sure, on the surface it looks as if I could do what I liked, but does this really mean anything, considering that I was programmed to like what I like by someone else. Are these still my dreams that I follow, when they have been instilled in me by someone else?

These are, by the way, questions relevant to all of us, as "free will" is a very questionable concept. But in the absence of any undeniable evidence of a creator with a definite agenda, there is at least some illusion of it. Religions have always grappled with the problem of combining their notions of fate and predetermination with the existence of a free will and done some interesting intellectual acrobatics to achieve this. You might want to take a look into the matter, if you want to deal with this topic.

Because this is the important point I'm trying to make: We are entering the realm of religion here. If I am faced with the undeniable presence of my creator, I basically only have two opitons: worship him or defy him. There is an intrinsic, inevitable hierarchy and assymmetry in our interactions, that is probably impossible to overcome. Sure, I can develop in directions maybe unplanned by him, but there might be a limit to that and he was the one who limited my potential. (The bride might decide that one of the random features he didn't care about in the conception phase is the essence of her being, focus solely on that and neglect everything else. That might be a good step towards achieving some semblance of independance, but can one really completley redefine themselves?)

I think it's a truly fascinating issue and would love to read about it. I would be however severely disappointed if the novel doesn't take the opportunity to explore all the questions of free will and gender construction that are inextricably tied in with such a set-up. It's clearly a topic that doesn't lend itself for escapist fluff.

You can find an interesting execution of such a premise in Joss Whedon's Dollhouse [Spoiler alert], particularly with regard to the relationship between Topher, the resident (mad?) scientiest and Whiskey, one of his creations. In this case, he has explicitely programmed her to dislike him.

And please, please, don't try to tweak this into a "romantic" subplot.

This is the worst-possible set-up for romance. Love's value hinges heavily on the notion of free will. Part of the thrill of being loved is being chosen. If there's no choice, what's the point?

If he programs her to love him, he won't find much satisfaction in their love (beyond the purely sexual aspect).

If he doesn't program her to love him, she still has reason to assume he did. He has such a big incentive to lie about this, why should she trust him? How could she ever know she truly loves him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunandshadow
I think the solution that would make the most sense is giving the bride a copy of the creator's mind, modified slightly as specified by the spell.

It's a bit more involved, but that's basically how it works, yes. That's why Lauren and Mitch have such similar personalities.

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That reminds me of another thing that always creeps me out about this kind of constellation (apart from the icky power imbalance and the incestuous vibes): It's so extremely narcissistic - a symptom for that kind of person unable to truly engage with something other than themselves. Deeply disturbing.

But I guess, you could also just call it weird.

but they do care for each other.

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Of course she does. She dies, when he dies. if she cares about her own life, she has no choice to not care about his. it just doesn't mean anything.

Yet it's not completley impossible that such a relationship might be quite functional to a certain degree. Many people do not really want free will, just the illusion of it. And many people do not really want love, just the illusion of if. Because love and free will are actually huge liabilities and can make you quite miserable. We might be better of with the illusions anyway. So yeah, it might really work on some level.

This whole discussion reminds me of Japanese anime--not sure if you're a fan, Black Magic, but the idea of "programmable" or "made-to-order" brides is a theme that seems to crop up a lot in Japanese media. You've got ordinary guys who somehow end up with "perfect" (or sometimes imperfect) artificial girls who are devoted to him, imprint on him, made specifically for him, magically bound to him, etc. The best anime & manga of this type really explore some interesting directions with this, though admittedly a depressingly large number don't explore it at all, just have it as a premise for wacky romantic hijinx and maybe some fetish fuel (Chobits, I'm looking at you).

Admittedly, I've seen so many shallow non-treatments of this topic that I am particularly curious about any story that actually explores this in-depth (Dollhouse, for example, in the aforementioned relationship). I mean, when you get right down to it, a blank acceptance of this kind of uneven relationship can be pretty creepy, especially since upon her 'birth', a made-to-order bride has no control over what man ends up as her 'husband' for life.

Yes, Japanese Anime! How could I miss that connection - that's really where that kind of stuff is ubiquituos.

sunandshadow said:

As a bride, I'd be upset to have my life depend on someone else's life, but if they are automatically madly in love with the person who created them, I guess they wouldn't want to outlive their spouse. As a reader I like arranged marriage and soulmate stories but I'd question what sort of memories and skills such a bride would be 'born' with, because the competence of the average adult is built on millions of memories and skills learned throughout childhood. An adult body with a literally blank mind would probably be like a baby, totally unable to care for themselves or talk. I think the solution that would make the most sense is giving the bride a copy of the creator's mind, modified slightly as specified by the spell. Or the second-best solution would be if they were copied from any human and then had permanent amnesia on top of that, that way they would have basic skills but no specific memories.

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Autogynephilia
Most clinical psychologists say this is the main reason men get sex changes in the middle of their life (mid-life crisis?).

It does sound like a potential case of autogynephilia, except he creates a female version of himself instead turning himself into a woman.

I just don't see the female as being independent, knowing that her creator is right there in front of her. If God was standing over us every second of the day I'm sure more of us would be well behaved. Plus, the guy will believe she owes certain favors to him since he put so much time and energy into creating her. Yeah, it's selfish, but that's what it means to be human.

defcon6000 said:

I just don't see the female as being independent, knowing that her creator is right there in front of her. If God was standing over us every second of the day I'm sure more of us would be well behaved.

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Agree. The more I think about it the more convinced I am that the expression "almost total independance" is a bit of a joke in this context.

Lauren is highly concerned because, now that Mitch's time serving the Order (don't worry about that; it's a long explaination) is almost up, he won't have any more use for her. So, the question in her mind is: Is he going to just undo her?

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It was not mentioned in the original post, but we have now learned that the poor woman thinks for the longest time that her "husband" can undo her at any given moment, if he has no longer "any use" for her. Clearly, she's going to make herself useful.... Would I ever think of rejecting a man who has the power to "undo" me without much of a hassle? - Not if he has programmed me with the faintest hint of an instinct for self-preseveration, no. And this guy has friends? (Seriously, is that supposed to be one of the good guys? Because that might be a bit hard to pull off)

She might tell herself that she actually "cares for him" in order to make it easier on herself (also, if you have to fake it, you sometimes tend to eventually make it, even if it's not what you wanted at the beginning, because that's just how we work - that's the way we can programm ourselves), but that's not love, that's Stockholm Syndrome.

Yeah, this concept's kinda creepy. If I were the bride and know that he created me, could destroy me at any time and that I would die when he did, I'd be more pissed than pleased. I definitely wouldn't trust him.

I don't really see how she could care for him, deep down inside, without Stockholm Syndrome.

This kind of reminds me of the Bride of Frankenstein with Sting and Jennifer Beale. It came out in the 80's. I enjoyed it because it did a very good cover of this concept.

BlackMagic528 said:

Anyway, Mitch's stunned that she even thinks he'd consider undoing her,

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So Mitch is either rather disingenuous or not very smart, because that's actually a pretty plausible assumption on her part in such a situation.

BlackMagic528 said:

Note: She's not afraid of him; it's the potential answer to her question that she's scared of.

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Semantics. This is a purely academical distinction without any practical implications. (When I walk home at night down a lonely alley and notice that I have been followed by a hooded figure for several blocks now, it's really not the hooded figure I'm scared of - it's the fact that he might be going to rob or/and rape me.)

Remember, as long as she's around, he's just as stuck with her as she is with him.

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Does that mean that if she dies, he will die too? So when he is contemplating his option to undo her, he is actually contemplating suicide? Because otherwise this is nothing but an empty claim. He is not remotedly as stuck with her as she is with him.

BlackMagic528 said:

That was just an example of how she's not completely at his mercy. Frankly, Lauren can be pretty ballsy when she gets pissed off.

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Of course she is (completley at his mercy. Ballsy? Only on a very superficial level). All her power on him rests on the fact that she has managed to endear herself to him (otherwise he could just laugh her ultimatum off) - not necessarily by being "nice" in the traditional sense, but that's immaterial. He might be a masochist and like a bit of abuse (in fact, if she abuses him, he surely is, because he has programmed her to do that), he might just like the bickering. (The fact remains: it's all about what he likes). But so she can be a bit mean und insult him a little (if this is what gets him off), but she can't really say: Go die in a fire (and mean it). She can insult him and abuse him, but she is not free to completly ignore him =
She cannot defy him in any meaningful way. So she has endeared himself to him, exactly by insulting him and abusing him a little, and the fact that she was basically forced to that in order to secure her continued existence, is what creeps people out.

Now, different people show affection in different ways, and like I said, these two have a rather bizarre relationship, to say the least.

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Yes, affection can be shown in different ways. But there is also pretty substantial difference between real affection and fake affection (and I would place progammed affection without any element of choice squarely in the fake category), but as I said, some people actually prefer the fake variety. It's much less of a hassle.

BlackMagic528 said:

I understood all your points except this one. Pardon me, if it's obvious, but it's early in the morning and my brain really hasn't started functioning yet.

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She can only choose her behavior towards him on a very superficial level. She can choose to be nice or she can choose to be naughty, but she cannot choose to simply ignore him. And when she chooses to be naughty, it doesn't mean any real defiance in the larger scheme of things, because he probably wants her to be naughty. He programmed her to make that choice - it's not really hers. Some guys are into that, and if he weren't, he wouldn't have designed her that way. That's not one of the features any person with a brain would leave to chance. All the superficial freedoms he has left her mean nothing without the freedom to ignore him. The freedom to ignore people is a very essential one. I treasure it highly. (It's the foundation for every relationship based on true equality. Of course I am not free to ignore the police officer who stops me when I drive to fast. That's the entire point of institutionalized authority and hierachies. We can never see eye to eye, if I am not free to ignore you.)

She endears herself to him by giving him attention - that attention might be often negative, but it's still attention - attention she is forced to give him. Because her survival rests on his sympathy. If she doesn't give him a reason to care for her, all her ultimata are useless. And because everybody needs love and his programming has robbed her of the option to get it from anyone else. And that's the problem right there.

Seriously, don't judge Mitch based solely upon this, because I can tell you he had good reason for making Lauren instead of using traditional channels for a wife. He's not a bad guy - a bit intense and strange, but not a bad guy.

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I have to take your word for this (I mean, I cannot expect you to spoil your entire novel here), but I have to admit that I really have a hard time imagining any good reasons for this.

I mean, the only at least partly comprehensible reason I could conceive of was crippling loneliness. That's actually the reason why I questioned the fact that he has friends. Take Topher in Dollhouse for instance. He has no friends. (The people he works with only humor him because of his importance for the operation. Nobody seems to be particularly fond of him in the first season). In the birthday episode, when he programms Sierra to play video games with him, we get so see how starved he is for affection. And that little detail goes a long way to make his character plausible and humanize him. Of course playing god and making yourself the master over someone else's existence is still a questionable thing to do, but people do questionable things when they are desperate. And Topher is obivously desperately lonely.

But your guy, if he has actual friends, why should he be so desperate? He has friends. He does get affection.

If it's just about the sex, why not pony up the cash and pay a proper prostitute? Would be a more elegant solution. (And a lot fairer for everyone involved, because the terms of the arrangement are clear from the start. And the prostitute would not have to spend chapters of your novel agonizing over the possiblity that he "undoes" her, once she has done her job).

I have also considered the possibility that he might need a wife for professional reasons - for instance as part of a cover story, for the sake of formality or something like that. But in this case, why force her to love him? Why not give her the option to do her job and then go on with her life without him? This decision to make her love him benefits nobody but himself. Selfishness is the only plausible motive. It's very human but it doesn't necessarily make him seem like one of the good guys. (It would not be justified, but certainly more forgiveable, if his judgement was clouded by crippling loneliness.....)

I am sorry that my last postings sounded so harsh. I have often had opportunity to observe that people tend to have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to inherent, underlying power structures that favour them. I don't see that as a personal failure of the individual, but as a logical consequence of privilege. We are all privileged in some way or another (white/male/ middle class/ able-bodied/of the dominant religion/ in possession of the power to magically undo others etc.) and we often cannot see the advantages we enjoy.

I just want to point out that the mere fact that you have actually asked about a female perspective (and are willing to engage in a discussion) already sets you miles apart from the crowd.

BlackMagic528 said:

For the guys: How would you feel if it were possible to mystically create yourself a bride (from nothing, aside from mystcal energy)?

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No sale. Real people are wonderful exactly because we can't predict them. They grow us, sometimes in ways we could never grow otherwise. A consumerised mate would be thought of as a drudge, a status-symbol, a sex-toy... to be loved as one loves a car or a career -- as an extension of oneself, not appreciated as another. Since Pygmalion is a popular myth though, I can imagine the idea interesting some readers.

How do you think you'd feel if you were the bride?

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It's an arranged marriage in which your whole reason for existence is to be married. Women throughout history have known this reality but at least they've had at times, their home domain to rule and order as they'd like. A Magic Bride wouldn't even have that. She'd be a chattel. And for all that she might love her owner, that doesn't mean she'd be happy. Or if she were dumb enough to be happy as a chattel, then she'd also be too dumb for many men to respect. As a reader I'd consider that last to be tragic, bordering on pathetic.

Despite possible pitfalls I think there are definitely legs on this premise though, BM... especially as an exploration for how someone born and bound to chattelhood and ruled by emotions not always of her choosing could gain self-determination. I think that might have quite a bit of resonance. (And if you'd ever like to see how controlling love can be, you could consult Stephen King's Misery.)

1st rule of custom bride: Custom bride can not bring harm to her creator.
2nd rule: Custom bride can not allow her creator to be harmed unless this would interfer with rule 1.
3rd rule: Custom bride has to obey creator, unless it would interfer with rule 1 or 2.
Just kidding.


How would I design her. ... Basicly as a woman I would want to be (if I wasn't happy being a man.) and not specificly the woman I would want to be with.
It probably would not be much of a bride...

Bride pops into existence.
Bride: Hi.
Me: Hi.
B: Hey thanks for creating me.
M: No problem. I allways wanted to see, how I'd do as a sexy woman. Oh btw, here are the divorce papers, if I know myself right you probably want them.
B: Pff - as long as you don't get all possessive and call me your bitch, I don't care. But thanks for the offer, this hot body of mine is definitly to much for one person - especially a fat, old, male one.
M: You are welcome. Anyway, at the moment you are bound to stay in the same area as me and will die, should I die. But acording to your specifications, you are quite clever. I bet in time we will find a way to lift this restriction.
B: No problem, better than nonexistence in any case, I guess. I'll just take the flat below yours, than.