A question on the snowflake method

Fredster · Dec 1, 2009

I've just discovered Ingermanson's snowflake method for writing, thanks to another thread on this site, and I'm quite intrigued. For the most part, that's how I write, though I think of my method more in terms of software development ("top down design") because that's what my day job is.

I noticed something unusual in his progression, though. Step 7 instructs the writer to write a proposal for the novel and sell it. Step 10 is where you actually start working on the first draft.

Isn't the conventional wisdom that you shouldn't pitch a novel until it's already written (unless you're Nick Hornsby, I guess) ?

What's your opinion on trying to sell an unwritten novel?

DeadlyAccurate · Dec 1, 2009

Fredster said:
What's your opinion on trying to sell an unwritten novel?

If you're unpublished, your chances are between slim and none. It happens. People win the Powerball lottery, too. I wouldn't bet the retirement account on it happening to you. (Generic you)

Shadow_Ferret · Dec 1, 2009

I think you'd be asking for trouble if you submitted a proposal for an unwritten novel. What if the agent says, "Sure, send me a full?" Do you go, "um, well, you see, I still have to write it."? If there is a Black List of Troublesome Writers that agents pass around, I think your name would be on it for that one.

Calla Lily · Dec 1, 2009

Ingermanson writes for the CBA market. The rules are a little different there. He also writes NF, and of course the rules are different there too. Ain't this fun?

One of the many things I like about the Snowflake is that I can use what works for me and set aside what doesn't.

Maxinquaye · Dec 1, 2009

I think it's only possible in a situation where and agent AND a publisher knows your worth as a writer. If you consistently keep deadlines and deliver on time and produce quality fiction, and have published 6-7 books, then you could possibly do that.

If you're new, no way.

However, this is the method if you're writing non-fiction, but then you have to prove your credentials by providing proof of academic merit; published papers, degrees, and so on. So even with non-fiction, it's a matter of credentials.

katiemac · Dec 1, 2009

I noticed something unusual in his progression, though. Step 7 instructs the writer to write a proposal for the novel and sell it. Step 10 is where you actually start working on the first draft.

Isn't the conventional wisdom that you shouldn't pitch a novel until it's already written (unless you're Nick Hornsby, I guess) ?

What's your opinion on trying to sell an unwritten novel?

Well, I know authors who have pitched a novel without the book written. I think it's risky, and not something I would do or even recommend someone else do. In the end you might be scrambling to write the pages if someone wants to look at it.

But until you're Stephen King or James Patterson (who not too long ago signed an 18-book deal), then you won't be able to sell the book unwritten (talking fiction). Agents will always want to read pages before they sign you, and agents need pages to shop to editors. It's best if the book is done, edited, and as shiny as you can possibly make it before you approach agents. You rarely get second chances.

You can sign a two- or three-book deal with a publisher, however, based off one written manuscript. That's an entirely different animal, though.

Fredster · Dec 1, 2009

Maxinquaye said:
If you consistently keep deadlines and deliver on time and produce quality fiction, and have published 6-7 books, then you could possibly do that.

And therein lies the fun --- if you've published six or seven books, you don't need something like the snowflake method, because presumably you already know how to write a novel.

Maxinquaye · Dec 1, 2009

Fredster said:
And therein lies the fun --- if you've published six or seven books, you don't need something like the snowflake method, because presumably you already know how to write a novel.

No, no, no, NO! You always need a method. It will never change. I've written articles for 20 years. I still need a method. When I'm on the NY Best seller list for the 15th time ( :hooray:

) I'm still going to need a method.

Having said that, I find the snowflake particularly cumbersome to work with. I've tried it, and I got so bogged down in detail, it killed the story for me

Fredster · Dec 1, 2009

Maxinquaye said:
No, no, no, NO! You always need a method. It will never change. I've written articles for 20 years. I still need a method. When I'm on the NY Best seller list for the 15th time ( ) I'm still going to need a method.

Having said that, I find the snowflake particularly cumbersome to work with. I've tried it, and I got so bogged down in detail, it killed the story for me

I think maybe I wasn't clear. Definitely you need a method, I just meant that if you've already published that many books you already have one -- you're not looking for a new one like the snowflake.

Maxinquaye · Dec 1, 2009

Fredster said:
I think maybe I wasn't clear. Definitely you need a method, I just meant that if you've already published that many books you already have one -- you're not looking for a new one like the snowflake.

Heh, I have one now. When I've figured out all the goalposts, I've got about 40 scenes, which is half the a normal sized book. Then it's a matter of connecting the dots, and that's where the art comes in and turns it from a paint by numbers to an actual unique novel.

It works for me. I'm into my second novel with this method now, and the progress is good.

timewaster · Dec 1, 2009

[.

Isn't the conventional wisdom that you shouldn't pitch a novel until it's already written (unless you're Nick Hornsby, I guess) ?

First novel pretty well everyone has to write the whole thing unless you have an existing relationship with a publisher.
I don't think the snowflake method is that helpful for people who work intuitively - I might arrive at a one line summary - after I have written the novel. As a planning technique for me it makes a great sunshade.

Nateskate · Dec 1, 2009

If you're a Ph.D and writing academic material, especially if you have expertise in a unique field where there's a market for that information, then a publisher would pre-authorize the book if you had a previous record of publication.

In a sense, someone in that position (who's time is in great demand) isn't likely to devote the time to write a book like that without a publisher's okay.

timewaster · Dec 1, 2009

Nateskate said:
If you're a Ph.D and writing academic material, especially if you have expertise in a unique field where there's a market for that information, then a publisher would pre-authorize the book if you had a previous record of publication.

In a sense, someone in that position (who's time is in great demand) isn't likely to devote the time to write a book like that without a publisher's okay.

I'm not sure that does help much for novel writing which is what I was talking about

The Lonely One · Dec 1, 2009

Maybe if you're comfortable with the method you should do the step for your own personal story development and not ACTUALLY try to sell the novel.

Jus' a thought

Mr Flibble · Dec 1, 2009

Fredster said:
I think maybe I wasn't clear. Definitely you need a method, I just meant that if you've already published that many books you already have one -- you're not looking for a new one like the snowflake.

Ah but each book may require a different method, because not all stories are equally easy or complicated to write, even for the same author. .

Quote: ( and I can't remember who the heck said it but) I know how to write the novels I have written. I may know how to write the novels I want to write.

bearilou · Dec 1, 2009

I've used the Snowflake Method and feel so far I've had the best success in completing a work. It's kept me on track much better than any other method (and not using any method) has so far.

That said, I think callalily16 hit it right on the head. Not only does Ingermanson write, he also takes a very active (and vocal) approach to the business side of writing and he's done quite a lot on that front in trying to provide specific tools to writers to take control further in their own business of writing.

Maxinquaye · Dec 1, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
Ah but each book may require a different method, because not all stories are equally easy or complicated to write, even for the same author. .

Quote: ( and I can't remember who the heck said it but) I know how to write the novels I have written. I may know how to write the novels I want to write.

I find that it's easier to work when you have a few goal posts in mind, and that you detail them:

1) Setup - where the MC goes around doing his usual things.
2) PP1 - when something happens that really ruins his/her day
3) Middle - when the mc is pissed and sulks about whatever happened, and you keep ruining his day by having him/her in that tree, and throwing rocks at him/her
4) PP2 - when the MC thinks that "By god I've got it!" (where the car chase starts)
5) Endgame - when the MC catches up, and does that hero thing.

If you can figure out those five points in advance, you get a good chunk of the story in advance. Each is between 2-10 scenes, and that's basically half a 80-100k book.

Mr Flibble · Dec 1, 2009

If that works for you, do it.

Each of my books has ended up having a different process. I have to find not just what works for me, but what works for this story too.

Because each book is as individual as each writer. So each needs its own process. They may be vaguely similar, but not the same by any stretch.

That's what works for me.

One day I may even outline and stick to it. Who knows?

However I did find the snowflake method reasonably helpful on my Nano last year. I only did the first few steps ( as if I write an outline, things have changed so much by teh time I get 10k it bears no resemblance and I chuck it) but it did help think of some juicy conflicts I wouldn't ( maybe) have thought of otherwise.

You can use it as much or as little as you need. That's the beauty of it.

Maxinquaye · Dec 1, 2009

Of course. It's always thus. Besides, it gets a little strange to talk about methods. It starts to sound like one is talking about a recipe.

Add water and shake, and you've got a novel in five minutes.

A question on the snowflake method

Fredster

Village idiot

DeadlyAccurate

Absolutely Fazed

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

Calla Lily

On hiatus

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer

katiemac

Five by Five

Fredster

Village idiot

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer

Fredster

Village idiot

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer

timewaster

present

Nateskate

timewaster

present

The Lonely One

Why is a raven like a writing desk?

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

bearilou

DenturePunk writer

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Maxinquaye

That cheeky buggerer