Sisters or sisters???

[mbroadway]

My MG novel is about an orphan in a Catholic orphanage. She lives with two nuns, Sister Rosemary and Sister Carmen.

When I refer to the two of them, do I use a capital "S" as in...

Lilly and the Sisters went to church.

Or do I use a lower case "s" in those cases?

And is it appropriate to say "they went to church"? or do I have to say "they went to mass"?

Thanks.

[Medievalist]

Upper case S.

Here's why:

1. Sister for a nun is a title; titles are Proper Nouns and thus upper cased.
3. Sisters plural is still referring to the Sisters by a title. It's a plural proper noun and thus upper cased.

They went to Mass; Church implies either protestantism or they visited the edifice.

[Chase]

Although many of us raised Catholic were sure we'd go straight to Hell if we didn't capitalize every possible religeous title, it's correct to write:

The pope visited China.

Two priests and seven sisters taught classes at Little Flower Elementary School.

I went to church last Sunday and attended early mass.

[mbroadway]

Thanks for the input. I don't know why I can't find anything about this on New York Style Guide or Chicago Manual of Style. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.

I appreciate your help.

So, would it be correc to say,

Lilly and the Sisters went into town, pulled into the church parking lot, and went to Mass. ???

[mbroadway]

I still don't have a verifiable answer on this. Any more takers?

[Medievalist]

Thanks for the input. I don't know why I can't find anything about this on New York Style Guide or Chicago Manual of Style. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.

I appreciate your help.

So, would it be correc to say,

Lilly and the Sisters went into town, pulled into the church parking lot, and went to Mass. ???

Actually, in this instance, when you aren't naming them -- it's the pair of them as a unit, it would be:

Lilly and the sisters went into town, pulled into the church parking lot, and went to mass.



A dictionary will often be of more help on questions like this; I favor the American Heritage Unabridged, since it includes sensible usage notes.

[Use Her Name]

When a noun is a title, you cap it, when it is used as a generic common noun you do not as Medevalist said above.

Barak Obama, President of the United States (a title)

The President sat next to me at the meeting (a specific president, thus a title)

Many presidents have used signing statements (no title)

Quite a huge list of Capitalization rules exist. I use the US Government Printing Office Manual of Style, and also the A.P. They are usually quite similar and every writer should have a few.

If you don't mind me mentioning, are Rosemary and Carmen the sorts of names nuns would have? I thought they took names of saints or noteables in the church.

[veronie]

When a noun is a title, you cap it, when it is used as a generic common noun you do not as Medevalist said above.

Barak Obama, President of the United States (a title)

The President sat next to me at the meeting (a specific president, thus a title)

Many presidents have used signing statements (no title)

Quite a huge list of Capitalization rules exist. I use the US Government Printing Office Manual of Style, and also the A.P. They are usually quite similar and every writer should have a few.

If you don't mind me mentioning, are Rosemary and Carmen the sorts of names nuns would have? I thought they took names of saints or noteables in the church.

Actually, you capitalize titles when they precede a name -- when they work as part of the name: The senator gave a note to President Barack Obama.

You do not capitalize a title when it is acting separately or as a description following the name: The president sat next to me at the meeting.

You can find the rules for this here (http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp) or in the AP Stylebook under "titles" and "president."

Same rule applies for "sister." Capitalize it before a name: "Sister Agnes Rita." Don't capitalize it when used generically. The sisters were praying in the church. You can find more help in the AP Stylebook under "religious titles" and "sister."

[girlyswot]

If it were me, I'd say 'Lilly and the nuns...'

I went to a Catholic primary school and I don't remember ever calling the nuns 'sisters'. It would be like calling men 'misters'.

[mbroadway]

Thanks to all for the great info.
You've helped tremendously.

[Jamesaritchie]

Go with "nuns." Without the big S on sisters, a bunch of readers are going to be confused.

[Dicentra P]

(As the former Sister P.) It is correct to write Sister P. went into the room and addressed the sisters seated there. When it is a title it is capitalized when it is a noun it is not as you would use Doctor P addressed the doctors in the room.

[Chase]

(As the former Sister P.) It is correct to write Sister P. went into the room and addressed the sisters seated there. When it is a title it is capitalized when it is a noun it is not as you would use Doctor P addressed the doctors in the room.

I'm glad a former nun answered with good advice for writers for US publications and academics. When I was head of the English department at Central Catholic High School, we were assigned some Sisters of Mercy from Ireland. None (sorry) were English teachers, but all assigned some kind of writing in their disciplines and they all wanted to capitalize queen, pastor, king, mother, father, brother, sister, church, mass, pew, cross, et cetera no matter how they were used.

It was a tough fight, and I suffered lots of penquin pecks, but the good sisters were eventually swayed to Americanize their capitalizations -- except for God and Pope. Any form had to be capitalized, as in "the Pope was a Godly man," or the writer was condemned to half an eternity in purgatory.

[Vomaxx]

My dictionary, a purely secular publication, has separate entries for Mass (a Catholic religious celebration) and mass (a quantity of matter).

[Lost World]

I've seen such titles handled differently in different works, sometimes capitalized all the time and sometimes not. The main thing is consistency throughout your work; if you're going to capitalize it once you'd better remember to do it every time.

[Dicentra P]

I'm glad a former nun answered with good advice for writers for US publications and academics. When I was head of the English department at Central Catholic High School, we were assigned some Sisters of Mercy from Ireland. None (sorry) were English teachers, but all assigned some kind of writing in their disciplines and they all wanted to capitalize queen, pastor, king, mother, father, brother, sister, church, mass, pew, cross, et cetera no matter how they were used.

It was a tough fight, and I suffered lots of penquin pecks, but the good sisters were eventually swayed to Americanize their capitalizations -- except for God and Pope. Any form had to be capitalized, as in "the Pope was a Godly man," or the writer was condemned to half an eternity in purgatory.

I will admit that there are many traditionalists who would hold with the all caps rule to the end. If the POV is close to someone like that then it might be appropriate to capitalize as she would.

[Rambutanious]

God and Pope.
I firmly believe in this exact circumstance that a word such as "God" must be capitalised, as it is the definite name given to the Christian/Catholic religious figure (Buddha, Allah and Xenu should all be capitalised, regardless of religious beliefs). If one talks of "God" as a general figure of religion, then one should not capitalise the word.

Correct: I sat between the wooden pews in the sunlit church, asking God to forgive me.
Incorrect: I sat between the wooden pews in the sunlit church, asking god to forgive me.

Correct: There are many religions on our fair planet, each with a god.
Incorrect: There are many religions our on fair planet, each with a God.

It could be argued that the word "pope" should be capitalised in every circumstance as he is seen as the equivalent of God on Earth; however, as an Atheist, I insist it is incorrect to capitalise the title in an isolated situation.

I apologise for my ramblings. :D

[Chase]

I firmly believe in this exact circumstance that a word such as "God" must be capitalised, as it is the definite name given to the Christian/Catholic religious figure (Buddha, Allah and Xenu should all be capitalised, regardless of religious beliefs). If one talks of "God" as a general figure of religion, then one should not capitalise the word.

Correct: I sat between the wooden pews in the sunlit church, asking God to forgive me.
Incorrect: I sat between the wooden pews in the sunlit church, asking god to forgive me.

Correct: There are many religions on our fair planet, each with a god.
Incorrect: There are many religions our our fair planet, each with a God.

It could be argued that the word "pope" should be capitalised in every circumstance as he is seen as the equivalent of God on Earth; however, as an Atheist, I insist it is incorrect to capitalise the title in an isolated situation.

I apologise for my ramblings. :D

All the above ramblings are correct, except capitalizing atheist and earth. An atheist is no more a proper noun than an artist. Our earth and moon are known by the proper nouns Terra and Luna.

[johnnysannie]

If it were me, I'd say 'Lilly and the nuns...'

I went to a Catholic primary school and I don't remember ever calling the nuns 'sisters'. It would be like calling men 'misters'.

That may depend on location and time period; I too went to Catholic school and lived two blocks from the Catholic hospital where I was born....where the working nuns were called "Sisters" by everyone, Catholic or not. In fact, the hospital became nicknamed Sisters Hospital instead of the formal St. Joseph's that was the actual name.

[Rambutanious]

All the above ramblings are correct, except capitalizing atheist and earth. An atheist is no more a proper noun than an artist. Our earth and moon are known by the proper nouns Terra and Luna.
I apologise; I am incorrect in capitalising "atheist" in this instance. I tend to make that mistake often.

I consider "Atheist" to be a religious belief, similar to the Islamic, Christian and Catholic religions (to name a few); it is therefore capitalised when talking of the religion, but (I agree with you) not when stating that "The boy was an atheist." I apologise.

Earth is a planet; it is an important location. "Earth" should be capitalised for this reason. When talking of "earth" as soil, it is not capitalised. We capitalise the names of the other eight (now seven) planets, so there is little reason not to capitalise "Earth".

Correct: The third planet from the sun, Earth, is covered mostly by water.
Incorrect: The third planet from the sun, earth, is covered mostly by water.

Correct: I dug up the earth with my spade.
Incorrect: I dug up the Earth with my spade.

It is the name which we have dubbed our planet, and should therefore be capitalised. :)

[RevisionIsTheKey]

Capitalize both "Sisters" and "Mass." (Which I would use instead of "church" because it is more specific.) Actually, some dictionaries and grammar manuals say "mass" is okay, too. My theory is to go with the one that shows more respect.

[Elias Graves]

Sister Mary
The sisters walked
The Sisters of Mercy...
Mass is an event. Church is a body of people, though it is often confused with a building for some reason.
In my experience, the correct usage on attending Mass is: "We drove to the parish and went to Mass." Catholics generally use the word Church when referring to the Church (note capitalization.) The Catholic Church refers to itself as the Church, which, technically refers to the people who make up the institution. The physical place we go to attend Mass is the parish, the chapel or the cathedral depending upon where you are going.

EG

[Kisatchie]

Sister Mary
...Church is a body of people, though it is often confused with a building for some reason.
...The physical place we go to attend Mass is the parish, the chapel or the cathedral depending upon where you are going.

EG

My American Heritage Dictionary gives the following definition for "church"


A building for public, especially Christian worship.

[Chase]

I consider "Atheist" to be a religious belief, similar to the Islamic, Christian and Catholic religions (to name a few) . . .

I can only suppose people not on earth during the last two thousand years would think Catholics were not Christian.

My theory is to go with the one that shows more respect.

I'm wondering exactly how the capitalization of a noun shows respect? So then the German language, which capitalizes all nouns, is more respectful?


Added edit: It’s not surprising that the generic term for our planet, the earth, would get capitalized by those thinking it’s the name of our world. They often do the same and wrongly capitalize our sun and our moon, even though those orbs also have names from Roman mythology. The sun is Sol. The moon is Luna. The earth nearest the sun is Mercury. Venus orbits next, then our own earth, Terra. Mars comes next with its two moons, Phobos and Demos.

[Elias Graves]

My American Heritage Dictionary gives the following definition for "church"


A building for public, especially Christian worship.


They are incorrect. A church is a collection of believers not a building.
It is a common secular misconception that a church is a building, however the Catholic Church as well as Protestants hold that the Church is comprised of the worshippers.

EG

[Rambutanious]

I can only suppose people not on earth during the last two thousand years would think Catholics were not Christian.

There are many differences; however, I believe Catholicism comes under the umbrella of Christianity. I am not religious and cannot state for sure.


Added edit: It’s not surprising that the generic term for our planet, the earth, would get capitalized by those thinking it’s the name of our world.
The term Terra is rarely used and outdated. The common name given to our planet is Earth -- a location or proper noun -- and should therefore be capitalised.

There's no strict rule on this issue, so whether one chooses to capitalise or not is their decision.

[Elias Graves]

Catholicism is a Christian faith. Protestant churches, also Christian, formed by breaking away from the Catholic Church.

EG

[Chase]

Waffles, anyone? Merely discussing issues, of course, but just as ending sentences in prepositions--or not--is more an issue of one's writing style than one's grammar, knowing whether Catholics are Christian--or not--seems more an issue of one's education rather than one's religion . . . or absence of either.

[Rambutanious]

That one is willing to nit-pick the grammatical errors out of another's post only to later state it as a matter of writing style is quite ridiculous.

If you wish to factor religion into education, I welcome you. I'm not a religious expert, and I apologise if I've upset you because of that. :)

[Chase]

That one is willing to nit-pick the grammatical errors out of another's post only to later state it as a matter of writing style is quite ridiculous.

If you wish to factor religion into education, I welcome you. I'm not a religious expert, and I apologise if I've upset you because of that. :)

I'll admit to nitpicking. It's so fun on pompous posts--even my own when I wax pretentiously. However, I deny stating ridiculous errors (for instance, "one chooses to capitalise or not is their decision") were style, or even remotely stylish.

Also, I didn't factor religion into education, although comparative religion should certainly be a part of a rounded education.

And far from being upset, I'm lovin' it--especially ad homenin instead of addressing issues. I hope it's not too late to welcome you to the grammar dog pile and commend you for always keeping a civil tongue in your thread.

[johnnysannie]

Catholicism is a Christian faith. Protestant churches, also Christian, formed by breaking away from the Catholic Church.

EG

Not only is the Catholic Church a Christian religion, it is the first and original Christian faith. Until the time of the Reformation, anything refered to as "Christian" was most likely Catholic because it was the sole Christian denomination. Catholic teachings indicate that the apostle Peter was the first Pope.

This holds true until 1517 when Luther dissented.

One of my college history courses was a class about the Reformation and it was amazing how many of my fellow students did not know and had trouble wrapping their heads around the idea that the original Christian church was the Catholic Church.

That is simple history, not just Catholic teaching.

[Medievalist]

My American Heritage Dictionary gives the following definition for "church"


A building for public, especially Christian worship.


It also gives quite a lot more:


1. A building for public, especially Christian worship.
2. often Church
1. The company of all Christians regarded as a spiritual body.
2. A specified Christian denomination: the Presbyterian Church.
3. A congregation.
3. Public divine worship in a church; a religious service: goes to church at Christmas and Easter.
4. The clerical profession; clergy.
5. Ecclesiastical power as distinguished from the secular: the separation of church and state.

tr.v. churched, church·ing, church·es
To conduct a church service for, especially to perform a religious service for (a woman after childbirth).
adj. Of or relating to the church; ecclesiastical.


N.B. The first definition is the one that is considered most common, or likely; not "most correct."

[johnnysannie]

They are incorrect. A church is a collection of believers not a building.
It is a common secular misconception that a church is a building, however the Catholic Church as well as Protestants hold that the Church is comprised of the worshippers.

EG

IMHO....the Catholic Church with a capital C is the body of believers while "church", lower case c is just the building where we meet for Mass.

The parish is the local church group.

You can have Mass (or celebration of the Eucharist to be correct) anywhere but it doesn't make the place a church. One year for All Saints, we had Mass at a local cemetery.

[Elias Graves]

True.
Regarding the history, its funny when the subject comes up with my Protestant friends. Many have no idea about what happened with Christianity between the resurrection and the beginning of their denomination. Its like it never existed.

EG

[Brindle Chase]

If it were me, I'd say 'Lilly and the nuns...'

I went to a Catholic primary school and I don't remember ever calling the nuns 'sisters'. It would be like calling men 'misters'.

It depends. Some Catholic schools are run by nuns. Some are by sisters. They are different. But in most cases that I have ever heard of, most Catholic schools are run by sisters. Maybe its just the region I live in.

this explains the difference a bit better methinks...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuns

[MacAllister]

Splitting out the hairsplitting derail about Catholic/catholic, and porting to TIO, now.