What to do with the giant on your laptop (or when a novel can't get shorter)

I'm going to look at your example in a moment and probably post with an epic level amount of editing, which I've gotten rather good at lately, as I've cut over 55K from my current book in the past months. And of that, the vast majority is simplifying the language and cutting EVERY unnecessary word. Only 7k has been scene cutting. Seriously.

In a novel that size, I would be surprised if you couldn't whack 50k out of it on a first pass with this method alone. Perhaps more if you're someone who tends to be wordy. I've heard amazing stories of people cutting down things that much. I would at least try to do it. You might not succeed, but if you go through it with a big badass ninja sword three or four times (it takes more than once...I'm on my last big run through and I'm still finding things to cut) you can certainly cut quite a bit. You might find that some characters or subplots aren't really adding to the story. You might find ways to move things around and combine two scenes into one to simplify even more. My guess, without having read it, is that you probably spend more time describing certain things that don't necessarily need it.

Anyway, I'd say go ahead and try to cut it down. You won't get an 80k word book, but maybe you can get it down to 160k. Still pretty big, but you can try it. Once you get it to the point that you've cut everything you possible can without changing the plot drastically stop. It's as simple as that. I'd also have someone beta for you and see if they can recommend cuts.

In the meantime, work on something shorter like everyone else said. Your English is superb considering it's not your first language, btw. I'm impressed.

Oh yeah--I was also gonna say what about changing it to an adult book from YA? Might take some more time and editing, but it'd give you some more wiggle room.

Hey mate,

Just thought I'd get a few words in sideways before the experts ladle advice on you.

I don't want to put you into defensive posture, which I sense you're heading into, because in the end it's your book and you need to do what's right for it. Only you know what that is.

Just remember that golden rule, that it's your book.

Anahid21 said:

The manuscript I'm working on now has gone through 3 initial revisions. After that it was handed to a professional editor (a complete stranger whom I paid to cut things and better the language,) then edited by me again to fix things she missed or didn't understand or I didn't like. Then edited again to become slicker, more dynamic, and to replace lifeless scenes with action.

Click to expand...

This sends shivers down my spine, tbh. I did go and read your sample chapter in SYW. I'm not saying you can't use an editor, sometimes, but there are predators out there that feed off new writers' dreams, just like there are fake agents and fake publishers that will take your cash and break your dream.

My native language isn't English either, but if I'm going to be writing in English then I'm going to have to do the hard slog and learn the language far beyond merely being fluent from schoolwork. I have an academic knowledge of English, as probably you do, meaning that I have no emotional attachments to words.

This makes it doubly important that I learn the language, use it, abuse it, and not rely on external expertise that don't know what emotions I do put into words. The emotional colouring is what constitutes over half of what is in effect my voice.

That personal aside, if English isn't YOUR native language, it may apply to you too, and that means you have to do the hard slog too - without the editor. Then there are lots of other reasons not to use an editor, which are more neutral, and the least of these reasons are Yog's law: money flows to the writer.

Anahid21 said:

I'm not against cutting junk, what I'm not fond of is cutting plot points. If you all truly believe that is possible I bow to you. But it still boggles my mind how a 300,000 word manuscript could be cut down to 80,000 without changing the story.

Click to expand...

As I said, I did read your sample chapter in SYW, and while I in no way qualify as an expert on anything, compared to some of the people in here, I thought there were some problems with it.

POV for one thing, and that I think fed the other problems of excess verbiage. I think you're using the wrong pov, but again that's just my opinion.

If you select the correct POV, you will find that a lot of plot points become extraneous in any case.

I think that if you choose one main character, and tell the tale through his eyes only, then a lot of your world-plotpoints can be alluded to, or just happen without telling about them. The villain will do his thing off the page, so to speak, while the hero trudges on through the adventure.

Again, all of this is my opinion, and as I said I don't want you to go into defensive mode because what all of us are saying is actually for the best intentions. We love writing, we love good stories, and we want every story to be the best it can be.

Anahid21 said:

To give you an idea, my characters go through 3 cities, 4 villages, a caravanserai, 2 deserts, 2 castles, a cliff maze and a cave. There are 5 battles and 15 fully developed characters in the story, some of whom have their own story arcs separate from the main character. If the verdict is that such a plot is fundamentally flawed because this many things are stuffed in it I understand. Perhaps better than those who say "things shouldn't be explained." I wonder if any reader would prefer it if I called a locale simply "castle" or "town" without at least giving a one or two sentence description of what it actually looks like, or have the characters take a stroll through its bazaar/main square/garbage filled back alleys.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone would argue that you shouldn't have a sentence or two. The concern is are you spending a page describing each new place instead of a sentence or two.

The part that stands out here to me is 15 fully developed characters and separate story arcs. You probably (almost definitely) don't need that many. Have you considered cutting a few characters and then writing their story? Or how about if you want to make a trilogy that fully stands alone, what about cutting out a lot of the side-arcs and what not entirely, but having a character in just kind of on the side, and then have those stories told in another book. I actually think that would be pretty cool. It's different from the typical sequel process and could be really interesting.

Anahid21 said:

The manuscript I'm working on now has gone through 3 initial revisions. After that it was handed to a professional editor (a complete stranger whom I paid to cut things and better the language,) then edited by me again to fix things she missed or didn't understand or I didn't like. Then edited again to become slicker, more dynamic, and to replace lifeless scenes with action.

Click to expand...

I just spent two hours going through the prologue you posted and editing it down to less than half its size. (The end result is far from perfect but it captures the essence of the scene, albeit a bit blandly--it needs a little spice added back in, assuming the chapter is needed at all.) If what you posted is a finished product from a paid "professional" editor than I'd have to say you were ripped off. It is burdened with passive voice, over description, head-hopping, and redundancies. See my post there for more specifics.

I paid the editor to fix my manuscript. She completely changed the tone of the story and turned it into colloquial English. I wouldn't have been able to do it without her because English is not my first language.

Click to expand...

If English is not your first language, I understand the obstacles you are facing. But whoever you paid to edit the work didn't do you, or the work, justice. I hope you didn't spend much.

That said, I'd be thrilled to know it is possible to shorten the story without changing the plot. However I don't understand this insistence that my story is long simply because I padded it with too much description.

Click to expand...

If the prologue you posted is representative of the rest of the work, you absolutely did pad it with too much description. When it comes to description, try to figure out why you need to describe something -- what do you want to communicate to the reader? Then pick one, maybe two, very telling details that paint that picture in the reader's mind and communicate whatever it is you want to get across. Don't beat the reader over the head with repetitive details. If an alley is winding and dark, say that once, don't keep repeating it. Trust the reader to get it the first time. And pick your descriptive terms very carefully -- take the time to find the best words or terms.

If something happens in every scene and the plot careens forward like a runaway carriage the reader might feel lost, especially in an environment where everything is foreign.

Click to expand...

Careening forward and feeling lost may not be a bad thing. It might let the reader feel the same confusion and out-of-control helplessness the character does. Put the reader in the POV character's shoes.

I (and others here who have been bluntly honest) don't want to sound mean, but your sample chapter shows that you have a LOT of work to do on this story. And your posts indicate you are in denial of this fact and lack the ability to see your work objectively -- a common problem most of us have struggled with at some time. If you are truly committed to your story and want to improve your skills as a writer, then consider all the feedback you have gotten here as openly and objectively as you can. Then commit the time and effort necessary to pare and edit and shape your ms into something stronger. It won't be easy; writing well is hard work and it takes time to learn the necessary skills. It doesn't happen overnight but most of those who are willing to invest the time and effort will eventually get there. I hope you're one of them.

Good luck!

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

kaitie said:

Have you considered cutting a few characters and then writing their story? Or how about if you want to make a trilogy that fully stands alone, what about cutting out a lot of the side-arcs and what not entirely, but having a character in just kind of on the side, and then have those stories told in another book. I actually think that would be pretty cool. It's different from the typical sequel process and could be really interesting.

Click to expand...

This is an excellent idea! I agree that 15 characters with full arcs is too many for one book. You're going to have a hard time getting the reader to relate to any one character and invest in them. But using those 15 characters in smaller, supporting roles for one featured main character in book one, and then giving each of those characters their own story in a sequel, is a great way to make use of what you have.

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

cwfgal said:

I just spent two hours going through the prologue you posted and editing it down to less than half its size. (The end result is far from perfect but it captures the essence of the scene, albeit a bit blandly--it needs a little spice added back in, assuming the chapter is needed at all.) If what you posted is a finished product from a paid "professional" editor than I'd have to say you were ripped off. It is burdened with passive voice, over description, head-hopping, and redundancies. See my post there for more specifics.

If English is not your first language, I understand the obstacles you are facing. But whoever you paid to edit the work didn't do you, or the work, justice. I hope you didn't spend much.

If the prologue you posted is representative of the rest of the work, you absolutely did pad it with too much description. When it comes to description, try to figure out why you need to describe something -- what do you want to communicate to the reader? Then pick one, maybe two, very telling details that paint that picture in the reader's mind and communicate whatever it is you want to get across. Don't beat the reader over the head with repetitive details. If an alley is winding and dark, say that once, don't keep repeating it. Trust the reader to get it the first time. And pick your descriptive terms very carefully -- take the time to find the best words or terms.

Careening forward and feeling lost may not be a bad thing. It might let the reader feel the same confusion and out-of-control helplessness the character does. Put the reader in the POV character's shoes.

I (and others here who have been bluntly honest) don't want to sound mean, but your sample chapter shows that you have a LOT of work to do on this story. And your posts indicate you are in denial of this fact and lack the ability to see your work objectively -- a common problem most of us have struggled with at some time. If you are truly committed to your story and want to improve your skills as a writer, then consider all the feedback you have gotten here as openly and objectively as you can. Then commit the time and effort necessary to pare and edit and shape your ms into something stronger. It won't be easy; writing well is hard work and it takes time to learn the necessary skills. It doesn't happen overnight but most of those who are willing to invest the time and effort will eventually get there. I hope you're one of them.

Good luck!

Beth (aka Annelise Ryan)

Click to expand...

I'm doing the same thing right now, but I've got to run to practice soon or I'll miss the train, so I'll have to finish up later (about halfway through). I agree, though, that there's too much description, but mostly just an excess of words. Especially for an actiony scene like this, you want it as streamlined as it can be. One sentence moving easily and swiftly to the next. The structure should mimic the feeling you wish to convey. If you have more lighthearted or poignant scenes, more description might work there.

Overall this isn't bad! So please don't think that's what we're saying. It's an interesting premise and the writing really isn't bad, but it can be improved and cleaned up for sure.

I think most of us have no idea how to do this. It's a completely different mindset from that of a writer. It's difficult because often it sounds right to us in writer mode, but editor mode says "wait...I don't really need that."

It's difficult and requires a very conscious effort, but once you start getting into the right mindset it will get a lot easier. And don't worry, you aren't the only one who writes long. My first draft was 185k, and my edits looked a bit like what I'm making on yours. Just a lot of excess words.

So yeah, you definitely can do this, and I'm certain you'll be able to cut a huge chunk from it before you even think about removing entire scenes or characters.

Case in point - George R.R. Martin's A Game of Thrones must be somewhere about 300k words and it has eight viewpoint characters (not counting the one-off prologue viewpoint character). Obviously there are other significant characters - at least two of whom become POV characters later in the series - but that's eight interweaving plot arcs.

I haven't read your work, but I can't see how you can have fifteen viewpoint characters/plot arcs in a similar wordcount and do them full justice.

Whether you like his work or not, GRRM's writing ability should not be in doubt. He's been a professional writer since the early 1970s. You, to be blunt, are as yet unproven.

Anahid21 said:

Would it be better to write something else and leave this for now?

Click to expand...

Only you can answer that, really.

But sometimes (actually, most times) getting distance from a work before attacking it again is a good thing. Distance provides perspective and a measure of objectivity, and shrinks things that initially look like mountainous obstacles down to manageable size.

And (and all this is from my own personal experience, and isn't a measure for anybody else) i find that writing something else also helps give me that perspective. Doesn't have to be another novel. Even a short story or two in between editing passes or rewrites helps.

Set goals, too. Little goals ('this week i want to finish rewriting this chapter' kinda thing). Big goals are much easier to achieve with a whole lot of little goals set up as stepping-stones along the way.

Anahid21 said:

Some (perhaps 2 or 3) have their own story arcs which are presented as side stories (and which I sadly must cut now.)

Click to expand...

I have another way you could attack your edits (and this i recommend *after* seeing the example you posted in SYW). Cut every scene down to its barest bones (Beth's crit is a good example of that) and see how much you've trimmed the story. Then go back and add flesh to each scene, but don't make them fat. Only add necessary flesh. Make them lean. I reckon you'll end up cutting your manuscript in half. Then look at how you can chop down the backstory in the first few chapters as per my suggestion in the crit thread. Hell, you might be able to keep most of your side arcs and have the story sitting at a healthy 100-110,000 words.

Of course, doing that may not work (and i by no means claim to be an authority), but it might be something to try.

I was thinking that you don't necessarily need a rewrite, either. Some parts probably will, but for the most part you can just go through and start swiping and cut out plenty. I actually imagine completely rewriting would be a much more arduous task.

Just a word of encouragement: Even us naturally long-winded writers can learn to be concise and sleek. I cut my latest finished MS from 132,000 words to 91,000 AND ADDED SCENES TO IT. That's a reduction of almost a third, even with the new material.

Considering the MS chapter by chapter, then scene by scene, then paragraph by paragraph, then sentence by sentence, then word by word, making each one pay full price for its place -- it's amazing how much verbiage this process will prune over several revisions, each one concentrating on smaller units.

Toothpaste said:

See the thing is this. It's easy to write a long book. Really really easy. Most first time authors write books that have far too much padding in them. It is truly rare for a first time author to write something too short. I'm speaking from personal experience as well, my first book needed to be trimmed significantly.

Click to expand...

Um, objection your honor, on behalf of those with the opposite problem, i.e. What To Do If Your Novel's Still Not Long Enough. (Where'd that thread go? I know I saw one around here somewhere...)

As for Anahid's problem, all the advice given here is great, but I'd also suggest doing an outline. Draw up a skeleton for your story, the bits that absolutely cannot be cut, and see where you end up. I think you'll be surprised how much you can chuck out once you get going in that direction.

By the way, if you think you 13 other characters with their own subplots could carry their own novels, then why not give them each one? That'll give you something to play with while you're waiting on those rejection letters.

Toothpaste said:

It's easy to write a long book. Really really easy. Most first time authors write books that have far too much padding in them.

Click to expand...

Uh... this is just partially true. I've written few things before and I used to write short novels. But there could be two reasons why the novel is long.

#1 First time author as you written
#2 The story cannot be told in the average length at all

In the second case, I'm doing this right now, trust me, writing a long novel is far from easy and sometimes a story cannot be told in 130k words.

*Raises hand* Sometimes, the trouble is that you're trying to do too much in that one book. My first draft of my first book had um, ghosts, spies, a love story, biblical demons, and um I think there was a kitchen sink in there somewhere. It was also 186k words.

Second draft (okay, eighteenth draft) got rid of the biblical demons and cut back on the spies and ended up at 100k words, and a much better book to boot. It *can* be done. In the present publishing climate, it's just a really start choice of 'do I want to get this story published', or not, and if so, what am I willing to sacrifice?

Well. If you're adding filling elements what you can cut, it can be done. But in a novel, where everything has a meaning, everything is a returning element and has an essence, this cannot be really done (Well, everything is possible, but after a point only the empty shell of your novel will look back at you. That's why you must find an appropriate balance.). Personally, I'm not going to sacrifice any vital from my one. If the agent is good, he can sell it.

I think the freelance editor was your first mistake. I tink it's always a horrible idea for any novelist to send anything to a freelance editor for any reason. That just ain't the way it works.

But any novel can be cut to any length. Usually it's just a matter of learning how, or of having a good enough reason.

If the editor at a major pubishing house said, "We love this novel, and we'd love to publish it, but you have to cut eighty thousand words", you could probably cut it in a couple of weeks, though resewing the seams woud take longer.

And if the editor decided to cut it by going thorugh with a red pencil, I guarantee he could cut very, very quickly.

Cutting a really long novel by a very large amount is not something you do by tightening and cutting scenes, though these do matter for every novel. To cut a really long novel by a very large amount, you have to do some combination of eliminating a character or characters, eliminating sub-plot/plot lines, reducing the number of obstacles, etc.

You have to remove entire threads from the taperstry, not just shorten the ones you have.

raburrell said:

*Raises hand* Sometimes, the trouble is that you're trying to do too much in that one book. My first draft of my first book had um, ghosts, spies, a love story, biblical demons, and um I think there was a kitchen sink in there somewhere. It was also 186k words.

Second draft (okay, eighteenth draft) got rid of the biblical demons and cut back on the spies and ended up at 100k words, and a much better book to boot. It *can* be done. In the present publishing climate, it's just a really start choice of 'do I want to get this story published', or not, and if so, what am I willing to sacrifice?

Click to expand...

I think this is the main thing I keep seeing and it really stands out to me. My first draft wasn't terrible. In fact, a good friend (and excellent writer) called it "publishable quality" when he read it (he was really surprised). So yeah, it needed work, but overall it wasn't that bad, with the exception of Chapter 3 which everyone pretty much universally hated.

What amazes me, though, is how incredibly much happier I am with what I've got now after cutting so much. The language is more streamlined, the pacing has improved immensely, and even though I lost a couple of things I really liked or wanted in, overall I think the book has improved ten times over. I look at it now and instead of seeing a bunch of mediocrity and things that need to be changed, I see something that's pretty tight that I could actually imagine on a bookshelf. That was cool.

So my point is obviously that even if it sounds painful, chances are when you go back later and look at it again, you'll probably actually be much happier with the work as a whole. Obviously save a copy of the current draft somewhere in case you change your mind on things, but you'll almost certainly like it better.

James. In my case a normal editor would cut out elements, which are necessary. In my WIP's case everything has a meaning and many things, events, dialogues are returning elements. My editor knows this world inside out as we've also worked on my WIP's mini series together. In my case a standard editor would wipe out half of the novel, including all the vital details and elements and I can't let to happen.

If the editor at a major pubishing house said, "We love this novel, and we'd love to publish it, but you have to cut eighty thousand words".

Click to expand...

Then they're not the publishing house that we're looking for and we're moving further to the next one. But our case is a bit different. My WIP is known by some agents and industry pros by some reason. Also we will add some nice reference to the query.

In response to those of you who commented on my "it's easy to write a long book" saying, um, no it isn't for people like me:

I didn't mean it quite the way you are interpreting it. I meant it like this. Many new authors write longer than necessary books. More such authors write such books than ones that are too short (though such authors exist as well). The problem is that the new authors who write the books that are too long tend not to know that many many new authors do this and they think they are special therefore. They hold up their word count as something unusual and a demonstration of how they just can't cut anything because, "This might be my first book, but look how long and complex it is, I must be the exception to the rule."

Pointing out to such authors that actually they are the norm and not the exception is a harsh reality, but very necessary in my mind because it brings them down to earth. The thinking you are special because you wrote something long and complicated thing is a big barrier to such an author actually editing the work. They are proud of the length, they don't want to cut it. When you explain that actually, most authors are just like them, it hurts at first, but then they realise that if most authors were like them, and most authors were able to edit, then maybe they actually can too.

And then they get down to business.

Yes there are new authors who write too short as well. And some who write just the right amount. Nor am I saying it is easy to write. It's not easy to write anything. But it isn't any harder to write long than it is to write short. Writing a story at all is really hard. But writing something tight, in my mind, is actually harder for a first time author, because it means being ruthless and "killing your babies". Realising that maybe not every word you write is golden. That's a tough pill to swallow.

Toothpaste, I think you're right to an extent, but that there are other factors at play as well. I was intimidated by cutting my story and it had nothing to do with golden word syndrome. It was just because I didn't realize how much could actually come out. I knew I'd be able to cut it down some, but I had to go and seek out information and learn about things I'd never have thought of. I found a tips page somewhere on ways to lower word count and I started going through, and some I knew but a lot I had never even considered.

I think for a lot of new writers (and I'm certainly not new, just unpublished), it's as much a matter of learning proper editing technique as anything. It seems daunting and intimidating because we have no idea how to go about it. Then once we start learning, it becomes normal.

General rules are guidelines, nothing more. Sometimes you must step beyond the rules, round them to make a difference.

Just as Kaitie, I also don't have any problem with eliminate words and shorten something. I directly asked my betas to tell me where they feel there is too much info, because we want to create the balance between readability, fluid plot advance and the necessary details. But sometimes storylines are complex with a reason and sometimes a storyline is better if it's longer, then shorter.

Can you imagine LOTR in 100k words? It wouldn't be the same anymore.

Anahid21 said:

-First off, word count is somewhere in the 300,000 region, give or take 1000. Like I said it's huge. But I know with a deft hand it could be knocked down to, say 250,000.

Click to expand...

I bet with a really deft hand, it can come down to 90,000. My guess is it's got a whole bunch of subplots that really don't need to be there. Maybe these subplots can be excised and saved for potential sequels or "further adventures of Character A and Character B" type of books. But they very likely do not assist the primary plot of this book.

-Second, I posted the first chapter here: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4305366#post4305366
as suggested. You can take any paragraph you like and kill it.

Click to expand...

Cool! I'll check it out next.

-Cutting scenes is also a good idea, and I would have gotten to it right away. But the story is so long I don't think any good will be done without actually changing the plot and eliminating characters and events.

Click to expand...

Then do it! Nothing is sacred. You can kill anything if it'll make the book better.

My fear is that the story may lose its charm and feel.

Click to expand...

It'll be a learning experience, then. You'll learn how to become a much stronger writer by conveying the same charm and feel in 200,000 less words.

Keep in mind I'm lifting a slightly heavier weight here, introducing a completely unique world, unique form of magic, characters and places with unfamiliar names, foreign culture, government, rules, etc. etc.

Click to expand...

Give your readers a lot more credit than you (and most other new writers) do. Most backstory and description of totally new worlds doesn't require entire chapters or prologues or even paragraphs. Most of it can be slipped in with just a couple of sentences, or even a few words. The way a character reacts or what a character says can really tell your readers a lot about your world. It's also okay to allow them to infer some things, even if their mental image of the government or the magic doesn't fit exactly with yours. What's really important to the reader is that they understand the plot and the main characters. The rest is window dressing to the reader, no matter how important it may be to you.

-Cutting stuff that seems unimportant has another side effect as well (Some one you might want to yell at me after this You see, this is supposed to be Book One of a much bigger series. Yes, I know what you're thinking: Idiot first time writer taking up a crazy epic thing. It just happened. Like Steven King said, stories are like fossils we find in the ground. I just happened to stumble upon a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Click to expand...

Great! Book One doesn't have to be 300,000 words. It can be 90K and work just fine. I promise you.

Don't canonize your own work, dahling. You will be come a more effective, more confident and publishable writer by learning how to ruthlessly edit yourself. And it's kinda fun.