Conversion to Catholicism

aruna · Nov 18, 2009

She's a 17 year old girl who wants to convert, but her parents (Hindus) won't let her. Would she need their permission, from a legal point of view? From the Church's point of view? This is 1947, during British rule.

scarletpeaches · Nov 18, 2009

I'm guessing not. But don't quote me on that because it is just a gut reaction.

She would be required to take Catholic instruction though.

StephanieFox · Nov 18, 2009

This will give you some info:

http://www.britannica.com/bps/addit...ate-Secularism-Caste-and-Religious-Conversion

The problems with conversions were (as is everything else) caste based, so knowing the caste of this girl would help, too.

Shakesbear · Nov 18, 2009

A 17 year old in 1947 would not legally be of age - so she would have needed her parents permission. However, if a RC priest baptised her then she might be considered to be Catholic - despite not being of age. It would need a pretty gutsy 17 year old to stand up to her parents and it could have meant her being an out cast from her family.

aruna · Nov 18, 2009

Thanks to everyone!

Perks · Nov 18, 2009

I converted to Catholicism when I was 27. I grew up Pentecostal. I thought I'd be more receptive if church was a little quieter. And ended in an hour. And didn't do tent revivals in August.

I'd be happy to offer any memories of the process if you think they'd help.

Irishgirl · Nov 20, 2009

As an older person, she would receive the three sacraments of Baptism, Eucharist and Confirmation all at one time when she did convert, after a period of reflection called the period of Catechumenate. After that, the church has the Right of Election, on the first Sunday of Lent. Purification and Enlightenment goes through the period of Lent, where the initiate prepares herself for the sacraments. During the Easter Vigil mass they receive the sacraments of initiation and become full members of the church. By then, your character might be 18.

I didn't see anything about an age requirement, but I wouldn't be surprised. Of course, being 17 wouldn't bar her from attending mass, but not going through the process of initiation would keep her from receiving the Eucharist.
Blessed Kateri Tekekwitha might be a good source of inspiration for you as she was a Native American who converted to Catholicism in the 1600's. The fact that she was born in a very different culture than most Catholics might give you some insight. Hope that helps.

Keyan · Nov 26, 2009

aruna said:
She's a 17 year old girl who wants to convert, but her parents (Hindus) won't let her. Would she need their permission, from a legal point of view? From the Church's point of view? This is 1947, during British rule.

I think personal law was pretty complicated at that time, and I don't think there was a clear age of majority. An unmarried girl would be her parents' dependent into her early twenties. But she could be married at 16, or even earlier. Child marriages were still quite common.

If she wants to convert at age 17, she will likely have to break with her parents entirely and acquire some other powerful protector. Her parents' need to control her would be less grounded in her welfare (though that would be important) but very influenced by family honor and community norms.

A lot would depend on class/ caste/ regional issues. Where in India is this girl, and what language does she speak? What class? (What does her father do?) What caste?

aruna · Nov 27, 2009

Keyan said:
A lot would depend on class/ caste/ regional issues. Where in India is this girl, and what language does she speak? What class? (What does her father do?) What caste?

Thanks, Keyan! That fits nicely. The family is Ksatriya, with connections to royalty, educted, wealthy, and very strong in their culture, and yes, a complete break with her family is what I aim for. They are in North India, possibly Rajasthan, or the Punjab. Maybe from Jaipur.
The strong figure who lures her into Christianity is a charismatic Catholic priest, so yes, she does have a protector.
I realise that socially, her conversion is a huge no-no; I just need to know how legal ramifications. I assume that spiritually, for the Church, it would indeed be binding, regardless of the legal aspect.

Keyan · Nov 27, 2009

Kshatriya. Rajput. That would imply honor is extremely important. This would pretty certainly be a situation where the family would *not* take it to court, so in a sense, the legalities are meaningless. They would try to use power and influence, and try to keep it quiet.

They would have a strong sense of ownership of her. The first embarrassment for the family would be that she's a defiant daughter. Defiant daughters - or sons - would reflect badly on the family.

However, if you are setting this in pre-Independence India, then the Christian missions might have a bit more power than subsequently. (1947 is rather late, though, since the political shift toward Independence would already have occurred.)I presume the priest is Irish or Scottish?

Depending on how much resistance you want in your story, the family could just disown her (if she's one of many daughters and does it quietly) and hush it up.

Or if you want more conflict, they could fight to have her returned with the intention of marrying her off suitably so she's no longer a problem. This might mean retainers galloping up to the place she's being hidden, demanding she be returned. This is not so likely; one fear would be that no one would want to marry their other daughters, since this girl would give the whole family a bad name. But injured pride can make people do strange things.

TMazz · Nov 28, 2009

It's also important to remember that just because the law might not recognize your religion, within the Catholic church she would be recognized as long as she completed the sacraments of baptism, first communion, and confirmation. In fact, I believe she would be considered Catholic from baptism on. (I'm not confirmed, yet was baptized and raised Catholic, and thus technically belong to the church. But because I'm not confirmed, there are certain limitations to what I can do in terms of marrying within the church.)

Irishgirl · Dec 1, 2009

Keyan said:
I presume the priest is Irish or Scottish?

Many Scottish are not Catholic, but Protestant, not that there aren't Scottish Catholic. France, Spain and Italy are also mainly Catholic.

Your great post on caste systems got me thinking...
Interestingly, when Ireland was converted to Catholicism, the missionaries paid a great deal of attention to people who had lost their clan. Loosing your clan was like being disowned, but larger. Imagine being disowned by everyone who shared your last name. The church offered these people a place to belong to.

Irishgirl · Dec 1, 2009

TMazz said:
It's also important to remember that just because the law might not recognize your religion, within the Catholic church she would be recognized as long as she completed the sacraments of baptism, first communion, and confirmation.

As an older person, she would perform all of these sacraments at one time.

Southern Girl · Dec 1, 2009

Agreed, Irishgirl. I converted at an older age, and the sacraments were done at one time, within one mass. The RCIA class was a year prior, leading up to.

aruna · Dec 2, 2009

Thanks for all these tips! I have a bit of a problem. I do think he should be Irish Catholic, but I want him to be familiar with COE prayers, hymns, carols etc. I know a bit about those and in some cases it's quite fitting. So I have given him a Protestant father from Liverpool, married to a Catholic Irish woman. So he grew up COE, and converted to Catholicism later on.
Now, would it be really really bad to have a Catholic priest repeating COE prayers from his youth to himself? Or using COE hymns during a service? Is the division so strong?

eyeblink · Dec 2, 2009

aruna said:
Thanks for all these tips! I have a bit of a problem. I do think he should be Irish Catholic, but I want him to be familiar with COE prayers, hymns, carols etc. I know a bit about those and in some cases it's quite fitting. So I have given him a Protestant father from Liverpool, married to a Catholic Irish woman. So he grew up COE, and converted to Catholicism later on.

Actually, my father is CoE (lapsed) and my mother is Catholic (still practising). When my parents married, my father had to agree to the children being raised as Catholic - which my brother and I were. I was born in 1964.

So I would think it likely that someone of the parentage you describe would have been raised as Catholic. I don't know if it still does (I'm lapsed now), but the Catholic church used to disapprove of "mixed marriages".

Priene · Dec 2, 2009

I've got a very similar background to eyeblink, and I've been atheist since, oooh the late nineteen-seventies. But whenever I hear a Protestant doing the doxology at the end of Our Father, I can't stop myself thinking that they're just getting it wrong.

Dicentra P · Dec 2, 2009

Southern Girl said:
Agreed, Irishgirl. I converted at an older age, and the sacraments were done at one time, within one mass. The RCIA class was a year prior, leading up to.

RCIA is post Vatican II, as is the return to the three sacraments of initiation at once at the Easter Vigil. In 1947 she would have private instruction and then baptism and communion by priest. Confirmation by a bishop later. Note the only time the parish priest is allowed to Confirm is at the Easter Vigil Rite of Christian Initiation.

pdr · Dec 2, 2009

I think...

you'll find, Aruna, that the condition of allowing a Catholic to marry outside the faith was, and is, that the non-catholic partner had to promise that the children were brought up as RC.

So the norm would be that your man would have been brought up RC.

As for a conversion of a Hindu daughter - I boggle! How did she get near RC missionaries? How did she escape her parents?

aruna · Dec 3, 2009

pdr said:
you'll find, Aruna, that the condition of allowing a Catholic to marry outside the faith was, and is, that the non-catholic partner had to promise that the children were brought up as RC.

Click to expand...

Interesting... OK, that is easily changed. It's just a detail. Thanks!

As for a conversion of a Hindu daughter - I boggle! How did she get near RC missionaries? How did she escape her parents?

Click to expand...

Oh, that's not a problem. He's a good friend of her parents, a visitor to their home; they donate to his charities. As you may know, Hindus are quite open to other religions and the priest enjoys many philosphical discussions with her educated father, hoping secretly to convert the whole family. He's young, good looking, charismatic (Think Richard Chamberlain in The Thorn Birds) and the daughter falls in love with him and his message. Her parents trust him since he is celibate. Many Hindu upper-class families were quite liberal in those days, their daughters not in purdah. At least, this was factually the case with the Baroda royal family I base my characters on.

Irishgirl · Dec 3, 2009

aruna said:
Now, would it be really really bad to have a Catholic priest repeating COE prayers from his youth to himself? Or using COE hymns during a service? Is the division so strong?

I don't think that the prayers/hymns are all that different, but I believe he would only say the Catholic versions. Pre Vatican II things were pretty strict.

I talked to my mom about needing permission for conversion, she is a lay sister...kind of like being a nun, but you are still a lay person with your house, job, life, etc. She was also a convert in her teens. She said that considering how much it would change your character's life, she would need to be a legal adult. Because it is a 'life altering decision', local law would have to be considered. I hope that helps. She also said that your book sounds really interesting.

Priene · Dec 3, 2009

Wouldn't pre-Vatican II services have been in Latin?

pdr · Dec 3, 2009

Yup!

Latin indeed. And hymns were very different though some prayers were similar.

benbradley · Dec 3, 2009

This doesn't appear helpful to your story, but here's a more recent convert, perhaps this will be helpful for someone else:
http://www.allenhuntshow.com/Allen-Hunt/2009/10/09/my_own_faith_journey
I haven't heard that audio yet, but I've heard this guy on the radio off and on for three or four years.

johnnysannie · Dec 4, 2009

Priene said:
Wouldn't pre-Vatican II services have been in Latin?

Mass, yes. Commonly said prayers, not always. Although most Catholics - including myself - learned the Latin for Our Father, Hail Mary, etc., in daily life, Catholics saying the prayers would normally have said them in their own language.

Conversion to Catholicism

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