killing small children

RJK · Nov 17, 2009

At a writer's group meeting last night, a new member described a novel he'd written. It was about terrorists attacking America, from one terrorist's POV.
To summarize in as few words as possible, the terrorist was trying to start a shooting war between Iran and the US. His group committed several attacks, but because the US was in no position to engage in a third war, they didn't attack Iran. He finally captured an elementary school, lined up all the kindergarten children and shot them on national TV. In his story this provoked the US to nuke Tehran after they gave them time to evacuate.

My question is, did the author go too far? Is virtually killing little children for entertainment acceptable?

Red-Green · Nov 17, 2009

Meh. Depends on how far you took it for shock factor probably. I mean, think about how many children die in global disaster movies. Or consider the fact that 40,000 kids a day die for real from malnutrition.

dolores haze · Nov 17, 2009

Was the scene well written? Or was it for shock value only?

willietheshakes · Nov 17, 2009

RJK said:
My question is, did the author go too far? Is virtually killing little children for entertainment acceptable?

Not in a memoir.

Fredster · Nov 17, 2009

I think it's acceptable if it's done to show just how bad someone is, or what they're willing to do to achieve their goals.

My entire story depends on the death of an eleven-year-old boy.

Moost · Nov 17, 2009

This reminds me of Law and Order SVU. I think it (used to be) a very compelling show, despite the fact that the plots often put small children in danger. In one episode, the leader of a cult murdered all eight of his children, and in another, a gunman opened fire on a pre-school, killing four.

I knew a number of people who wouldn't watch SVU for these reasons. They called it sick and disturbing and while I agree with that at times, the violence fit the the tone of the episode.

So, it has to be done well and not simply for shock value. Even then, it will come down to a matter of personal taste whether or not someone would want to read a book like that. FWIW I don't think I would.

Maxinquaye · Nov 17, 2009

Yeah, the violence is part of the world. We're sort of telling the truth by way of lying. If it suits the story, it's okay.

kellion92 · Nov 17, 2009

I think it's lazy on the part of the writer to be so extreme. I understand the character's goal is to provoke war, but few terrorists would describe themselves as terrorists. They believe they have political legitimacy and thus while children are often killed, they are rarely targeted. Of course, since the scene is from the murderer's POV, maybe everything can be explained and justified. But what reader would want to go along for the ride to emphathize with him?

RJK · Nov 17, 2009

The author didn't read the scene. He explained that the reason for the scene was to show the contrast between a loving family man, living in Tehran, and the same man who was willing to do such a thing, to advance his agenda.

I'm aware there are many stories where children die or are put in jeopardy, but few are machine gunned down on national TV in these stories. Even the true stories we learn of the massacres in Rwanda, Soweto, the Congo, and dozens of other places, the news broadcasters spare us the actual scenes, rather than boosting their ratings with titillating shots of these deaths.

Maxinquaye · Nov 17, 2009

Well, the premise is fairly unbelievable to begin with, and more show a certain level of FOX-watching rather than a true understanding of the nature of Iran and persians.

Iran has a fairly sophisticated security service. They tend to "settle" problems rather quickly, and a person like this would indeed be a problem.

Remember, bin Laden was a disenfranchised Saudi. Most of the taliban running around in Afghanistan were/are foreign fighters from primarily Saudi Arabia and other places, and not primarily Iran.

So, I think the premise is flawed. But I see no problem with it, as long as the story demands it.

Lordofthehunt · Nov 17, 2009

If it fits within the context of the story, there is nothing an author can't write. Given what people we've labeled "terrorists" have shown they're willing to do, this does not seem out of character.

That said, the scenes must also be written to match the context of the book. If the book is intended to produce an emotional response, you wouldn't want to make the scenes gory.

dolores haze · Nov 17, 2009

It's, unfortunately, not unbelievable. A terrorist group did something similar in Russia a few years ago.

MGraybosch · Nov 17, 2009

RJK said:
My question is, did the author go too far?

No. School massacres have happened in real life, just not at the hands of people trying to provoke wars.

RJK said:
Is virtually killing little children for entertainment acceptable?

Depends on the reader. Some will be offended that the kids were killed, and some won't be.

Maxinquaye · Nov 17, 2009

dolores haze said:
It's, unfortunately, not unbelievable. A terrorist group did something similar in Russia a few years ago.

Yes, but they were chechen, not Iranians.

Iranians are pretty savvy oppressors. Unfortunately. They're also not dumb. The premise up there seems to suggest an Iranian plot to kill US school children. Iranians never get their hands dirty. They prefer others to do the dirty work.

The prospective terrorist would have been dead by the time his thought had finished formulating.

veinglory · Nov 17, 2009

It's fantasy. It may or may not be a good story, but no one is harmed during the killing of imaginary children.

Thump · Nov 17, 2009

Maxinquaye said:
Yes, but they were chechen, not Iranians.

Iranians are pretty savvy oppressors. Unfortunately. They're also not dumb. The premise up there seems to suggest an Iranian plot to kill US school children. Iranians never get their hands dirty. They prefer others to do the dirty work.

The prospective terrorist would have been dead by the time his thought had finished formulating.

Considering all the stuff with Neda and now the persecution in Iran and the UK by the Iranian governement of the people involved, I have difficulty believing this. I happen to know the man who circulated the videos of the shooting of Neda and he can't go back to Iran because he'd be arrested, the gov is branding him a lier, a spy, the real murdered of Neda etc. Family members and friends have been arrested and mistreated by the authorities...
He's also received threats while in the UK. Doesn't seem to deviate much from your regular oppressive regime.

I don't have any issues with small children dying violently in books as long as it's not done just for the sake of "oooh watch what horrible things I have my char do to children!" but then, that's true for all violence in books, IMO.

Maxinquaye · Nov 17, 2009

Thump said:
He's also received threats while in the UK. Doesn't seem to deviate much from your regular oppressive regime.
.

This is way OT i guess, but I don't know where I've said they're not an oppressive regime.

What I've said is, they're not dumb.

LostInWonderland · Nov 17, 2009

veinglory said:
It's fantasy. It may or may not be a good story, but no one is harmed during the killing of imaginary children.

This is pretty much where I stand on the subject.

Violence for the sake of violence will never work, whether it's being done to children or adults. If there's a reason for it and has to be done to further the plot, so be it. Would the scene be any less bothersome/disturbing if he had gone to a college campus instead? IMO, not really. A horrible deed done to another innocent human being is awful no matter what their age.

What I think would bother me more in a story like this, as a reader, would be the fact that the book is told from essentially the villain's POV. I generally do not enjoy stories that do this because a) either you spend the whole book reading about an unrelatable and unsympathetic MC or b) the author tries to justify some reason why we should feel sympathetic towards him/her. The former is a little more tolerable than the latter, but still imho makes for a fairly unpleasant read.

Just my two cents.

ishtar'sgate · Nov 17, 2009

RJK said:
My question is, did the author go too far? Is virtually killing little children for entertainment acceptable?

Sadly this kind of thing does happen in parts of the world. If it's only used for shock value and not tied to the actual story in any way then it's too much. Sounds as if it's the catalyst though so I expect it's necessary. I only hope the author has treated the scene with the seriousness it deserves.

DannySherbet · Nov 17, 2009

RJK said:
My question is, did the author go too far? Is virtually killing little children for entertainment acceptable?

Not sure about children, but I for one enjoy making my characters suffer. I can't do contentment and happy endings.

Whether this reflects badly on me as a person is anyone's guess.

Lady Ice · Nov 17, 2009

People do like to read about very dark things, the sort of things that they'd never want to happen to them.

StoryG27 · Nov 17, 2009

If the writer is trying to show how evil and ruthless certain characters are, I honestly can't think of a better way to do it.

scarletpeaches · Nov 17, 2009

There are too many threads asking "Is this okay?" and "Is this going too far?"

You're missing the point.

"Is it well-written?" should be your only concern.

GreySpy · Nov 17, 2009

I guess I'll be the lonely anti-killing children voice in this crowd! (Ironic, since I'm writing something with a pretty high body-count at the moment.)

Certainly nothing should absolutely be off-limits in fiction, including but not limited to hurting kids. But it would have to be really really good IMHO. The scene would have to be "earned" by the quality of the rest of the writing.

A big question for me would be how the other characters react. For instance, are parents of these kids included in the story? Is the reader asked to wrap their brains around what it would be like to lose a child in this way? Or is it more just, "Whoops, killed a bunch of anonymous children you're not really supposed to care about." Because then, yeah, it starts to sound like a stunt.

It's very very easy to put children in jeopardy and make your audience nervous. It's cheap. And if good writing meant doing the easy thing, everybody would do it.

scarletpeaches · Nov 17, 2009

ANY scene should be written well, not just the 'dead children' ones.

killing small children

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