conversations without attributes

Honalo · Nov 14, 2009

I have this habit of letting conversations go between two or more people without giving an attribute, because I find these can get in the way of the flow of conversation: he said, she said, that sort of thing, and there's only so much scratching of the brow, criss-crossing legs, hand gestures, coughing, etc., that you can do without it sounding amateurish - meaning the person who's scratching the brow, crossing the legs, etc. is the one talking, which eliminates the need for said, as in:

Mirk re-crossed his legs. "Sounds like a plan."

instead of:

"Sounds like a plan," Mirk said.

Well, people are telling me they're confused from my lack of attributes - they can't keep track of who's talking. To me it's easy - of course it is - I'm the one writing the book. But I feel people should be in tune with a particular character's speech - to me they should know who's talking from the way the speech is presented. But what do I know? Maybe it is too difficult. This is a YA book, by the way.

Now I'm thinking, would it be better if I posted the scene and let you guys critique?

Judg · Nov 14, 2009

If people aren't getting it, it's not clear enough. You're going to have to learn how to use dialogue tags and beats gracefully.

I myself often add a lot of those things in the second draft. Wherever it's unclear or feels too hurried, I add something. This is usually a great place to include other sensory details, instead of just talking about the characters' body language.

Cathy C · Nov 14, 2009

I'm not a fan of dialogue tags. I strive to NEVER use them because action advances the plot and word count is often tight. I think one of the problems here is you're not using all five senses to best advantage if you're struggling with attributes. The world is in motion when people talk, no matter how we try to ignore it to concentrate on our conversation. A few questions to consider when you're looking at editing a long line of dialogue-intensive pages:

1. Have I described any scents in the room?

2. Can the parties see anything that catches their attention?

3. Have I described their internal emotions as they speak (because people often say one thing and feel another?)

4. Are they touching anything, fidgeting, etc. that will give the other speaker needed body language clues (think of the TV show "Lie to Me"?)

5. Can they taste anything? Yeah, I know this sounds like a strange question, but we really do consider taste when we talk. It can be as simple as having burned your tongue at dinner last night, or bit the side of your cheek, or burb and taste bile or have stomach rumblings, etc.

In other words, you're going for the obvious visuals, but ignoring the other senses that will give depth to a scene. Give it a try. You'll find that it REALLY makes the story richer.

Linda Adams · Nov 14, 2009

Mela said:
I have this habit of letting conversations go between two or more people without giving an attribute,

If you have more than two characters talking in a conversation, you'll need attributes when you switch speakers to keep from confusing the reader. Not everyone is going to be able to identify this dialogue as being from this character. It's awfully hard to tell which character a one word line of dialogue like "Yes" belongs to.

I also think it's important to periodically remind the reader who's talking. I've seen entire pages where there's no attribute at all, and I lose track of who's saying what. Maybe once every three or four lines or so, when it would naturally fit in.

Mela said:
I find these can get in the way of the flow of conversation: he said, she said, that sort of thing, and there's only so much scratching of the brow, criss-crossing legs, hand gestures, coughing, etc., that you can do without it sounding amateurish

These aren't the only things you can do with the attributes. You have a POV character who can make observations about what's going on or have internal reactions.

kaitie · Nov 14, 2009

I have this same problem and am trying to work it out as well. Attributes also help with the rhythm.

With three or more people it's definitely important to include, but even with two it's possible to get lost in a long back and forth. One of my favorite authors tends to do long scenes of dialogue without any tags, and I often find myself having to stop and go back to make sure I'm right on who's talking again.

I know the hardest bit for me is guessing when someone will be confused. I've often found that even when characters are following a specific pattern, have their own styles, or one is talking about a particular topic people still get confused if I don't have the right tags. It's getting easier for me, but I had to ask some people to tell me where they were confused so I could say go back and fix it. So try asking some other people as well and seeing what they say. It will probably open up your eyes some.

Kisatchie · Nov 14, 2009

I often have the characters use the names of the ones they're talking to, in order to keep things clear:

"Let's go to a movie, Gina."
"No, Dave, I want to listen to National Public Radio."
"Are you crazy?"
"What's wrong with that?"
"They're overrun with liberals," Dave said.
"So what? I like listening to classical music."
"A good Marx brothers movie is much better."
I've seen them all twice," Gina said.
"Well, I'm going to Burger King."
"Have fun, Dave. I won't wait up."

and on and on....

The Lonely One · Nov 14, 2009

attributes--you mean like fidgets, movements, actions in the room? Or are we talking about dialog tags? I don't think you should include "filler" material where it just distracts from the conversation. Pacing is all good and well, but don't martyr the focus of the scene to fill in the blanks. The actions should fit naturally into the scene.

And often a good writer can identify characters contextually rather than with tags, but there's nothing wrong with "said" tags, or even some more creative ones when they work. And if two people are speaking in turn you don't need more than one or two unless an action breaks up the pattern.

I guess I'm not sure what you guys mean by "attribute." Am I on the right track?

Cathy C · Nov 14, 2009

The Lonely One said:
attributes--you mean like fidgets, movements, actions in the room? Or are we talking about dialog tags?

No, attributes, like who said what when there's a long conversation and the reader doesn't know who said what. I've read books where I've had to go back and read a full page to see who started first because there's no obvious attributes.

Oh, and another thing to consider is: Have you made the speech patterns different enough that you can tell who's talking WITHOUT knowledge the plot? Whether it's a "catch phrase" or a word or two the person always uses because of an foreign accent or dialect difference---that's another way to work in the person speaking without relying on movements.

Judg · Nov 14, 2009

Using the character names in dialogue sounds clumsy and contrived if they wouldn't do it in real life. We use people's names in times of more intense emotion, or when we want to persuade or manipulate someone.

Kalyke · Nov 14, 2009

Beats. I looked it up once. Mike crossed his legs, "sounds like a plan." is a beat. It is an "action attribute" so to speak. I think it is perfecty legitimate, and those people confused by it are probably confused by everything. If you are writing for YA you might consider dealing with your attributes differently. I do not know how savvy young readers are to changing diologue. http://research-writing-techniques.suite101.com/article.cfm/use_beats_to_bring_your_dialogue_to_life

When my writing totally confuses someone I first start to ask them if they read, what sorts of books they read, how many per year and so on. I find my writing tends to confuse people who do not read much. I'm not interested in them. I'm not on a education crusade.

maestrowork · Nov 14, 2009

People should read more, if they get confused by this.

Slushie · Nov 14, 2009

The best way to avoid tags? Establish character. Then the reader's Brane can go "X must have said that" given a certain context.

The Lonely One · Nov 14, 2009

EyeSeaAll said:
The best way to avoid tags? Establish character. Then the reader's Brane can go "X must have said that" given a certain context.

Context is your friend.

Bufty · Nov 15, 2009

In most dialogue someone is trying to find out something - if the reader knows who is trying to find out what there shouldn't be too much difficulty in identifying who's speaking.

In a group, conversations between two people are the easiest to follow so one solution is to let the important part(s) of the conversation flow back and forth between two individuals and keep interruptions from others to a minimum.

Clarity and flow difficulties often arise where there is no end purpose to the conversation, it's badly structured and/or there are too many distracting/pointless interruptions and tags.

Reading more can cure most of these problems.

Lady Ice · Nov 15, 2009

Make sure the conversation's a proper exchange. If people are just randomly saying things, it's natural for the reader to either get confused or just zone out.

ladyinpink · Nov 15, 2009

im happy to critique for you if that would help. just send me a message.

C.M.C. · Nov 15, 2009

I wrote a book without a single tag in it, so I would tell anyone who mandates their use to keep their opinions as such. You can't write to people's attention spans, they don't have them.

Jamesaritchie · Nov 15, 2009

If readers don't get that example, you need different readers.

ladyinpink · Nov 15, 2009

Kisatchie said:
I often have the characters use the names of the ones they're talking to, in order to keep things clear:

"Let's go to a movie, Gina."
"No, Dave, I want to listen to National Public Radio."
"Are you crazy?"
"What's wrong with that?"
"They're overrun with liberals," Dave said.
"So what? I like listening to classical music."
"A good Marx brothers movie is much better."
I've seen them all twice," Gina said.
"Well, I'm going to Burger King."
"Have fun, Dave. I won't wait up."

be careful not to overdo it. Only have the speaker use the other person name if they really would when talking.

maestrowork · Nov 15, 2009

If someone says "Ray" every time he talks to me, he's going to irritate the heck out of me.

bonitakale · Nov 15, 2009

"He said," should be almost invisible to the reader. You have to place it right, though.

I have read books in which I could swear that either (a) a line got lost in typestting, or (b) the author got confused about who said what. Makes for uncomfortable reading. I'd rather have an attribute or two!

In my opinion, one thing to do is to avoid having your characters just sit and talk. As much as possible, have them talk while walking, while eating, while setting up the scenery, while feeding the dog, or giving the cat its shots or pulling weeds or winding bandages or packing suitcases, etc. That gives you more action tags to use, more opportunities to illustrate character, and perhaps a chance to further the plot.

"Cheryl came out of the house about two a.m." Mrs. Brimble yanked up a plant. "Do you think this is a weed?"
"Looks like a tomato to me."
"Oh, well, too late now." She tossed it in the wheelbarrow. "It was two a.m., I know, because I got up to see if Edgar was home yet, and I looked out the window."

Kisatchie · Nov 15, 2009

Please notice that every line of dialog doesn't have the person's name. I will use a person'e name in real conversation as a sign of respect.

ladyinpink · Nov 15, 2009

it was noted. just in the places i saw it used it did not seem like a place people would generally use it. i use names in dialogue only when trying to impart a certain impact (which has nothing to do with respect in my case)

http://andimarquette.com/?p=81

maestrowork · Nov 15, 2009

Kisatchie said:
Please notice that every line of dialog doesn't have the person's name. I will use a person'e name in real conversation as a sign of respect.

Noted, but some just feel extraneous, and they don't sound real.

"Let's go to a movie, Gina."
"No, Dave, I want to listen to National Public Radio."

-- If only two people are speaking to each other, usually, they don't "Gina--Dave" like that.

"Are you crazy?"
"What's wrong with that?"
"They're overrun with liberals," Dave said.

-- "he" would be fine instead of naming Dave again.

"So what? I like listening to classical music."
"A good Marx brothers movie is much better."
I've seen them all twice," Gina said.

-- is there a reason why you add a tag for Gina here? It's very clear they've been taking turns, and who is speaking which line.

"Well, I'm going to Burger King."
"Have fun, Dave. I won't wait up."

-- the "Dave" here, on the other hand, sounds real and natural. So keep it.

EFCollins · Nov 15, 2009

maestrowork said:
If someone says "Ray" every time he talks to me, he's going to irritate the heck out of me.

But, Ray, whatever do you mean? You don't like hearing your own name, Ray?

That's just ridiculous Ray. You can't go through conversations without hearing your own name every once in a while, Ray.

Ray, you know you agree. You agree, don't you Ray?

In my own work, I tend to leave out tags as much as possible. Some say "talking heads" but this is not so. If you set up the conversation properly, and your characters' voices are definitive enough, there should be no problem with a reader knowing who is speaking and responding. Yes, they may need a visual cue every once in a while, but the mannerisms of speech in the characters is, to me, far more important.

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