Critique Services

[popmuze]

Before sending out my manuscript to an editorial/critique service, I may be paranoid, but is there something I should get from them to protect me against theft of intellectual property?

I'm not sure what they could steal, other than the title, the ideas, the entire manuscript, etc. but can someone tell me if getting a release in writing is a) standard practice and b) any kind of real protection.

[l.stormgaye]

If you have one, let your drunk uncle read it. He's cheaper, saner and his opinion is worth a helluva lot more than a critic's.

[AdamH]

LOL! Drunk Uncle's rule! Throw in that his background is scottish and I think you've got the ultimate "feedback" machine.

popmuse: I read in the Writer's Market book something that could help you out. Ideas can't be copyrighted or protected no matter what. Two people out there can have a great idea of a boy wizard battling an evil wizard that killed his parents. One will write Harry Potter, the other would be something else entirely because they both have different styles.

You can copyright the manuscript for the added protection but I read that it's not necessary because it becomes your intellectual property as soon as you write it and as long as you have a record as proof when you write it. Some people use the "poor man's" copyright, which is mail your manuscript to yourself so that you get it back in a sealed envelope stamped with a date from the post office.

As for titles, I'm not sure. I guess it all depends. Having a common word as a title like, say, "The Bird". I wouldn't think you could because who knows how many stories out there are simply titled that way. But something like "Farenheit 451". How many people are really going to use that title again?

I don't think it's good etiquette or business sense to get a waiver signed by the person critiquing it not to steal your work. Any legit editor/critique service will protect your work because if they don't it's their name on the line. And they're offering their services as a business.

Not to be naive and say that there aren't scrupulous criminals out there that could do that. I'd say the chances are slim. If anyone does steal your work (again very small chance), I'm sure you'd be shouting to the rafters to warn any other writers for not dealing with whoever did.

Also, I think any honest critique service that gets a waiver from a writer protecting their work would be offended at the assumption that they didn't do honest work.

I'd say do your research. Ask other writers on this board who've had good experiences with critique services for suggestions. You've got a wealth of knowledge and experience to pull from on these boards. Just dive right in. :)

[Carlene]

From what I understand, one cannot copyright a title. Anyone?

[zornhau]

Before sending out my manuscript to an editorial/critique service,

Find a good workshop/crit group. The human contacts you'll make will be more useful, and better for you. You can buy them all drinks using the money you were going to waste on the editorial service.

[Jamesaritchie]

Before sending out my manuscript to an editorial/critique service, I may be paranoid, but is there something I should get from them to protect me against theft of intellectual property?

I'm not sure what they could steal, other than the title, the ideas, the entire manuscript, etc. but can someone tell me if getting a release in writing is a) standard practice and b) any kind of real protection.

No one is going to steal your work. What on earth would they do with it? Stealing unpubished writing doesn't even make sense.

If your really worried about it, then register the work before you mail it, but no one, anywhere, wants your writing until and unless a publisher buys it and it become famous.

But I'd save my money on the editorial/critique service. Learn to do these things yourself. The track record of novels sent to such places is nothing short of horrific. If your novel is publishable, you don't need the service, and if it isn't publishable, a thousand such services won't make it so.

[Christine N.]

I agree (I'm agreeing with James alot lately).. join a critique group or online circle. One of the best ways to learn writing is by reading and critiquing others work. You begin to see where your own is good and bad by seeing it in someone else's.

And it's free :)

[victoriastrauss]

Before sending out my manuscript to an editorial/critique service, I may be paranoid, but is there something I should get from them to protect me against theft of intellectual property?Theft of unpublished work is so rare as to be functionally nonexistent. It's not until your work is exposed to a wide audience (i.e., published) that you need to worry.

The same rule applies to independent editors as to agents and publishers: a reputable individual or company wouldn't risk their reputation by stealing. A non-reputable individual or company couldn't do anything with your work even if they did steal it, because they have no publishing industry connections (and in any case are usually only interested in your wallet, not your book).

Hiring an independent editor is an often very expensive proposition that offers no guarantees. The best editor can't turn a bad manuscript into a good one, or even a mediocre manuscript into an excellent one. And even a good manuscript improved by careful editing may not become publishable as a result. Quality is only one of many things that factor into a publishing offer.

A second (or third) perspective is essential; I don't think any writer, no matter how accomplished a self-editor they are, can be entirely objective about their own work. But you don't necessarily have to pay for it--other alternatives (if available) can be just as effective. Publishers and agents, by the way, will not be impressed to learn that a work has been "professionally" edited; there are so many unqualified editors out there that it's more likely they'll assume that you've been duped. If you do decide to pay for an editing service, don't mention it in your query.

Titles aren't covered by copyright law.

- Victoria

[popmuze]

Lots of good stuff to chew over!
This particular service is very cheap (perhaps you get what you pay for) and the first chapter is free!
As far as my background, I am extensively published, but not as an adult novelist. I've had a few readings from editors and agents, with all sorts of positive and some negative feedback (based on readings of anywhere from a chapter to 100 pages). Nobody has read the entire manuscript and while I do know a few writers, I've been thus far reluctant to burden any of them with the task of not only reading my book, but giving me the kind of detail I need to solve whatever problems and bring out the great things lurking in it.
In my experience, even editors and agents don't do this kind of thing anymore like in the good old days of Hemingway and Fitzgerald and their editors. What I'm looking for is someone I can bounce ideas off, like "maybe it isn't his baby!" or "do you think the allusions to the romantic poets work or just sound silly?"

[Cathy C]

Very often you get what you pay for, popmuze. But tell you what -- since the first chapter is free with them I'll make you a deal. Send me the first chapter as well. I'll read it for free too, and you can compare notes of the two. Then you'll know if they're doing a good job.

Genre doesn't matter (although please tell me what it is SUPPOSED to be), and I'll try to get it back to you in the next few weeks. PM me for my e-mail addy.

:)

[popmuze]

This is extremely kind of you! As soon as I figure out how to PM, I will email you the chapter.

[aruna]

popmuze,
just to give you another view - I have had excellent results with a freelance editorial critique service; she even passed my ms straight on to an agent, who got me a mainstream publisher in the wink of an eye. It seems to me that in the US they have a disreputable reputation, whereas in the UK (where I live) it's just the opposite - there are several very good ones, and for very many published authors that was the first step - before even looking for an agent. In therwords, the British critique services on the whole have excellent track records. Many of them here are actually scouts for agents, looking for talent. Many have worked in publishing houses themselves and so have networked with agents and publishers and can recommend you to someone, or help you find the right contacts. All this, of course, is assuming you have a really good manuscript,, that just needs work you can't yet identify. As others have said, there are many manuscripts that will never be made publishable. The trouble is, the writer can't tell the difference!

We have had many discussions onthis subject on AW and opinions are divided. I personally found that using a good critique service was the very best thing to helping me get my manuscript perfect for submission. I paid about £650 for a 150k manuscript but the detailed critique I got in return was priceless.

Anyway, good luck.

[Jamesaritchie]

Lots of good stuff to chew over!
This particular service is very cheap (perhaps you get what you pay for) and the first chapter is free!
As far as my background, I am extensively published, but not as an adult novelist. I've had a few readings from editors and agents, with all sorts of positive and some negative feedback (based on readings of anywhere from a chapter to 100 pages). Nobody has read the entire manuscript and while I do know a few writers, I've been thus far reluctant to burden any of them with the task of not only reading my book, but giving me the kind of detail I need to solve whatever problems and bring out the great things lurking in it.
In my experience, even editors and agents don't do this kind of thing anymore like in the good old days of Hemingway and Fitzgerald and their editors. What I'm looking for is someone I can bounce ideas off, like "maybe it isn't his baby!" or "do you think the allusions to the romantic poets work or just sound silly?"

Don't do what kind of thing? An editors job has always been to edit novels. This is what editors are paid to do. I thnk you need to look deeper into exactly what editors did for Hemingway and Fitzgerald. Those guys were great writers, and I used to know an editor who worked with Hemingway.

There seems to be this really strange idea around today that writers used to be bums who couldn't write anything without nine editors to rework everything they did, and that in some fairyland of yesteryear, editors not only had to rewrite everything a writer sent in, but did so out of the goodness of their hearts. It's nonsense.

There were a tiny handful of editors in the old days who did extensive rewriting and editing on the novels of a handful of writers. Today, there are still a tiny handful of editors who do extensive rewriting and editing for a handful of writers.

But darned few writers needed it in the old days, and darned few writers need it today. Those that do get just as much help today as they ever did. And thos ethat do need it today have almost zero chance of getting it from a critique/editing service. Just like yesteryear, writer need to learn how to do these things for themselves. When they get close, agents and editors take over.

I don't know where this weird notion came from the in some mythical yesteryear editors were so much better and did so much more than editors do today, but it's a myth.

It generally isn't difficult to dispell the myth with a little legwork, either. Universities all over the country have collections that contain the first through the final drafts of all the fiction thousands of writers wrote during their lifetimes. When you pour through these collections, the myth is dispelled in a moment. In fact, as often as not, you see draft after draft that was better than the published version a heavy-handed editor worked on.

I strongly suspect this nonsense got started solely because of the way Maxwell Perkins reworked and trned Thomas Wolfe's huge stanck of manuscript pages into novels.

I also strongly suspect most of those who make such clams have never, ever seen a manuscript after one of today's editor got through with it, and they sure as heck haven't seen many those editors of the mythical yesteryear editied. Or have never written anything good enough for a decent agent or editror to offer suggestions on. Anyone who has knows better than to say today's editors don't work as hard as those of yesteryear.

Or they're in the business of making money from new writers by offering critique and editing services.

If you've already published fiction you should know everything you need to know to get a novel right. And vertainlt more than what nine out of ten critique/editing services know. And absolutely enough to put your novel in the hands or real experts, which means selling agents and editors who actually work for publishers.

No agent and no editor has ever said "This novel has real possibilities, but, sigh, it needs a few changes, so I'm not going to bother with it."

The vast majority of hired "editors" and critiquers could screw up a free breakfast, and the main thing they all have in common is that novel they edit and critique are great at drawing rejection slips.

If yu do go this route, do not tell an agent or editor that you've done so. It does not, contrary to what hired "editors" and critiquers tell you, make a favorable impression on anyone.

And if your novel is really any good, be prepared for the first agent or editor who sees it to ask for changes. . .and odds are good the changes they ask for will be the exact reverse of what your hired "editor" or critiquer told you to do. Agents and editors want what they want, and they want it the way they want it, which very seldom seems to be the way hired "editors" and critiquers want it.

Unfortunately, you don't always get what you pay for, as anyone who has fallen for some of the various internet scams will attest. With darned few exceptions, handing off a manuscript to a hirded "editor" or a paid "critiquer" amounts to the same thing.

There will always be those looking for ways to get money, and there will always be those willing to give them money.

[aruna]

James, you seem to feel very strongly on this subject, and I wonder why?
Certainly, a paid critique service has been a godsned for very many published authors who have nop other resource, or even for those who choose this way as the mosyt hands on. There are very many routes to getting published: there are good people in every priofession, and sharks. There are shark egants, and shark publishers. There are shark critique services, but there are good ones, who can help a beginning writer no end.

Popmuze obviously feels the need for a professional look at his/her work; I think that's a good impulse and should not be discouraged. What he/she needs is advice on finding the right person for the job, not a cold shower. There are enough writers out there who believe every word they write is gold.

As for editors doing less content editing these days: I have personally heard this from the mouth of an editor. She is the editor who worked with books like "Girl with a Pearl Earring" and "The Calcutta Chromosome" and many other bestsellers. She is up to her ears in work and she would much, much prefer a manuscript that is already in excellent form, than one that is going to steal hours of her time to get it into shape.

The very first agent i had, and she was one who had previously worked at Penguin, told me exactly that - that these days, publishing editors have far less time to work with authors, and that manuscripts should be almost perfect when submitted. So it isn't ONLY a myth.

Sure, routined authors no longer need the help of an editor to get a book shipshape. But then again, I've read many a famous writer's third and fourth book, where I've felt a red pen would have made it much better. But when everyone knows the book wil sell anyway, less care is taken. I certainly felt this with my second and third books.

[popmuze]

If I might jump in here: in terms of working with editors, having had approximately two or three per book over the course of eleven non-fiction and fiction titles, I can attest to the fact that often you don't even get to meet your editor before they've left the company to take a job in construction or go back to grad school to become a lawyer.
In the past I've had some good back and forth relationships with agents and editors. But none in the last decade, when shrinking pub lists make it harder for anything but the potential blockbuster to get attention.

Often when an editor or an agent is reading a Ms. they're basically thinking of how commercial is it. This is not a bad thing, ultimately, but what do you do when you've got a 300 page book and you need someone to offer a readers eye? I've been in workshops, but, at twenty pages a week, that kind of feedback would take too long.

I'm certainly not willing to pay thousands of dollars for a random opinion, but if the rate is inexpensive enough, a pair of outside eyes seems necessary at this point, if only to make sure that at least one other person ever gets to read it.

Ironically, in today's world, I can envision a scenario where the book gets bought without changes, published without reviews, and I still never get any feedback.

[brinkett]

Sure, routined authors no longer need the help of an editor to get a book shipshape. But then again, I've read many a famous writer's third and fourth book, where I've felt a red pen would have made it much better. But when everyone knows the book wil sell anyway, less care is taken. I certainly felt this with my second and third books.
I said this same thing in another thread (on the same subject!). I can think of a couple of authors off the top of my head whose skills have either deteriorated with each book or they aren't being edited as thoroughly. Their first few books were much cleaner--their later ones have too much flab and contain basic mistakes. I suspect that since they're established, they don't get as much editing, which is a shame because they need it.

As far as editing/critiquing services go, I agree with you. If someone has the money and wants to do it, I don't know what the fuss is about. Yes, there are bad editors out there, but there are good ones too. Like everything, do your homework first and get recommendations from people.

Something that's never mentioned when this comes up is that some of these freelance editors also edit for publishers, and some are published authors themselves. They're not all hacks trying to make a quick buck off hapless writers.

[ted_curtis]

Another option is to do a manuscript exchange with another writer. It's "free" montiarily, but costs you time in editing another work. I'd just suggest you do a trial first chapter before committing, so that no one has unexpected surprises.


Unless you know a ton about the paid critiquer (like prior clients who have been published in your genre), you'll probably get as valid an opinion.

Ted

[Kasey Mackenzie]

Some people use the "poor man's" copyright, which is mail your manuscript to yourself so that you get it back in a sealed envelope stamped with a date from the post office.

Please note that the validity of using the "poor man's" copyright is a myth! This will not stand up in a court of law under today's copyright laws. You can do a search on the Absolute Write forums for poor man's copyright and should see other, more extensive discussions of this. Pay especial attention to the posts by Jaws, who is a literary attorney with extensive experience in this field.

Just wanted to make sure nobody's under a false impression in this situation. Also: let me reiterate that you do NOT need to copyright your writing BEFORE it is published. Doing so will only make you appear amateurish to agents and publishers. It is the publisher's job to copyright your writing, but only upon publication, not before.

[victoriastrauss]

This particular service is very cheap (perhaps you get what you pay for) and the first chapter is free!I think you do get what you pay for. One thing that qualified editors have in common with scam editors is that they cost--a lot.

Marginal editors--those who are well-intentioned but have little or no commercial publishing experience and often will provide you with little more than glorified copy editing--are usually the ones that are cheap.

- Victoria

[Christine N.]

And that's the problem in a nutshell, Ted. Without major credentials to back them up, a professional critique is just an opinion that you've paid for. I just find it a shame that some authors feel the need to pay for something that may not help them career-wise. If they pay and the pro says "it's great, make these changes and it'll sell no problem", and then the author racks up rejection after rejection anyway...

And I also agree that some bigger authors later works are worse than earlier onesl, but whether that's for lack of editing or b/c the houses are on them to produce quickly, I don't know. Faster is not necessarily better. Well developed ideas take time, something I think some publishing houses put aside for the bottom line - they figure readers will buy anything with that author's name on it.

Most of the multi-published authors on this board seem to feel the same way about it, so I generally follow their advice. And I can understand their point of view.

[popmuze]

Without going into any further detail about the pros and cons of a critique service, I am getting the general sense that I needn't worry about discussing things like "Theft of intellectual property," etc.

By the way, I'm not looking for line by line editing, but rather comments on how the voice, characters and plot are working throughout, whether the beginning has a strong enough hook, whether it loses steam toward the middle, and if the last 100 pages are as riveting to a reader as they were to me when I was writing them.

[Bufty]

If I might jump in here: in terms of working with editors, having had approximately two or three per book over the course of eleven non-fiction and fiction titles, I can attest to the fact that often you don't even get to meet your editor before they've left the company to take a job in construction or go back to grad school to become a lawyer.
In the past I've had some good back and forth relationships with agents and editors. But none in the last decade, when shrinking pub lists make it harder for anything but the potential blockbuster to get attention.

Often when an editor or an agent is reading a Ms. they're basically thinking of how commercial is it. This is not a bad thing, ultimately, but what do you do when you've got a 300 page book and you need someone to offer a readers eye? I've been in workshops, but, at twenty pages a week, that kind of feedback would take too long.

I'm certainly not willing to pay thousands of dollars for a random opinion, but if the rate is inexpensive enough, a pair of outside eyes seems necessary at this point, if only to make sure that at least one other person ever gets to read it.

Ironically, in today's world, I can envision a scenario where the book gets bought without changes, published without reviews, and I still never get any feedback.

Forgive my naivete, Popmuse, but with your past writing experience I can't follow why you need any feedback at all. Won't you get feedback when it's published, or at least an inkling that something may be wrong when a prospective Agent or Publisher looks at it and rejects it?

I am way short on your experience but I know I've written a good novel. I know I have good characters, it holds up in the middle and I know it keeps the tension going to an exciting climax. I may be wrong, of course, and I have the usual rejections so far, but I put that down to my not yet having mastered the darned Query letter.

[Christine N.]

I agree, to each his own, as long as it's with eyes wide open. And I don't think that later books of authors with previous really good works receive less editing, I think that there is less there to begin with, probably because the house is on them to meet a deadline. The editor has to work with what's written, and time is a constraint, there may not be time to make all the edits that the work might require.
See now, Brinkett, I responded to your post, and it's gone now. So everyone's going to think I'm nuts. LOL

[GPatten]

I’m certain you’ve all heard of Melanie Mills/M.W. Mills Literary Agent. This is the (Melanie Mills (d.b.a. M.W. Mills Literary Agent, of Myrtle Beach, SC) was the US alias of Elisabeth von Hullessem (real name Lisa Roswitha Hackney)

She is quite famous now that we have this Literary Agency Contract Alert. (SFWA has posted an alert regarding the so-called “perpetual representation” clause inserted into author-publisher contracts by at least one major literary agency.)

She’s been one scary Agent who had a bogus sideline business of a critiquing editing service. I ran into her a long time ago, I think five years ago when I submitted a piece of crap for publishing. Upon giving me my first treasured advice on rewriting it in third person, past tense verb usage, I learned how to get started, but she wanted me to send it to her for critiquing, or to another service that turned out to be her other bogus sideline business of a critiquing editing service.

I didn’t get involved with her and had some help with a lady friend of mine who is a retired school principal. I needed a lot of help with punctuations and grammar usage. I am horribly lacking in that department. Sigh!

She’s now almost blind and I approaching that state quite fast myself. So just how the heck does one who lives at the end of the world and the end of a dirt road get help in that. I’ve tried to study this subject and I have a very hard time understanding the subject of punctuation, commas, and apostrophe ‘S’ is a total mystery to me. Sigh! Should I give up?


<<Edit>> I’m unable to drive further than a few miles and I can’t chance the fast pace of a large city nearby to find a writing group who could be of help.

[brinkett]

See now, Brinkett, I responded to your post, and it's gone now. So everyone's going to think I'm nuts. LOL
To whom it may concern: Christine N. is not nuts. Her response to my now deleted post makes sense.

About not having time for all the edits--this equates to the published work receiving less editing than a former one, since the former one would have incorporated all the edits. I agree, though, that the quality of the work turned in may not be up to snuff compared to former ones, which is too bad.

[Mike Coombes]

Whilst I agree with Mr Ritchie that if it's good enough, it's good enough, if it's not it never will be, but writers are notoriously blind about their work. The amount of stuff going through the POD houses is testament to the fact that the writers know better than the publishing houses.

An editorial/critiquing service can be a useful tool, like any other. There are scammers out there, and there are angels.

If anyone feels that way inclined, I would suggest http://www.kldionne.com/ .

I don't have any afiliation to her (other than the fact that we used to work together on NFG magazine) but I do know she is honest, and I have seen her work.

[aruna]

I think you do get what you pay for. One thing that qualified editors have in common with scam editors is that they cost--a lot.

Marginal editors--those who are well-intentioned but have little or no commercial publishing experience and often will provide you with little more than glorified copy editing--are usually the ones that are cheap.

- Victoria

As I said before, they are much cheaper in the UK, and still good quality. Many of them are editors who have left publishing houses out of frustration, as the work there is increasingly dominated by sales and marketing departments, and they are forced to work more with commercial goals insight than literary. (not that the two are exclusive - but all too often good writers are dumped when success does not come immediately.) Such editors often go into agenting, or freelance editing. They havce years of real experience behind them plus the contacts to help the aspiringauthor - if he/she is good enough - to the next stage.

[aruna]

And that's the problem in a nutshell, Ted. Without major credentials to back them up, a professional critique is just an opinion that you've paid for. I just find it a shame that some authors feel the need to pay for something that may not help them career-wise. If they pay and the pro says "it's great, make these changes and it'll sell no problem", and then the author racks up rejection after rejection anyway...

I would never choose an editor without professional credentials; this shoud be the very first thing a writer looks for. And such an editor wil not make false promises. She will say that she doesn't think it can ever be publishable; it's then up to the writer either to pay the fee in order to improve the writing, or to give up.

I was extremely lucky. My first agent had just started out and so did not have many clients; she spent a lot of time working on my first novel with me, helping me to improve it; and it was all free. It was like a one-on-one writing course, specific to my manuscipt - what could ever be better, for a starting-out writer! And all free.

Unfortunately, not everyone has such luck; agents don't have the time to work through a promising ms with an author, and which of us has a friend qualified enough to do it for free?

And I also agree that some bigger authors later works are worse than earlier onesl, but whether that's for lack of editing or b/c the houses are on them to produce quickly, I don't know. Faster is not necessarily better. Well developed ideas take time, something I think some publishing houses put aside for the bottom line - they figure readers will buy anything with that author's name on it.



I know for a fact that my two second books needed at least two months more of work. When they went into publication they were adequate, but no more, and I knew myself that they needed more editing. My editor knew this as well. She just didn't have the time; the deadline was waiting.

[JerseyGirl1962]

GPatten,

Have you ever considered any of the online workshops? There are free ones, although I can't vouch for any of them (others here probably can, however).

http://www.critters.org

Critters Workshop - This is one of the better known ones, and it's free. If you write speculative fiction--sci fi, fantasy, horror--this is probably a good one to consider.

http://www.hatrack.com/writers/index.shtml

Hatrack River Writers' Group - Founded by Orson Scott Card (a famous sci fi writer) but not run by him. I didn't see anything that suggested a fee of any kind. What they ask you to do is join the forums, get to know other writers (and they, you), and then after a certain period of time, submit the first 13 lines of your manuscript. (I found the link on the SFWA website, so this seems to be legit.)

http://fmwriters.com/index.html

Used to be Holly Lisle's Forward Motion, but she gave up running it last year, I think (wanted to devote more time to her writing). It's now Forward Motion Writers' Community, and it says right on the homepage that everything is free, including critiques. (Link found on the SFWA website.)

http://www.critters.org/resources.html

And if you have no idea how to critique, these are a bunch of articles on what to say, etc., on the Critters Workshop site.

You can even try Googling something like "online critique workshops" and see what you come up with.

Hope this helps. :)

~Nancy