That's ridiculous. Oh, thank you for opressing me, what a favor! I know you're being selfless...oh wait, are you doing this so YOU go to heaven too? There are life choices. Atheism is not suicide.
Why do you believe what you believe?
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That's ridiculous. Oh, thank you for opressing me, what a favor! I know you're being selfless...oh wait, are you doing this so YOU go to heaven too? There are life choices. Atheism is not suicide.
Ruv Draba
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Not to speak for MGB, but I also believe that meaning is where you find it. Here's what I think...
All our lives have many stories. They're actually many competing stories. For every hero-story I can tell about me, I can find a villain-story too -- even about the exact same events. So I can't ascribe meaning and purpose to concordance with a single, authoritative moral narrative...
What I have to do instead is to observe the objective narrative unfolding -- the facts and feelings and impacts -- and question what I do... see if I can do something better, see if there's a better understanding of good that I'm missing.
That in itself is a very purposeful activity. It doesn't have some idealised end-state like 'Heaven' or 'Oneness with the Ineffable'... but it has targets and milestones and progress. And I find those idealised end-states either meaningless or needlessly encumbering anyway. (Does anyone know how to plan an eternal life? I sure don't.)
What keeps me from getting lazy or kidding myself or going in loops? I could say discipline, commitment, empathy, community, my sense of integrity etc... but I think that the real answer is:
Nothing... same as for theists.
Actually, you just clarified in the last sentence of your post, and I was the one who didn't get it. I was trying to say that I saw a substantial difference between finding a series of meanings along the way, and what MGB may be saying. From this and many of his other posts--and maybe this is quite unfair, feel free to rap my knuckles if so--I get a disquieting sense of no meaning, a really nihilistic voice. And I would wonder how one conducts life given those internal conditions.
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Of course there are life choices, and of course atheism isn't suicide. I'm not sure why you feel the need to say that?
I don't know what your problem is. You seem to think religious people are incapable of being genuine in their beliefs and in their concern for non believers. I never suggested we should be grateful for being preached at, but I see no reason to abuse someone who is just trying to help me, even if that help is unwanted or unhelpful.
As for the meaning of life. I don't think there is such a thing. It's a matter of motivation. You feel motivated to pursue happiness, companionship, excitement, contentment, comfort, etc. etc.
I personally feel that the concept of eternal life makes life less meaningful.
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If somebody persists after I tell them that I'm not interested, then they deserve any abuse I choose to heap upon them. I say this as somebody who has been given over 65536 copies of a Chick tract called "Dark Dungeons" over the last 25 years.
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Imagine you worshipped a God, any God. (Not sure if you do, or don't, just imagine for a second.)
If an atheist told you that when you die, you will be molested by rapist gnomes for all of eternity unless you foreswear God, how would you feel?
Not so good?
Congratulations, you now know why preaching is so annoying. Everyone has a right to believe the craziest shit they can come up with. Just don't be surprised when people don't want to hear about it.
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I believe he was talking about "meaning" in the sense of greater meaning--i.e, I was put here by something for a "purpose", which must and will be accomplished, and without me here something wouldn't be right.
Which is pretty much a load, you don't need to have a greater meaning to enjoy life. Enjoying a juicy steak is reason enough to live.
johnnysannie
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As the target of too damn many Chick tracts myself, it is my personal conviction that anyone who attempts to force their narrow and blighted views on another human being deserves any abuse the recipient feels warranted.
I hate Chick tracts.
But there's no need to prove the non-existence of god. Any more than there is a need to prove the existence of Russell's teapot, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
This harks back to what I gave as my reason for not believing. Not believing is the default state; a lack of god is the default state. If you want to talk proof, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim of god's existence.
Yes, god's existence is unknown, but so are a mind-bogglingly large number of other things that would be rejected out of hand, were I to suggest they do exist.
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Non-believers (of Christianity) will often complain that Christians are "condemning them to hell" because they maintain that a belief is Christ is the only way to heaven.
However, an atheist (who does not believe in heaven, hell, or a soul) maintains that when I die, I will simply cease to exist, thereby condemning me to an eternity of nothingness.
I don't see a fundamental difference except that the Christian is offering a solution to the best of his or her knowledge.
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I see a fundamental difference. From an atheist's point of view, he's offering facts while the Christian is offering a fantasy. As far as any of us knows, death is the end. You can hope for an afterlife if you want, but as far as any of us knows for sure, this physical life is all any of us get.
The atheist's solution is simple: if this is all any of us get, let's make the most of it. If you want heaven, build it here on earth.
The only fundamental difference I've experienced is that a Christian might (instead of will because not all Christians do this) come, univited, into your personal space and attempt to convince you that they're right and you're damned for all eternity unless you change your life and might become insistent or irate if you're not responsive. Atheists don't.
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Exactly. I've never had an atheist knock on my door and asked me if I realized that the existence of a personal god was extremely unlikely. Then again, I've never had a Jew knock on my door and ask me if I've accepted Moses as my personal lawgiver, either.
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And from the Christian's point of view, he is offering truth and the atheist is offering fantasy.
The Christian's solution is equally simple: If you want heaven, both now and the after-life, put your life in the hands of Christ.
But when I said "fundamental difference" I was referring to the offense that some non-believers have over being told they will "go to hell", while at the same time they are willing to tell believers that the believers will cease to exist. If the first is offensive, then so is the second.
Then what you're saying is that it's not the message itself that's offensive but rather the manner that it is delivered?
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That may be the case, but I refuse to care. I do not try to persuade religious people to abandon their beliefs. Some of them come to me and try to persuade me to adopt theirs, even though I warn them straight away that I am not interested in such discussions, and have already rejected their beliefs.
So, if you're a Christian, and you waste my time trying to tell me the Good News after I've told you that I've heard it before and don't believe it, then I don't give a shit if you're offended when I say that there probably isn't an afterlife, and that in all likelihood the void awaits us after death.
'Cos if you really annoy me, I'll be happy to wish inoperable colon cancer on you followed by the consignment of your consciousness to the frigid ever-night of intergalactic space.
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He may be saying that. I myself find the message offensive, as well as the delivery method. I respect your right to be a Christian, but insist on my right to hold Christianity in contempt.
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No, I merely expect them to have the common courtesy to back off when somebody says that they're not interested in discussing religion. I don't go around wearing a t-shirt that says, "ATHEIST". I don't broadcast it to the world. If you were to meet me on the street and try to talk religion with me, the first thing I'd say would be, "I'd rather not discuss that".
That's your cue to shut up, back off, and go try to save somebody else's soul. Or better yet, make damned sure of your own salvation. Didn't Jesus say something about dealing with the beam in your own eye before worrying about the speck of sawdust in somebody else's?
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Questions have consequences. Are you sure you want me to explain in detail why I despise the Christian religion?
I guess this is the part that confuses me. You expect common courtesy from Christians (that is, respecting your non-belief) while at the same time you hold their beliefs in contempt.
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