Writing is RE-Writing

[GonnaBeFamous]

I'm finishing up my 3rd revision of a spec script which was sort of biographical of things that happened to me a long time ago. The story had repetitiveness, too many characters, and the protagonist was too much unlike one. For the first 2 months I didn't think it needed much changing mainly just dialogue and minor tweaks. I take off 3 weeks spend time writing a different screenplay and come back to it and it takes me now 6 weeks of spending an hour or 2 of each day major rewriting and/or thinking of how I could do things differently. I butchered out over 20 pages and replaced them with over 10 pages of new scenes and changed certain aspects of the structure and it's much better. At first I wanted to protect it. Same thing with another screenplay I'm doing. You need to stop protecting things. If you take a few weeks off and look at it and it doesn't make sense or sounds stupid or pointless for the story, get rid of it. If you pause in your reading and think about it, imagine what someone who isn't biased will do?

I'm sure most of you know this, but thought I remind this since I think it's important.

[StephieM]

I agree. When you spend a lot of time on one script you become blind to your own mistakes. You want to think your script is the best thing you have ever written, but give it a few days and it doesn't look so great anymore.
My biggest problem in writing, is that I am a perfectionist, I will spend hours on one page just to get it right. ( which is a lot of wasted time), I have notebooks full of pages with one liners, it's crazy. But the truth is, it's never going to be perfect. No matter how many rewrites you do, no matter how much time you spend, there is always going to be something you want to change. I read somewhere that once you have your script as ready as it's going to get, it's best to hire someone else to type the final draft. I think it's like a dollar a page. The point is not to be stuck doing last minute changes, which could ultimately hurt your script rather than help it.

But like you said, writing is rewriting. But there has got to be a limit. Otherwise I'll be rewriting the rest of my life. :)

Steph

[GonnaBeFamous]

I agree. When you spend a lot of time on one script you become blind to your own mistakes. You want to think your script is the best thing you have ever written, but give it a few days and it doesn't look so great anymore.
My biggest problem in writing, is that I am a perfectionist, I will spend hours on one page just to get it right. ( which is a lot of wasted time), I have notebooks full of pages with one liners, it's crazy. But the truth is, it's never going to be perfect. No matter how many rewrites you do, no matter how much time you spend, there is always going to be something you want to change. I read somewhere that once you have your script as ready as it's going to get, it's best to hire someone else to type the final draft. I think it's like a dollar a page. The point is not to be stuck doing last minute changes, which could ultimately hurt your script rather than help it.

But like you said, writing is rewriting. But there has got to be a limit. Otherwise I'll be rewriting the rest of my life. :)

Steph

One thing I've been trying for a little bit is I take a month off btw each rewrites and work on SOMETHING ELSE. I'm an extreme noob soI can't say it works 100 percent, but I think after 4 to 6rewrites which takes 5 to 8 months, from start to finish, due to taking a month off between revisions will give you such a clear picture that you will hardly have to revise it by revision 6.

I do agree though that you can get stuck editing lins over and over, I've been doing that, but thats why I came up with a sytem like the above, it eliminates you from excessive overwriting lines day and day out for 6 months straight. INstead by taking extended breaks between rewrites and taking your mind onto rewriting or making a new script you won't be tempted to go back and change something cause you'll be focused on theother, you clear your mind completely of it for a month, then go back to it until its "OK" again.

[zagoraz]

Writing is re-writing, but I think there is still something to be said for your first, most original ideas. I try to keep as much of the first draft as I can, mainly because I spend so much time in prep that my re-writes only end up being minor tweaks anyway.

Billy Bob Thornton took his first draft of Sling Blade, made no changes and filmed it exactly as he wrote it. Won him an Oscar. Too bad we're not all Billy Bob Thorntons.

[Writer1]

Too bad we're not all Billy Bob Thorntons.

That is an INCREDIBLY scary thing!

[GonnaBeFamous]

Writing is re-writing, but I think there is still something to be said for your first, most original ideas. I try to keep as much of the first draft as I can, mainly because I spend so much time in prep that my re-writes only end up being minor tweaks anyway.

Billy Bob Thornton took his first draft of Sling Blade, made no changes and filmed it exactly as he wrote it. Won him an Oscar. Too bad we're not all Billy Bob Thorntons.

Not for me, what sounds good in the outline turns out to be a major overhaul for whatever reason by revision 2 or 3. I think I may have one script upcoming that may not have as much work, but I doubt it once I look at that one again I think its going to go through a dreded overhaul too and not just minor tweaks.

[GonnaBeFamous]

Sorry never could get into slingblade.

However Wizard of Oz is the greatest screenplay IMO probably ever. Guess what it had? Like 14 writers. Obviously all those rewrites did it good. Never underestimate a good overhaul. If all your doing is minor tweaks to your screenplay either you got REALLY lucky or you're just not admitting it's crap yet. :)

[zagoraz]

Screenwriting has nothing to do with luck. It's not like winning the lottery, which takes no skill, only a dollar. You aren't going to get lucky and sell a screenplay. There's a difference between good timing, which you will need to sell a spec, and luck.

That you would assume anyone's writing is crap without having ever read their work is presumptious and makes you sound tactless and amateurish. For all you know you could be talking to Charlie Kaufman here, and who's going to tell him his first drafts are crap?

All I merely did was bring up a good example of a film that was made without re-writes, a film that won the Academy Award for Best Screenplay that year. A film that was critically lauded. I'm not saying it's the 'better' way to do things. There is no right or wrong.

Screenwriting has more to do with God-given talent than some would like to believe. Talent can be nurtured to a point, but the fact is you either have it in you or you don't. I'd rather read a first draft by DPAT or Joe than a 15th draft by some of the writers who posted here in the past. You can write and re-write until you're blue in the face, but if it sucks it sucks. And I'm not saying that your writing sucks, I wouldn't presume as much. I've never read your writing, much like you've never read mine.

[icerose]

I must fall into the really easy going writer catagory because I try to get it right the first time so I can avoid endless re-writes. There is always some editing that needs to be done, but *shrug* I guess some writers are more obsessive than others. Not saying one is better than the other just saying that each of us have our own way of writing. And just because someone doesn't do extensive re-writing doesn't mean its bad writing, perhaps they just did a better job the first time around and didn't need six or ten wacks at it. To me writing is writing and re-writing is editing. Those are two different matters with me, perhaps because I hate editing.

Sara

[GonnaBeFamous]

I'll tell you why your wrong icerose.

You said it yourself, you HATE editing. Things we hate we find a REASON to not do even if it's subconcious. If you really look at your screenplay after the first draft no matter how much you thought about it before you put it on paper I guarantee it will need one major overhaul unless your lucky. I still disagree with the previous poster some screenplays you getlucky, meaning once in awhile you get a screenplay that you can't find much of anything wrong with it, others you think it over and go oh you need this and that done. And if the editing is significant enough it becomes a slightly different story.

[GonnaBeFamous]

Screenwriting has nothing to do with luck. It's not like winning the lottery, which takes no skill, only a dollar. You aren't going to get lucky and sell a screenplay. There's a difference between good timing, which you will need to sell a spec, and luck.

That you would assume anyone's writing is crap without having ever read their work is presumptious and makes you sound tactless and amateurish. For all you know you could be talking to Charlie Kaufman here, and who's going to tell him his first drafts are crap?

All I merely did was bring up a good example of a film that was made without re-writes, a film that won the Academy Award for Best Screenplay that year. A film that was critically lauded. I'm not saying it's the 'better' way to do things. There is no right or wrong.

Screenwriting has more to do with God-given talent than some would like to believe. Talent can be nurtured to a point, but the fact is you either have it in you or you don't. I'd rather read a first draft by DPAT or Joe than a 15th draft by some of the writers who posted here in the past. You can write and re-write until you're blue in the face, but if it sucks it sucks. And I'm not saying that your writing sucks, I wouldn't presume as much. I've never read your writing, much like you've never read mine.

I said either they are lucky or they are crap. If they are lucky then it isn't crap. LIke i said in my last post you can get lucky. It's up to the writer himself to learn if his work is crap or if its brilliant on first write. A great writers crap will be better then Joe schmoe down the street's crappy first draft. Some stories are so vivid and easy that you can easily do it without any tweaks. Others seem good at first and before you know it it hardly looks the same anymore. You're implying that because someone does one script well that they will always do that or vice o versa, sorry it doesn't work that way. :rolleyes:

I do agree with you about talent though. The first paragraph was all wrong and I think you just said it because you wanted to get on your soap box and hijack my thread. :D

[JustinoXXV]

I too think any screenplay after the first draft likely needs one major overhaul. You should get it read by industry professionals to see where it needs work. After your 2nd draft you probably would only need to tweak and edit.

[icerose]

I'll tell you why your wrong icerose.

You said it yourself, you HATE editing. Things we hate we find a REASON to not do even if it's subconcious. If you really look at your screenplay after the first draft no matter how much you thought about it before you put it on paper I guarantee it will need one major overhaul unless your lucky. I still disagree with the previous poster some screenplays you getlucky, meaning once in awhile you get a screenplay that you can't find much of anything wrong with it, others you think it over and go oh you need this and that done. And if the editing is significant enough it becomes a slightly different story.

You are welcome to read it if you want. I am terrible at judging my own work which is why I always get others to read it and help me work out the kinks. This has been read 4 times and no one offered any helpful suggestions or comments. So you are certainly welcome.

Sara

[zagoraz]

"You're implying that because someone does one script well that they will always do that or vice o versa, sorry it doesn't work that way."

Gonnabefamous,

Seriously, dude, are you making this stuff up as you go along? That makes no sense whatsoever. It's like telling Tiger Woods that he got lucky and landed the green two feet from the cup. He did it because he's done it a thousand times before. By learning, practice and repetition. Same with screenwriting. So you're wrong by saying if someone does one script well that they won't always do that. Tell that to the writers selling scripts one after the other, after years of dedication and struggle.

I fear you'll eventually discover that your seemingly self-created, all-knowing yet naive screenwriting ethos won't make you too many friends around here.

[GonnaBeFamous]

"You're implying that because someone does one script well that they will always do that or vice o versa, sorry it doesn't work that way."

Gonnabefamous,

Seriously, dude, are you making this stuff up as you go along? That makes no sense whatsoever. It's like telling Tiger Woods that he got lucky and landed the green two feet from the cup. He did it because he's done it a thousand times before. By learning, practice and repetition. Same with screenwriting. So you're wrong by saying if someone does one script well that they won't always do that. Tell that to the writers selling scripts one after the other, after years of dedication and struggle.

I fear you'll eventually discover that your seemingly self-created, all-knowing yet naive screenwriting ethos won't make you too many friends around here.


You're right to an extent. Read what I said closely, I said a good writer's crap on first draft wil be BETTER then someone else's lousy writing. Maybe you are right though, all rough drafts of every good writer is almost flawless. Am I being too presumptious? I doubt it. How do you even know a lot of these writers aren't throwing away half their stories?

[GonnaBeFamous]

I just confirmed what I said earlier today. I read a script that had only 1 revision after the original draft(And the revision was minor) and the thing was damn near hollwood quality(Well cheesy hollwood movies ;) ), I mean it wasn't probably PC enough for hollwood and I have to switch some of the scenes around and reduce one character trait that is showing up that I don't want to, but overall the thing is pretty damn good, the dialogue is cheesy, but its very snappy and the scenes are funny and it's a fast read and very hollwood comedesque(new word ;) ). I was shocked how much I liked it after all this time. On the contrary my first and 3rd script are getting rewritten like mad when i stepped away from them for awhile. You can get lucky and write a good script with minimal work. I seen the evidence. I'm convinced writing a good screenplay on first draft is luck. I actually planned this script out WAY less then the 3rd one and i'm doing 3 times as much rewriting and restructing on the 3rd one.

[JustinoXXV]

I don't think writing a good screenplay on first draft is lukk. If someone is able to write a good screenplay (at any draft), that means he or she had TALENT and that they had KNOWLEDGE of the craft.

Even if a professional screenwriter with a long list of box office hits throws away half of his/her stories, that doesn't mean they the screenwriter was lucky on the ones that were good.

Luck implies something which happens on a totally random basis. Like what good luck, I had, I just found 5 dollars. Or what good luck, you one the lottery. Luckk is something you have no control over. Luck requires no skill or ability.

A writer does have control over what he or she writers.

GonnaBeFamous, you claim you produced this high quality screenplay with minimal effort. But those are famous last words. Have any industrial professionals read and analyzed your work?

If you let people read your work, and if a lot of qualified people find the same flaws, that may indicate that you have more work to do than you'd like to admit.

[icerose]

I think you all take yourselves too seriously.

:poke:

I just write because I love to write and hope to make money from it too. Others have said I'm good at it so I see no reason to quit. I am exploring the screenwriting genre because my agent requested a script and I had no idea what I was doing. So I grabbed my friend and we co-wrote it and learned a lot of things along the way. Since then I have written another script and am working on another co-written script with my friend because she asked me.

Maybe I don't take myself serious enough, but I don't know. If you think your work is good, then go with it and test it against the industry. If you think it needs more work, work on it.

If you can afford to send your script to proofreaders for hundreds of dollars, more power to you, some of us can't. Some of us have very tight budgets that the stupid 20$ registration fee makes us cringe. Does it make us any less writers? No, it just means we have limited resources and we do what we can.

Anyway, I have rambled enough.

Sara

[Joe Calabrese]

I think we can all agree that different people can write at different levels and can come up with different levels of quality in few or many drafts. However, the story/concept weighs heavily on that too.

I've written a few scripts that were near perfect after the first draft and others that took a dozen stabs at it. Most times it takes two drafts and a few polishes.

Each script is different, with different nuances and paths to take. They have a life of their own which doesn't always go the way you conceived them.

Just like raising children, some kids need little nurturing and become self aware and independent quickly while other brats make you pull your hair out for years until they finally develop into their own.

You just to keep plugging away until you feel it's right.

But like dough, too much handling will make the bread stiff as a board.

You got to know when to hold em. You got to know when to fold em. Know when to walk away-- know when to run.

(Wow. Three analogies in one post. I think that's a record for me.)
:hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray:

[GonnaBeFamous]

I think we can all agree that different people can write at different levels and can come up with different levels of quality in few or many drafts. However, the story/concept weighs heavily on that too.

I've written a few scripts that were near perfect after the first draft and others that took a dozen stabs at it. Most times it takes two drafts and a few polishes.

Each script is different, with different nuances and paths to take. They have a life of their own which doesn't always go the way you conceived them.

Just like raising children, some kids need little nurturing and become self aware and independent quickly while other brats make you pull your hair out for years until they finally develop into their own.

You just to keep plugging away until you feel it's right.

But like dough, too much handling will make the bread stiff as a board.

You got to know when to hold em. You got to know when to fold em. Know when to walk away-- know when to run.

(Wow. Three analogies in one post. I think that's a record for me.)
:hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray: :hooray:


I agree that most take 2 major overhauls plus minor tweaks.

That last part is interesting about holding, I'm an advocate of during the rewrite to spend 2 to 6 weeks rewriting/polishing then walking away from it and forgetting about it for a month and then repeat over again 1 to 3 more times. Do you do anything similiar?

Anyways I was over presumptious yesterday about my screenplay(it doesn't look as nice once night fell ;) ). When I started to write down the things wrongwith it before I could fall asleep the list started growing ;), BUT i don't see large amounts of scene aditions and deletions like my other scripts. If you have to do a lot of deletes and replace or add scenes thats what I call a major rewrite.

[JustinoXXV]

"If you can afford to send your script to proofreaders for hundreds of dollars, more power to you, some of us can't. Some of us have very tight budgets that the stupid 20$ registration fee makes us cringe. Does it make us any less writers? No, it just means we have limited resources and we do what we can."

If year after year after year, you've been sending off screenplays, then you have already spend hundreds of dollars on paper, on the electricity required to run the computer, on the internet used to access this message board, on ink, on postage, on brads, etc.

You have to be able and willing to invest money if you intend to be a writer.

I'm not telling you to definitely use a script consultant (and they are not proofreaders as anyone can merely proofread your work). However, I'll say that everyone who I've come across or read about it as a screenwriter either had formal training (professors in classes or used paid consultants) or, if you're REALLY lucky , had a mentor in the industry may teach you or analyze your work for free. Maybe some people in a writer's group well help you (this isn't always the best, but assuming the others are experienced writers, it may do it).

Regardless of how it's done, it has to be done. I have gotten quality analysis on a script for free, and I've used paid services (including Script Pimp). Now, if you find yourself getting a bunch of rejections (but people like your concept enough to want to read your script) chances are you do have flaws in your script that need addressing. So somehow you will need feedback from a qualified person. Hey, if your uncle or best friend from high school is in the industry, they might do it. If not, you really should consider a consultant as people are unlikely to want to do much work for people they don't know.

[Boo_Radley]

I don't think it's imperative for someone to have had some form of formal training to succeed as a screenwriter anymore than I think Beethoven spent thirty years learning piano. Sure, the vast majority of working screenwriters may have had some kind of schooling, classes, training, maybe even a mentor...but then, I'm sure there are also a good amount of people who earn a living as screenwriters who've never taken the first lesson and learned strictly from books.

Please know, this is NOT me bragging in any way, shape or form:

I've been writing screenplays for a few years now. Never any formal instruction - I live in Bum F**K Indiana, people around here wouldn't know a screenplay if it jumped up and bit them. All I've had is books -- Screenwriter's Bible, Syd Field's Screenplay, and a few others.

The very first script I ever sent out to anyone was a script I was writing for a filmmaking friend of mine when we realized we had a lot in common and decided to try a collaboration -- I'd write it, he'd direct it. I sent him the first forty five or so pages -- roughly the first act and part of the second. He in turn showed these first draft pages of an uncompleted screenplay to some poeple he knew. Based on those first draft pages alone, all the independent film actors (B-actors, to the non-PC) responded with things like "I HAVE to read the rest of this!"

Once I was finished with the script I sent it to my friend and he showed it to the actors again. Both the actresses I wrote parts for -- actresses well known and loved in the world of low-budget horror -- enthusiastically declared their intention of appearing in this movie. On the strength of that, I submitted it to the Shriekfest Screenplay competition. And, it looks like we have a really good chance of some of my friends filmmaking cohorts putting up the dough for us to film it, IF I don't sell it to someone else first. All this based on the first screenplay sent out from an amateur in Nowhere, Indiana with no formal training whatsoever.

And incidentally, it cost me ZERO to write this screenplay. I typed it on a version of Final Draft I downloaded from Limewire, and my girlfriend, who's the production manager at a local newspaper, ran the copies of it for me. The only money I spent was twenty bucks to register it with the WGAw, and the two bucks it cost to ship it to the Shriekfest screenplay competition.

Now, tell me again how impossible it is to be even remotely successful without training and money?

[icerose]

Look Justino, you don't know me. I just started writing scripts in May. I have an agent on one and could have an agent on another if I wanted. I have been writing forever, but scripts are new. I started writing novels when I was 12 and became serious when I was 17. I now have 4 finished novels and 2 finished scripts both of which are getting read by producers. I would be more than happy to invest money if I could, but I can't. And I have done very well at avoiding costs thus far. When I have more money, I will invest more in my writing but it is hard enough to come up with excuses for a 30 dollar ink cartrige and a ream of paper so I can print out a novel and pay for the postage to send out to publisher. I never said I wasn't careful with my work, nor did I say I am a slacker on my writing.

I work very hard and care very much about my writing. The other stuff is already being paid for so I might as well use it. I haven't spent hundreds of dollars on anything, my husband would strangle me lol.

All I'm saying is we all have priorities and needs and food tends to be higher on the list then paying someone to say if they like my script or not. There are writers who have made it without the higher opinions. I personally don't know anyone in the industry but that doesn't mean things can't happen without that direct relationship.

Anyway, I will say goodnight as it seems my headcold has put me in a not so understanding mood.

Sara



If year after year after year, you've been sending off screenplays, then you have already spend hundreds of dollars on paper, on the electricity required to run the computer, on the internet used to access this message board, on ink, on postage, on brads, etc.

You have to be able and willing to invest money if you intend to be a writer.

I'm not telling you to definitely use a script consultant (and they are not proofreaders as anyone can merely proofread your work). However, I'll say that everyone who I've come across or read about it as a screenwriter either had formal training (professors in classes or used paid consultants) or, if you're REALLY lucky , had a mentor in the industry may teach you or analyze your work for free. Maybe some people in a writer's group well help you (this isn't always the best, but assuming the others are experienced writers, it may do it).

Regardless of how it's done, it has to be done. I have gotten quality analysis on a script for free, and I've used paid services (including Script Pimp). Now, if you find yourself getting a bunch of rejections (but people like your concept enough to want to read your script) chances are you do have flaws in your script that need addressing. So somehow you will need feedback from a qualified person. Hey, if your uncle or best friend from high school is in the industry, they might do it. If not, you really should consider a consultant as people are unlikely to want to do much work for people they don't know.

[JustinoXXV]

First of all, even purchasing books costs money. And as I said, paper, internet service, electricity, ink, and other computer related matters must be paid for as well. The computer itself cost money. Postage costs money.

You must have funds if you're going to write.

Boo, everything you're telling me about your script may sound good. It may even be good. But until the project is filmed, don't count your chickens before they're hatched. And even if it is filmed, that doesn't necessarily count for much, as most indie films don't find distribution. And even if it finds distribution, it doesn't necessarily mean it will make money.

Sara, you say you have an agent, but having been out in LA there are plenty of writers who have "reps" for years and who never get sales.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone (aimed at you Joe, since you have said I'm overly pessimistic). But I think it would be doing people a disservice to let people think becoming a professional screenwriter on the level of people like Simon Kinburg (who has a MFA) is as simple as reading a couple of books on screenwriting while you live in the middle of nowhere.

And I'm not telling people where to live, but too be realistic, it's going to take a lot of work to get anywhere with your writing. Joe, who recently had a sale (or what it an option) has been writing for many years, has used script consultants to improve his writing, etc. I seriously doubt you Boo, or Sara can name one working screenwriting who didn't either have formal instruction or a mentor. And even if you can find that one, rare exception, it doesn't mean it's the best path to pursue for most people. In general, anyone who wants to make a living as a writer should have formal instruction, or get a mentor. The same is true of most other professions.

Anyone who acts has taken acting lessons, studied drama (even if only a couple of classes), and/or had a mentor. People who sing or have other musical talents typically study music, perform in church choirs (which in and of itself is a sort of apprenticeship). People who play sports often learn how to do so at least initially under the guidance of a coach (or had a parent or someone else who could teach them). People who want to be directors go to film school.

So why then are two of you so upset with my saying that working screenwriters, like other working artists/entertainers or even sports figures, have had training? And often they pay for this training (singing and other music lessions, acting lessons, drama,etc.)

[TheRuleofThirds]

Sara, you say you have an agent, but having been out in LA (1) there are plenty of writers who have "reps" for years and who never get sales...I'm not trying to discourage anyone (2) (aimed at you Joe, since you have said I'm overly pessimistic). But I think it would be doing people a disservice (3) to let people think becoming a professional screenwriter on the level of people like Simon Kinburg (who has a MFA) is as simple as reading a couple of books on screenwriting while you live in the middle of nowhere...And I'm not telling people where to live, but too be realistic (4), it's going to take a lot of work to get anywhere with your writing.

Justino, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and hope I don't find myself wishing ill of anyone, but extending you this courtesy is becoming a real challenge. I'm really at a loss to see what kind of positive contribution you're making to this community with your opinions. All I see is that by living in LA, you've developed a holier-than-thou attitude. You feel it's doing everybody a "service" to keep reminding them that they're never going to be as good as you because of that. You don't come right out and toot your own horn like your work (which I have yet to read) is all that great, but you do act like you've got a lot of credentials that we should be impressed with. So far, you've failed to win me over. You think by living in LA and being exposed more to the "real" world of writing, you deserve my trust and respect. Sorry, pal. No dice.

Now, to a broader audience. You can write in the middle of nowhere. I think as long as you know right from wrong with what you're doing, then you're okay. Don't let Justino here fool ya...I think the smog's getting to him. :crazy:

:)

[JustinoXXV]

Dude, I don't need, want, or desire your trust and respect.

I think the issue here is that you and some of the people here want this forum to be a forum of friends. You know, the kind of "friends" who are overly concerned about everyone's feelings, the ones who are too afraid to speak the truth, etc.

However, this is supposed to be a forum of colleagues. Colleagues in any industry do not see eye to eye on everything. And if a colleague thinks another colleague is wrong about something, then said colleague is free to point it out. And a colleague wouldn't feel like he he has to black down if he is telling the truth.

Alright then, to all of you who claim that a nobody and pick up one book and be sold from the middle of nowhere without every having any assestment from any person in the industry, please tell me what screenwriters got into the industry that way. Since you know it's so possible, and so doable, then you should be able to tell me who did it.

I doubt you can. Likewise, you haven't done it yourselves.

It is a COLD, HARD FACT that the overwhelming majority of people who broke into the industry had formal training and/or mentorship.

If you've any evidence to the contrary, please present it.

[Joe Calabrese]

Hey everyone.

I have to agree with Justino on this one.

(see... I am fair, impartial and mostly unbiased).

His tone and words choices may not always be perfect, but he is right that no one just becomes a screenwriter without spending some cash or some kind of time, dedication and learning. It's a commitment up there with marriage and childrearing.

For every ONE writer who sells, options, or gets an agent or noticed on his/her FIRST script, the OTHER 99.999% of us write for years, spend hundreds of dollars on paper, ink, postage and more money on books, lectures, mentors, consultants and such. The very few wunderkind success stories are not a barometer of the norm. But that doesn't mean it will never happen to you. Just accept the odds and let the dice fall where they may.

Now. The thing that I'm sure Justino wanted to mention, but forgot to is that if you can't afford a consultant, lecture or class, look for alternatives.

Join a writers group.
Take out books from the library.

With anything worthwhile there is sacrifice, the question is how much.

[zagoraz]

Sometimes Justino just can't see the forest for the trees. He gets an argument in his head and decides to hammer it in our heads regardless if it's really relevant or not. The point he's trying to make here isn't really worth making because it's such a broad argument (as many of his are.) There are probably 1,000 examples I could come up with to counterpoint his insistence that you 'can't make it' without having someone mentor you or have your script read by a professional. But who has the time to argue something so trivial? I know from other threads that he has had both good and bad experiences with script consultants, and whatever that experience has been for him, good or bad, it's been HIS experience alone. Suggest it to us, fine, push it on us, er, ok, but to INSIST that we ALL go out and get SCRIPT CONSULTANTS RIGHT NOW just because he did is just plain too much. It's stupid. Everyone's experience is different, Justino's opinion doesn't mean squat in the broad scheme of things, but he's free to say what he wants on here. You just have to learn to skip over his posts if you don't want uninformed advice.

[Joe Calabrese]

Zag, calm down.
I don't see Justino as being overly insistant.

[zagoraz]

My apologies Joe. Haven't had my coffee yet.

[icerose]

What got under my skin is the assumption that my work is bad because of lack of money, or is not worth merit because of lack of funds and training and so forth. I'm not saying I'm a great writer or even a good writer. But I am struggling very very hard. I would love to have those things, mentor, classes, books and so forth if I could, but I can't. And it isn't about making choices for or against or thinking I'm good enough I don't need them. Point is I just can't do that, but that doesn't mean I can't try. I am not counting any chickens, I do hope, but I do not count on anything panning out. If I did I would already buy the car that I need and spend money I don't have. I don't.

But it doesn't mean I can't try my hardest and hope for something. Is all I'm saying. Try not to go out of your way to kill dreams okay?

Sara

[zagoraz]

"Alright then, to all of you who claim that a nobody and pick up one book and be sold from the middle of nowhere without every having any assestment from any person in the industry, please tell me what screenwriters got into the industry that way. Since you know it's so possible, and so doable, then you should be able to tell me who did it.

I doubt you can. Likewise, you haven't done it yourselves."


Ok here's one - Mike Rich. Rich wrote the screenplay for Finding Forrester while working as the News Director and morning news DJ for KINK-FM 102 radio in Portland, Oregon. Entered it in Nichols and won.

[TheRuleofThirds]

I think the issue here is that you and some of the people here want this forum to be a forum of friends. You know, the kind of "friends" who are overly concerned about everyone's feelings, the ones who are too afraid to speak the truth, etc.

However, this is supposed to be a forum of colleagues. Colleagues in any industry do not see eye to eye on everything. And if a colleague thinks another colleague is wrong about something, then said colleague is free to point it out. And a colleague wouldn't feel like he he has to black down if he is telling the truth.

Honesty's a good thing, you're right. But so is diplomacy. I don't care if everyone here is so chummy that they're "yes"-men/women. What I think is good is if people can feel comfortable posting their material and feel like they're getting that much closer to achieving their dream of being a successful screenwriter. You are constantly being the shapeshifter, saying you want that for them too, but you ALWAYS find a nice, hearty way of knocking them down a step or two. What the hell's the matter with you? That's not 'realistic'; that's mean. I don't care how LA works, because other films that are just as good are made elsewhere in the world. LA may have the highest concentration of resources in one area, but it's also got the highest concentration of @$$holes, IMO. That's why I'm content and happy to not go down in history as one of the greats, because I'd rather boycott that kind of lifestyle and its way of doing business. If you love the dog-eat-dog world you're living in, then by all means enjoy it while you can! I prefer to forego the hassle of all that and just try to make it on my own, piecing together sugar packets from everyone who knows anything on the outside.

Alright then, to all of you who claim that a nobody and pick up one book and be sold from the middle of nowhere without every having any assestment from any person in the industry, please tell me what screenwriters got into the industry that way. Since you know it's so possible, and so doable, then you should be able to tell me who did it.

I doubt you can. Likewise, you haven't done it yourselves.

It is a COLD, HARD FACT that the overwhelming majority of people who broke into the industry had formal training and/or mentorship.

If you've any evidence to the contrary, please present it.

By "industry", of course, you mean "Hollywood." Bull. There's a whole range of producers and writers out in a whole range of places that can put up a whole range of funds. I really hate this mentality that you're never going to be really good unless you sell a movie to Hollywood. I wish people would open their minds and realize that making good movies is what it's all about. If you can find a director who conveys or enhances your vision of the story, and it's good, then you should be content, no matter where it's made, but just as long as you've been given a good deal and you're not in the poorhouse.

Lastly, let me emphasize that I think education is very important and I can tell that it takes a lot of work. (It definitely takes the dedication to go through all the revisions.) I just think people are full of it when they say that Hollywood monopolizes any kind of knowledge of what good screenwriting is and that you have to pay them to get it most of the time. Good screenwriting is everywhere. So is good directing, lighting, editing, acting. Never tell me otherwise.

[StephieM]

Sara,

I can totally see where you're coming from. It's hard to stretch a dollar these days, not all of us can afford a script consultant. I have three kids, and though my screenwriting is important, they come first. Until I have a firm grasp on my screenwriting and am confident enough that my scripts are worth spending the money on, the only thing I'm going to be paying for is paper and ink. The books I buy are bought off ebay for a reasonable price. The screenwriting software I got is a demo of Final Draft 7.0 I found on the internet. And because I became a mother so young, I've never had a chance for schooling. Everything I've learned thus far have been on books, the internet, and writing forums. I don't think it matters how you learn or wether or not one has had schooling or a mentor, I have to totally disagree with Justino there. What matters is if you have the determination and the talent to get you there. But through all of Justino's ramblings comes some basic truth. Eventually we have to put our selves out there, we're going to have to spend more than what we wish we have to. But that's life. You can't get anywhere for free, and you have to spend money to make money. A lot of it too, has to do with connections. It helps to live in a place like L.A. because that's where the people are, that's where the "big business" is. I'm not going to get any connections living in the middle of Ohio that's for sure. In a year or so, I plan to move to L.A., sure it might cost more money to live out there than here under the protective canopy of low cost living, but that's a chance I have to take if I want to further my goal. If it's something you really really really want, you do whatever it takes to get there, sometimes even making financial sacrifices. But there is certainly no rush. Take your time, and learn the business the best way you can until you feel confident enough to start spending more money. There is no gaurantee that the money you spend will pay off. I did craft shows for years, spending tons and tons of money to make the things I was selling. The money I made never compensated for the money I spent. Sometimes what you're offering is exactly what others are looking for, other times people will pass you right by without even noticing. It's a tough world, but you can't break through until you put yourself out there. :Sun:



Steph

[StephieM]

Justino-

I agree with you only partially. Sure you have to spend money if you want to make it in this business. But I doubt anyone who reads my script or anyone's script is going to care what kind of education I've had. The only thing they are going to care about is wether or not they like my script. Sure, everyone can benefit from a few courses, but does it determine their success? No. Success comes from determination. I am a firm believer that anyone can do whatever they set their mind to do. I am also a firm believer that everyone is born with a talent, be it basketball, painting, writing, whatever. If you can recognize that talent in yourself and you work hard at it, you can accomplish what it takes to make yourself better all on your own.

True story-My greatgrandmother loved the sound of the piano. When she was six, her sister was given piano lessons. She begged her mom to allow her to take lessons, but her mom thought she was too young. On the days her sister would have piano lessons she would sit outside the window and listen to the music. When they were done for the day, my greatgrandmother would sit down in front of the piano and play her sister's music perfectly, note for note, without flaw.
Her mother recognized her incredible talent and agreed to let her take lessons. My point is, when you have a talent you don't have to learn it, you further it.

When my greatgrandmother passed away my stepmother inherited her piano. She had to sell it because at night the piano would start playing by itself. :Sun:

Steph

[Joe Calabrese]

As for Justino and others feelings towards his comments. Let's drop it. He has made his opinions clear and you have all answered. No need to beat a dead horse. Besides it's gone off topic.

Sara,
I too can't afford alot, that is why I suggest a writer's group in your area to act in the role of consultant. Also, check out the WGA mentoring program which is free anbd gives you the possibility to get advice from WGA writers. My point is you don't need to spend a lot of money to achieve your dreams, you can find cheap and sometimes free alternatives. As for books, the library has or can get from libraries in the system a lot.

Just because you cannot afford to educate yourself or seek advice from payed pros, doesn't mean you should not do anything.

[dpaterso]

God only knows what this discussion is about, my eyeballs are bleeding. Let's aim for logline size replies, 25-30 words. Write your best. That's all you can do.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57/scripts.htm)

[icerose]

Sara,
I too can't afford alot, that is why I suggest a writer's group in your area to act in the role of consultant. Also, check out the WGA mentoring program which is free anbd gives you the possibility to get advice from WGA writers. My point is you don't need to spend a lot of money to achieve your dreams, you can find cheap and sometimes free alternatives. As for books, the library has or can get from libraries in the system a lot.

Just because you cannot afford to educate yourself or seek advice from payed pros, doesn't mean you should not do anything.

Hi Joe,
This is what I am doing. I could not afford a script writing book, nor are there any writing classes in the area even if I could afford them. So I searched the internet and started reading scripts. I got a demo of final draft to get the layout correct and worked with a co-writer with some previous experience to write the first script. I have an agent working to get my script out there and I have friends with other contacts who they are kind enough to try and get my work out there as well. I wrote a second script for this group and am waiting. While I wait I am co-writing another script with the same person I worked with on the first script. I am also working on my novels, I have massive amounts of editing to do on my two newly finished ones. Once I feel they are ready, I am sending one to Tor and the other to Avon and seeing where it leads. In the mean time I have joined this writers forum so that any questions, like I had one on titles and subtitles and such and how to write them and I believe it was you who so kindly answered it. I have friends from all levels of experience who help me comb over my manuscripts and scripts to mold them into the best form I can get them. It may not be enough but it is the most I can do. I won't give up even after I have made it, there are always higher steps to climb to, but for now I am moving as much and as fast as I can and hoping for the best :)

Sara

[Joe Calabrese]

Got an agent, connections, three script under your belt-- you are ahead of most writers out there. Kudos. You sound like your doing it pretty good just the way it is. Good luck.

[icerose]

Got an agent, connections, three script under your belt-- you are ahead of most writers out there. Kudos. You sound like your doing it pretty good just the way it is. Good luck.

Thanks Joe,
I am so nervous though. This waiting is killing me, knowing I could get an offer or rejection any day now! I have butterflies in my stomach.
Sara