Controlling your bias

wow.
Don't envy you on that one.
But maybe viewing Atheism as another religion - as in it has a set of beliefs maybe?
Think Southpark did a fairly good job on that once, starting with Cartman waiting for the new Wii. (Ah, Cartman, one of the greatest comic figures ever...)

Atheism is a religion--a set of beliefs, if you will. How does an atheist know for sure there is no God, any more than a religious person knows there is a God? Anyhow, as for bias, I just let mine fly. I don't try and control them. They are part of what gives me my voice.

So long as he protagonist doesn't prevail *because* she is athiest, the preaching-potential is fairly low IMHO.

Rhys Cordelle said:

I am an atheist but I am very interested in religious thinking and practices. My question here, for those of you who write fiction with religion and/or atheism as a theme, is how do you control your personal bias? How can I avoid "preaching" about atheism?

Click to expand...

By not 'preaching'!

Atheism (as I perceive the concept) is the notion that there are no gods; that the whole religious concept is not for me, and what I (maybe falsely) imagine to be the same sentiment as my peers. Why argue about it?

Your idea of;

Rhys Cordelle said:

An "atheist" noble woman manages to rise to power in a city that is highly controlled by the church, because her predecessor was a strong believer.

Click to expand...

sounds fake to me. Why 'Athist' in brackets? Why does she manage to rise to power 'because' her predecessor was a strong believer? Why not from her own merits? How could she even rise into power if considered an atheist in a city where the church has a stronghold?

Brutal Mustang said:

Atheism is a religion

Click to expand...

No, that would be one of the more cherished misconceptions in the religious realm. Atheism is really the absence of religion.

Brutal Mustang said:

How does an atheist know for sure there is no God, any more than a religious person knows there is a God?

Click to expand...

A true non-believer -or atheist as some prefer to call us - is actually convinced that the 'god'-concept has been invented by man.

Rhys Cordelle said:

Basically wanting to explore non belief, monotheistic and pantheistic religions in a non earth setting so that I don't feel restricted by not wanting to offend people of particular religions, or feeling like there's something that just can't be said.

I am an atheist but I am very interested in religious thinking and practices. My question here, for those of you who write fiction with religion and/or atheism as a theme, is how do you control your personal bias? How can I avoid "preaching" about atheism?

Click to expand...

I have several suggestions. Hopefully one may meet your needs.

Answer 1: Don't flinch from your values.

By definition, religious literature endorses its own values. The 'comfort' factor built into religious myth frequently requires that hard questions have answers agreeable to people of that faith. Atheists can find that position intrinsically preachy. (I've helped Christian friends edit and polish their writing for example, but have to set aside my views about the message to do so.)

Conversely, if as an atheist, you believe that hard questions don't always have agreeable answers, and if that view finds its way into your writing then your writing may intrinsically challenge religious thought. Readers who don't welcome that challenge may also find it preachy. There's nothing to be done about that. Recognise that you'll probably alienate some readers.

Likewise, your idea of an agreeable answer may simply be different because of your values. Again, there's nothing to be done about that. Christian literature doesn't necessarily appeal to Buddhists; stories written by atheists won't necessarily appeal to theists.

Answer 2: Beware the 'single story'.

No culture is homogeneous. There is a huge range of diversity in every population. But humans have a tendency to only recognise diversity in their own tribe, and to simplify every other tribe to a single stereotype. It's bad writing and sloppy thinking, and no writer should do it. Whatever faith you write about, tell more than one story about it. Let the characters, not the dogma, be the story -- that way you'll write fiction and not simply propaganda.

Answer 3: Let the story follow the conflict; let the conflict follow the characters.

Every character can't be broad-minded, tolerant, adaptible and insightful or there would be no conflict. It's the bigotry, intolerance, rigidity and stupidity of humanity that creates the stories we want to read. Ultimately, conflict takes root in the flaws of our characters. So you need to let them be flawed.

Let the flaws be surprising, interesting, understandable -- if not always sympathetic. Give your characters a mixture of sympathetic and unsympathetic and they'll be balanced, credible and interesting. Add diversity as well, and readers will see the balance and the humanity in your writing. It still may not appeal to everyone, but you won't give readers cause to see your writing as dismissive, shallow or bigoted.

Hope that helps.

Answer 4: Don't fear the unfamiliar

The stories that change us aren't the ones we've heard time and again; they're the new stories, with new and sometimes controversial perspectives. Writing-as-entertainment thrives on the familiar, the safely novel; but writing-as-art thrives on challenging and provoking us.

Historically, religious literature has had thousands of years to establish and mature its mythology, including its mythology about non-belief. For much of that period there were few or no stories in which religious disbelief was represented as having any sort of social value. Even now, when posters here ask about atheistic fiction it's rather hard to nail down any that everyone has read. On the other hand, ask for religious fiction and everyone -- even atheists -- can cite hundreds of famous tales.

Ask an average person in the street what sort of person an atheist is and you may hear that they're hedonistic, communistic, arrogant, amoral and selfish. Certainly, some atheists might be some or all of those things. But what about the atheists who sacrifice for their religious friends? What about the ones who co-exist peacefully with folk of many different faiths? Who contribute to charities? Who suffer for reasons of conscience? Who tells their stories?

Here's a hint: it probably won't be theistic authors of religious fiction, any time soon.

Added: Here's a very inspirational address from African author Chimimanda Adichie on the danger of the single story. Thanks to Williebee for originally furnishing this link.

Answer 5: Sometimes, religion may be the right answer.

Ursula Le Guin is an atheist writer who enjoys writing about gods. I've also written a story where to me, the right answer for one character (a child born of two ethnicities, suffering bigotry from both) was to get pious and join a Christian monastery. We may be atheistic in our own outlook, but there's nothing to stop us from writing religion sympathetically and positively if it's right for the character in that situation.

(Curiously, that tale was the one story that really offended my Christian friends -- because my character also subscribed to a famous mediaeval heresy; but that too was right for the character, or so I felt.)

I've been trying to avoid it, myself.

When I first wrote my opening to my WIP, I had it start with a murder in a temple, but found a number of things creeping in. So I changed it to a bath house.

I now more or less intend to treat religion as primarily a ritual thing in the story. Various people hold various religious views, but there's never any talk about it beyond how these rituals relate to the story. If there's anything atheistic about my story, it is that the characters have no way of knowing whether or not there are any gods, and what those gods may want, just as in real life. So they more or less go through the motions and keep their own opinions, just as in real life.

Rhys Cordelle said:

I am an atheist but I am very interested in religious thinking and practices. My question here, for those of you who write fiction with religion and/or atheism as a theme, is how do you control your personal bias? How can I avoid "preaching" about atheism?

Click to expand...

There's a couple of ways you avoid any preaching of theme by being honest with your exploration of it.

While your "good guys" can agree with you, don't paint your non-good guys with stereotypical viewpoints. Just because you have a bias against people who believe, I'm sure you know good people who hold such beliefs. Use them as models for those characters as you explore how your theme impacts their society and the story. Just don't paint everyone in your book with one brush. The details make all the difference.

I'm not an atheist, I'm non-Christian, but since I write a lot of historically set stories, the vast majority of my characters are. Just because I can't agree with their belief systems doesn't mean that I can't put my religious passion into their belief system and strengthen their conviction on paper. Religious exploration--what is right, what is moral, why people believe what they believe--is a reoccuring theme or sub-theme in my work as well, so I know the challenge you're talking about.

I treat themes like this like a many-faceted jewel. Each character is a different facet, a slightly different viewpoint/stance on the social/moral scale I'm discussing in the novel. Some I think are inherently better than others, but they're all valid, real and meaningful to those characters. Just remembering that the characters are the reader's main vehicle into the story helps keep me focus and honest with the theme.

Hope that helps.

Make their atheism real for that world: why is she an atheist? Does it stem from some wider world view?

Takign me as an example. I am an atheist because I am a rationalist*. That rationalism pervades most of my life to the extent that you could probably predict my atheism from my general approach to life, e.g. an insistence on evidence before I believe something, and acceptance that "should" is not the same as "is".

*I don't see rationalism as a faith, since everybody has to embrace a rational, evidence-based approach to the world in order to survive in it. Religious people set aside an area of their world view in which rationalism does not apply.

One really interesting thing you can do with Atheists in fantasy settings is make them aggressive and meaningful. What I mean by that is... in the real world, atheists really just exist as a reaction to belief, and mock it.

One (fun) model is where Gods actually require belief to survive (or grow stronger). Atheists in that model can actually commit guerrilla warfare (and other Gods can undermine each other) by converting people to their cause. You could even have a subplot where the Atheists are the catspaw of some God who is trying to rise to prominence by erasing the rest.

That may be a little too fantasy for you, though, if you're going for a purely realistic exploration of theistic themes.

I liked Ruv Draba's answers, probably sold by the wolf pic too, but I appreciated all the input in this thread because many facets were explored which gave me lots to think about. Thanks y'all!

My initial problems with religion / non religion was similar to Rhys' but I was writing historically - character driven, so religion; non, even anti figured. Then other factors like love, hate and murder.

So from another perspective entirely - would you be uncomfortable to be seen to have an "opinion" on murder? Well probably not, but rather it's what a character does and it's part of the story. (Not saying murder's part of your story, Rhys, just using murder as an altered perspective).

In that sense my characters have varied religious opinions - those that I've noticed people projecting, I guess: the zealot; the pro religious; anti religious; everyday religious and the apathetic.

My opinions I keep separate because the story isn't about me. My characters' beliefs like those of other people contain many more nuances
of reasons and personal history than I couldn't fully appreciate, I think.

Though what I have enjoyed is characters with two entirely opposite opinions on the same subject, each as passionate and convincing. That's conflict, I guess. Maybe I like it because I get the chance to argue I'm right twice over

I dunno, maybe you are preaching, but don't want to admit it to yourself? Sorry, just a suggestion - writing can get deep so that I find myself asking myself all sorts of awkward questions. Questions I'd rather avoid, but ones that must be answered, and when they are answered my stories feel more real, more credible.

But placing myself aside it becomes easier when my pov is from the character in question. IE: in the altered world of my story, me as character X, what do I feel given myself, my history and what is around me?

Doing this takes the pressure off me the writer. Immersed in a character I can be a zealot or apathetic or even a killer. The more I believe I am the character and understand their reasons, the more convincing the character can become. The beauty is that afterwards I can switch off the word processor and relax with my beloved family.

J. Michael Straczynski and Joss Whedon are both atheists who write beautifully about religious characters. One of the primary themes of Babylon 5 was how the religious beliefs of various races affected them, and everything else in the universe. He did it without ever being condescending or dismissive.

My WIP has a born-again Christian the other characters don't like. That dislike is exacerbated when, because of his religion, he messes up everything and creates a huge setback. But toward the end of the story he, and only he, can save the day, because he's a BAC. I'm having to work extra hard on the character, because I don't like him and I'm afraid I've made him a bit too stereotypical in the first draft. For the second draft I need get inside his head more and flesh him out.

Interesting stuff.

My suggestion would be to simply write the first draft and put in everything and anything you want to say about religion, and don't worry about how it sounds. Then put it aside for a month and read it straight through. You should be able to identify by tone anything that sounds preachy and then rework it to fit more into the flow of the story or the characters' voices and thoughts.

Most importantly, remember that it's your voice and your idea. If it must be said, don't censor it.

To the poster that claims that atheism is a religion, I recommend a basic amount of homework. Atheism could be considered a religion in only the loosest and laziest of terms. It has no church, no myths, no protocols, no symbols, no organization, no rituals, no absolute statements.

Rhys Cordelle said:

I am an atheist but I am very interested in religious thinking and practices. My question here, for those of you who write fiction with religion and/or atheism as a theme, is how do you control your personal bias? How can I avoid "preaching" about atheism?

Click to expand...

I had a very similar problem.

I solved it by having my character suffer from the 'what would happen if you took that tenet, the most basic one of my religion', and warped it.

What I believe may or may not be apparent in my writing. I'd hope not, but some is bound to leak out

Don't send a message. Tell a story. If parts of that story support what you believe, fine. But parts won't ( because of the conflict) and you have to write those just as convincingly.

Your character has attributes, use them. Don't be afraid to show the failts and flaws of every view, along with the pluses. While your worldview will leak in, try and be objective as possible and think only about what your characters would do.

What you believe is immaterial ( unless you're writing a sermon ) - it's the story that matters

However you write it - People will take their own message from it - this is from one who for too long believed LOTR was a book about her religion, not Christianity, because I saw different symbols ( or interpreted them differently) that Tolkien

fullbookjacket said:

To the poster that claims that atheism is a religion, I recommend a basic amount of homework. Atheism could be considered a religion in only the loosest and laziest of terms. It has no church, no myths, no protocols, no symbols, no organization, no rituals, no absolute statements.

Click to expand...

One of the definitions of religion in my old Webster dictionary is this: something which has a powerful hold on a person's way of thinking, interests, etc.

Under this definition, yes, atheism is a religion. Atheism affects a person's beliefs and ways of thinking, just as a Buddism, or Christianity, etc. may affect another person's thinking and beliefs.

Simple logic.

Atheism affects a person's beliefs and ways of thinking, just as a Buddism, or Christianity, etc. may affect another person's thinking and beliefs.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing you don't believe in Zeus or Baal. How deeply that that affect your thinking and beliefs?

Brutal Mustang said:

One of the definitions of religion in my old Webster dictionary is this: something which has a powerful hold on a person's way of thinking, interests, etc.

Under this definition, yes, atheism is a religion. Atheism affects a person's beliefs and ways of thinking, just as a Buddism, or Christianity, etc. may affect another person's thinking and beliefs.

Simple logic.

Click to expand...

Not if your atheism is a product of your rationalism.

Think of it this way: your disbelief in Thor is a product of your Christianity.

So, yes, call Rationalism a religion. I can see advantages to that.

Brutal Mustang said:

One of the definitions of religion in my old Webster dictionary is this: something which has a powerful hold on a person's way of thinking, interests, etc.

Under this definition, yes, atheism is a religion. Atheism affects a person's beliefs and ways of thinking, just as a Buddism, or Christianity, etc. may affect another person's thinking and beliefs.

Simple logic.

Click to expand...

I'm aware of that definition, which is the loosest and laziest of them all. My point exactly.

It's like saying my love for Gator football, which has a powerful hold on my way of thinking and interests, is therefore my religion. It's more of a rhetorical device than anything based in the common definition of "religion."