Publishing Rights and Copyright

wanda45451964 said:

I know this mights eem like a stupid question, but I thought the whole purpose of copyright was to protect you and your rights so that no one could take them from you.

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This is a worthy question to be answered, but could it be moved to a more appropriate location, rather than the Tate thread?

wanda45451964 said:

I know this mights eem like a stupid question, but I thought the whole purpose of copyright was to protect you and your rights so that no one could take them from you.

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No one "takes" the rights of someone who signs with a vanity press. The person signs them away. They give the press permission.

There can only be one first time for anything, Wanda, and that includes publication. If your book is published by Tate or PA, or by Random House or anyone else, then the first rights to your mss are gone for good. You don't get a second chance to use first rights. So while they can then return all rights to you, that can't include FIRST rights. Which is what most good publishers want.

I hope that's a help.

Wanda, I know you probably don't like me, but nobody else has explained this to you, so I will.

Copyright is not the same thing as publishing rights.

You can sell "first rights" to your book and you still own the copyright. Your publisher will register the copyright in your name.

If you are interested in knowing the difference between copyright and publishing rights in more detail, I did a couple of blog posts on the subject. Search on Writer Beware's blog under "copyright" and "publishing rights."

-Ann C. Crispin

Ah, Ann. An important point which I completely overlooked. It's so easy to assume that people know these things just because I do.

And I'm very sure, Ann, that no one dislikes you or fails to appreciate your tireless efforts in helping authors and bringing down scammers. (That is, other than the scammers themselves!)

wanda45451964 said:

well Pa turned down my fake manuscript that is I sent them onpurpose. Yes, i know this is Tate. I am glad that I now know the difference. what is non 1st rights. they have that in my pa contract that I can keep.

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Ok these are the rights pretty much everyone starts out with:

-first publication
-second publication
-copyright
-audio
-electronic
-film

Those are yours the minute you start writing. When your book is printed, your first publication rights are gone. For good. Second publication are very hard to sell because it's a bigger gamble for publishers. Either there was no demand for you book, or your book has tapped out its potential with the first publication. Vanity publishers aren't completely lying when they say if you're not satisfied with them, you can take it elsewhere. They just don't tell you that it's a much harder sell.

Copyright is yours unless you specifically sign it away to a publisher. This is always spelt out in the contract. Same follows for audio, electronic and film rights.

M.R.J. Le Blanc said:

. . . Second publication are very hard to sell because it's a bigger gamble for publishers.. . . .

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I disagree. Books are republished all the time. If the publisher sees it as a profitable book (previous publication notwithstanding), they'll be interested, assuming it fits their catalog. My favorite example is Kiyo Sato's Dandelion Through the Crack, published in a small first hardback edition (about 2,100 copies) by a very small press with essentially no distribution. Soho Press, a sizeable independent, picked it up for a new hardback edition, retitling it Kiyo's Story (the author did not like that change, but had no say in the matter), and is planning a trade paperback for late next year. (Originally, Soho was to do a trade paperback, but detoured through a new hardback edition.)

Stephanie Chandler published a modest edition of one of her books via Lulu.com, and before long a commercial publisher picked it up and published a new (and retitled) edition.

Maybe it is a bigger gamble, and maybe not. Depends, I guess.

By the way, this afternoon I went to a large local discount store, one of those that specializes in remaindered merchandise (everything from cereal to holiday decorations). It had aisles of books -- many, many books -- including a very large number of remaindered hardbacks, by unknowns as well as well-known writers. One after another was a first edition, and the ones I looked at mostly if not all first (and only) printings. Most books, even from well established commercial publishers, don't sell a whole lot of copies. One printing of 3,000 to 5,000 copies, on average, a couple of months in bookstores, and then remaindered. Those books are not likely to turn up in new editions, as they have had their chance and are now pretty clearly dead. THOSE would be a gamble. Ones that never really had a chance in the first place might actually have a better chance, in my opinion.

FWIW.

--Ken

There are also first and second serial rights, which are the right to publish excerpts of the book, or to publish the book as a series of excerpts over time, in a magazine or periodical. (First -- before publication of the book; second -- after publication of the book.) Most publishers take first serial rights. Many do not take second serial rights.

If one has a short story collection published as a book, and retained second serial rights, one could break it into excerpts, i.e. individual short stories, and submit them individually to magazines or anthologies. Of course, one would have to state in the submission letter that the story was a reprint, first published in book form as a short story collection, but many magazines do accept reprints. If the story sold, it would be a solid publication credit; if it were rejected, the author might at least get some helpful feedback from the editor.

Oh I don't disagree that it happens. But as I understood it, it doesn't happen often enough to say that you have a really good chance of selling on second rights. If a publisher thinks they can sell it, yeah they'll pick it up. The likelihood just seems to go down when first rights are gone.

wanda45451964 said:

so does that means you can take half of your short story collection and put it in another collection of stories under the second serial rights? just asking!!!

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This is all very much off topic for Tate. I'll be moving it shortly.

For basic information on copyright (U.S. law, at least) see www.copyright.gov -- look for the FAQ and Copyright Basics.

--Ken

This might be of interest: http://misssnark.blogspot.com/2006/05/first-serial-rights.html . She appears to be thinking in book-relevant terms.

Also see this from Writer's Digest: http://blog.writersdigest.com/qq/What+Are+First+Serial+Rights+Or+FNASR.aspx

That is oriented to periodical (magazine and newspaper) articles as such, not as book excerpts published in periodicals.

Here is an excerpt from the Writer's Digest piece:

A: When you sell first serial rights to a newspaper, magazine or periodical for a piece of work you’ve written, that media outlet has the right to be the first place to publish the article/story/ poem. After the piece runs, you’re free to resell it to another medium or to package a collection of your work into a book.

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This looks good, too: http://writing-short-stories.suite101.com/article.cfm/understanding_your_manuscript_rights

FWIW.

--Ken

wanda45451964 said:

so does that means you can take half of your short story collection and put it in another collection of stories under the second serial rights? just asking!!!

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I'd suggest you check out some of the links Research Guy posted, and maybe do a google search on "second serial rights". See what you can learn about it. You'll probably be able to answer all your own questions in a short time! And the research is always good practice, since every writer has to do her own research.

You'll probably find, too, that people on boards like AW are a lot more willing to help if you come and say "I researched second serial rights and have learned that it means this, this, and this, but I'm still a bit confused about one other bit. Can anyone help?" rather than asking "What are second serial rights?" without making any attempt to look it up yourself first.

wanda45451964 said:

so does that means you can take half of your short story collection and put it in another collection of stories under the second serial rights? just asking!!!

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That depends on the original contract.

What rights did you sell?

Wanda, it's more complex when you are dealing with a collection of shorter pieces (whether they're poems, short stories, or articles) as each piece has its own copyright and own set of rights; and then the collection as a whole also has its own set of rights.

As has already been said, it all depends on what was originally sold. If you sold (or more correctly, licensed) ALL rights to those stories when they first appeared in magazines, then you don't have the right to have them published in a book unless you can get the magazines to agree to the publication.

If you only sold first serial rights when the stories appeared in the magazines, then you're OK to put them into a collection (although it's usual to acknowledge in that collection the publications where they first appeared).

If you publish one collection and want to publish a second, different collection which includes stories from that first collection, then you can only do so if your contract for the first collection allows you to do so.

What you really MUST NOT DO is go ahead and publish a new collection without being absolutely certain that you have the legal rights to do so, otherwise you risk getting into a lot of trouble with the law.

It's also worth noting here that it's notoriously difficult to get a good publisher to even consider a collection of short stories. They're a very difficult thing to sell, and are usually only considered from writers who are already very successful. If you write short stories then you're probably best off concentrating on improving your craft, aiming for publication only when you're ready, and then trying to place your stories in the smaller literary and genre magazines which take them.

M.R.J. Le Blanc said:

Ok these are the rights pretty much everyone starts out with:

-first publication
-second publication
-copyright
-audio
-electronic
-film

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This is not quite right. What you start out with is copyright (which is guaranteed by law in most countries from the minute you write down the words). Copyright, literally, is "the right to copy." What this means in practical terms is that the author, and only the author, has the right to give other people permission to copy and disseminate his or her work, by whatever means and in whatever media currently exist.

In other words, "copyright" includes the entire bundle of rights that an author can sell, license, give away, or utilize him/herself--including first publication (there really is no such thing as "first rights" in book publishing; it's much more specialized than that), reprints, electronic publication, audio, film, TV, radio, serialization...the list goes on (and continues to expand as technology makes different forms of publication possible).

When you sign a publishing contract, you are typically granting that publisher permission to use certain of those rights for a limited period of time (that limitation, whether it's a fixed-year term--such as three or seven years--or the point at which the book ceases to sell in significant numbers, should be clearly spelled out in your publishing contract). You are not "losing" those rights or "giving them away"--you are merely allowing someone else to exploit them for a while (and hopefully pay you for the privilege). The reason you can do this is that you, the author, retain ownership of your copyright. This is why you should NEVER, EVER sign a contract that requires you to grant copyright, rather than just rights, to a publisher (unless you're doing work for hire, which is a whole different ball of wax), and you should always be sure that your contract includes some provision to allow you to get back the rights you've granted--either by limiting the grant term to a specific period of time, or describing in detail the circumstances under which the publisher must cease publication and relinquish its claim on your rights.

So you own copyright, and you grant rights. Because you are the copyright owner, others can buy those rights from you. Conversely, because you are the copyright owner, others can't use those rights without specific permission from you.

Unfortunately, confusion about the difference between rights and copyright is common, not only among authors but among amateur publishers--which may have contracts that seriously mix up the two--and amateur agents--who may not understand the difference. When you're looking for a publisher or agent, ignorance about copyright is a major red flag.

- Victoria

And Victoria explains it better than anyone else. I bow to your expertise once again

Old Hack said:

There can only be one first time for anything, Wanda, and that includes publication. If your book is published by Tate or PA, or by Random House or anyone else, then the first rights to your mss are gone for good. You don't get a second chance to use first rights. So while they can then return all rights to you, that can't include FIRST rights. Which is what most good publishers want.

I hope that's a help.

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I was told here I can get help could you help me please.
I published my book with Dog Ear, in Nov 2008. In Feb 2009 I found out they were not paying my royalty so I send 2 register letter to stop the print!
They did not stop so I went to an attorney and the attorney sen them an Email that cost me $500.00 to stop printing the publisher said they have stopped and my book no longer is available, however I still got over 20 copy from their distributors. they also said: 8 copy were sold and I will be paid by the end of June, I still did not get Paid.
I have tried to find IP attorney but every one confuses my problem with breech of contract.(long Story) and it is not the problem, I just want them to stop selling my book and I have proves that the publisher is not truthful!
Please help me, I have lost it all, living in my car eating out of trash,to save money for attorney
I even wrote to:
"Straight Expectations" by Jane Friedman discusses the ins and outs of self publishing.

she wrote an article for the publisher:
Writer's Digest features Dog Ear Publishing as a "Get Smart..." resource for self publishing
All she did is reply and feel sorry for me, and gave me another email that never responded!
Please help me any one here please, I am not good in here to see if any one send me anything, but my email is

[email protected]
Sakineh in arabic translaits to knife and I was borne June 09 1969.

thank you every one thank you

I did publish my book with Dog Ear, and I am living in my car eating out of trash to save money to visit them with IP attorney. They might look good but I have enough to show they are lower than human. According to them there was only 8 copy of my book was sold and I should get paid by the end of June 2009, to this day I still have not seen anything from them!
They said they deleted my book and no longer is available as new and POD but I have over 20 copies of my book and all after 3 clear letters to the Dog Ear to stop printing my book.

I am here to get some help, any help please any one?
I know there is help.
the Dog Ear has done willful infringement under
17 U.S.C. section 101
504(c)(2)