Debut Author if Self Pubbed Under Pseudo?

KelliMain · Oct 18, 2009

I'm planning to self-pub an erotic romance with Amazon Kindle under the name Kelli Main. I also write YA under my real name and am actively seeking an agent for traditional publishing.

If I would be published traditionally under my real name, would it still be a debut if I'm self pubbed under a pseudo?

Thanks!

suki · Oct 18, 2009

KelliMain said:
I'm planning to self-pub an erotic romance with Amazon Kindle under the name Kelli Main. I also write YA under my real name and am actively seeking an agent for traditional publishing.

If I would be published traditionally under my real name, would it still be a debut if I'm self pubbed under a pseudo?

Thanks!

Eventual question for your agent/editor, but my guess is that the first book you publish under any name is your debut novel.

~suki

Cyia · Oct 18, 2009

A few agents have already answered this question on their blogs (and Jennifer Laughran answered it on her thread here).

You get ONE debut. Period.

However, it can still be your Debut YA novel, just not your "debut novel".

ORION · Oct 18, 2009

um no.
For example jeannette walls who wrote the best selling memoir glass something...has a novel out now and since it's fiction they are calling it her debut.
I know MANY writers who published under one name and then became another "debut" author with a different name and genre.
It happens.

suki · Oct 18, 2009

ORION said:
um no.
For example jeannette walls who wrote the best selling memoir glass something...has a novel out now and since it's fiction they are calling it her debut.
I know MANY writers who published under one name and then became another "debut" author with a different name and genre.
It happens.

In different genres, yes. That is true. You can write 100 non-fiction books, including a memoir, and the first novel (fiction) would be your debut novel.

And like Cyia wrote, you can debut in different genres - ie, write an adult historical novel as your true debut novel (ie, the first novel in any genre you publish), but then write a YA and it is your debut YA novel (ie, not your first overall, but first in the YA genre). But then, publishers tend to call that second book, but first in a new genre, your first YA novel, as opposed to debut YA novel, because debut is such a special word.

The very special distinction of debut novel (no genre clarification) you can really only have once. And that distinction has special significance for publishers and agents for marketing reasons. So some use it as first in genre even if not first novel overall, but it is more common to call the later books in new genres as first in the genre, as opposed to debut in genre, at least IME.

~suki

blacbird · Oct 18, 2009

Don't tell 'em.

caw

suki · Oct 18, 2009

blacbird said:
Don't tell 'em.

caw

Fraud much?

~suki

blacbird · Oct 18, 2009

What would be fraudulent about it? You have a self-pubbed pseudonymic book out there, and you're seeking agency representation and traditional publication for other work, under your own name. The self-pubbed volume seems entirely irrelevant, under those circumstances (and probably wasn't a good idea in the first place, but I'm not in a position to judge that).

I've published a number of large book-length academic volumes in a particular scientific specialty, under my given name and title. I don't bring those up, either, when querying agents. Completely unrelated matters.

caw

Fenika · Oct 18, 2009

You say you are planning to self pub. Just wait. What's the rush to lose your vir-- debuthood?

And don't listen to shakey logic. You can debut in a genre, and you can debut a novel, but you can't debut twice and fake it.

Cyia · Oct 18, 2009

suki said:
Fraud much?

~suki

Exactly.

The agent I listed above pointed out that "debut" has a certain amount of luster to it. When an author is published, there will usually be people who go looking for other writings by that author, and there are no secrets from Google. When a fan finds out the "debut" was 3 books in, they cry foul and so does the writer's publisher - who was pushing the "debut" angle as part of the book's hype.

Nateskate · Oct 18, 2009

Is there any great value in this term?

Cyia · Oct 18, 2009

Nateskate said:
Is there any great value in this term?

With a "debut", there's nothing to compare it to. The publisher can hope for great sales.

With a 2nd or 3rd book, the publisher can look at the others, cite lackluster sales, and assume the writer doesn't click with readers. This makes self-pubbed books as a first book all the riskier because those numbers are almost always abysmal.

suki · Oct 18, 2009

blacbird said:
What would be fraudulent about it? You have a self-pubbed pseudonymic book out there, and you're seeking agency representation and traditional publication for other work, under your own name. The self-pubbed volume seems entirely irrelevant, under those circumstances (and probably wasn't a good idea in the first place, but I'm not in a position to judge that).

I've published a number of large book-length academic volumes in a particular scientific specialty, under my given name and title. I don't bring those up, either, when querying agents. Completely unrelated matters.

caw

But when they ask you if you have published anything else or for your writing history (first question my agent asked me, and now I am having to answer it in writing, so it will absolutely be asked and asked early), it would be dishonest not to tell them about the prior book, and then it would be fraudulent to allow the agent to pitch it as your "debut" novel or to allow your publisher to advertise it as your debut novel, without disclosing the earlier book.

So, you play fast and loose if you wish, but to fail to disclose it when asked would be dishonest, could hurt your reputation with the agent, publisher and the public, and if you allowed the book to be marketed dishonestly, it would be potentially fraudulent - especially if it got accolades, award nominations or inclusion in special marketing because of its "debut" status.

Nateskate said:
Is there any great value in this term?

Yes, more or less depending on location of the publication, the genre and numerous other circumstances. In the US, in most genres, "debut" status is valuable for marketing purposes and there are awards and lists for debut novels/debut novelists. I know YA best, and in that genre it is of value and there is a specfic award for debut novelists. The rules require that the book be the author's first published book in any genre.

~suki

blacbird · Oct 18, 2009

suki said:
it would be dishonest not to tell them about the prior book, and then it would be fraudulent to allow the agent to pitch it as your "debut" novel or to allow your publisher to advertise it as your debut novel, without disclosing the earlier book.

I playing Devil's Advocate here a bit, but this is a worthwhile question, for the sake of clarity. How does the situation differ from having an unpubbed novel sitting in a drawer? Doesn't that also make your second (or third or whatever) novel being shopped no longer a "debut" novel? If you pseudonymously self-pubbed something, how does that compete in the marketplace for the "debut" status of another novel, under your own name as author, traditionally accepted and published?

caw

James D. Macdonald · Oct 18, 2009

Nateskate said:
Is there any great value in this term?

None that I can think of.

job · Oct 18, 2009

Nateskate said:
Is there any great value in this term?

Some contest categories are for 'debut' authors only. That's about the only real-world context I can think of.

And the contests themselves will define what they mean by 'debut'.

James D. Macdonald · Oct 18, 2009

About the only awards that are worth a second thought are the Pulitzer, the Nobel, the National Book Award, and the Newbery. And none of them care if it's your first book or your fiftieth.

In my own field, the Hugo, the Nebula, and one of the two awards called "Campbell" don't care in any way about whether the author has previously published.

The other Campbell Award, the John W. Campbell Best New Writer Award, went in 2006 to John Scalzi, even though Scalzi had been regularly published professionally for about twenty years, and he had previously posted the entire novel to his web page before it was picked up for regular print publication.

So, no, I don't think that awards are a big reason to think debut novels are important.

ChaosTitan · Oct 18, 2009

Well, no one's asked, so I will.

Kelli, if you're seeking representation for another novel, why bother self-publishing? There are agents who represent erotica, and there are many good houses out there, both print and e-pub for erotica. I'm curious why you're going the agent route for the YA, but not for your erotica.

Caitlin Black · Oct 18, 2009

I kind of figured that if you published under a pseudonym, and didn't mention your real name in context with it (which is your legal right) then if you went on and published another book under a different name (real or pseudo) this next book would still be the debut novel for that name.

I mean, if it's your legal right to be "anonymous" in the sense of people only knowing a name you made up, then if you published under your real name, nobody would legally be able to link your previous work with your new work. So saying that your new work isn't a debut is misleading for THAT name... readers might go searching in vain for a previous book by that name.

Of course, I don't care much whether I'm right, because I don't see all that much value in the word "debut".

I mean, someone mentioned above that a publisher wants to know if it's your debut novel because of a track record of connecting with the public. But under a different name, you don't have a track record yet, so all I can think is that the previous book could just be used as a telling point over whether to publish you or not, which is lazy, in my opinion, because each work of yours is separate and should be assessed so.

ChaosTitan · Oct 18, 2009

Cliff Face said:
I mean, if it's your legal right to be "anonymous" in the sense of people only knowing a name you made up, then if you published under your real name, nobody would legally be able to link your previous work with your new work.

Legally, you are still connected to anything you publish under a pseudonym. Unless you have legal identification under this pseudonym, your real name (and SS # for tax reasons) will be identified with any published work of yours, whether you self-publish (your real name has to pay) or are signing with an agent. So the only people you are anonymous from is the reading public (and in this day and age, that doesn't always last long).

But setting aside the question of "debut" for a moment, if an agent ever asked you "have you published anything before," you have to say yes. It doesn't matter if it was a pseudonym. Saying no is lying.

Caitlin Black · Oct 18, 2009

By ChaosTitan: "But setting aside the question of "debut" for a moment, if an agent ever asked you "have you published anything before," you have to say yes. It doesn't matter if it was a pseudonym. Saying no is lying."

Oh, I understand that. I was talking purely about the reading public, who are ultimately the bosses of our little industry. If they don't like it, the publisher doesn't like it, and the writer tries something else, and the agent breaks the bad news to everybody.

ChaosTitan: "your real name (and SS # for tax reasons) will be identified with any published work of yours,"

But I thought all that stuff was private information, between you, the publisher, your bank, and your accountant. ?? Kind of like how you can tell a doctor if you've taken drugs, and they can't turn you in...

Libbie · Oct 18, 2009

ChaosTitan said:
Well, no one's asked, so I will.

Kelli, if you're seeking representation for another novel, why bother self-publishing? There are agents who represent erotica, and there are many good houses out there, both print and e-pub for erotica. I'm curious why you're going the agent route for the YA, but not for your erotica.

For reals, yo!

Kelli, get an agent or an editor for your erotica. Don't self-publish. You'll make more money if you do it traditionally.

("DO IT." Erotica. You see what I did there? Ohhhh, it's time for Libbie to go to bed, all right.)

KelliMain · Oct 19, 2009

Libbie said:
For reals, yo!

Kelli, get an agent or an editor for your erotica. Don't self-publish. You'll make more money if you do it traditionally.

("DO IT." Erotica. You see what I did there? Ohhhh, it's time for Libbie to go to bed, all right.)

The reason I wanted to do it on my own is just so I feel like I'm doing something and have control over something. With the great agent search, I put together the best ms I can, get betas, go the SYW route, get partial and full requests, just not an offer yet. The waiting isn't fun - we all know that! But it's necessary, so this was just something that I wanted to do for myself. Something I think would be fun and make me feel like I was being productive while I wait. (Yes, I'm writing another novel in YA too!)

If I do something through Amazon Kindle, it would be novella length most likely, around 10K.

Thanks everyone for all of the responses. I appreciate your help!

swvaughn · Oct 19, 2009

I'm (multiple) small press published under a pseudonym, and my editor at Simon & Schuster, who knows this, is calling my first real-name novel my debut. So I think you should be fine.

Just my experience, though. Haven't read through the rest of this thread, so I'm not sure what others have to say with their experiences.

KTC · Oct 19, 2009

suki said:
Fraud much?

~suki

Oh! Ha. I thought you said Freud.

Debut Author if Self Pubbed Under Pseudo?

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