Will the reader know your character doesn't know a fact vs author's knowledge?

backslashbaby · Oct 17, 2009

I should know this from reading, but I have a brain disconnect reading my own work (that I'm working on

).

I'll just give the 1st draft line to illustrate the question:

The only prayer that came to mind was Catholic and Justisse was pretty sure Catholics didn't even eat pig, much less have a special prayer for a porcine demise.

[go on and suggest stuff on that if you like, btw]

OK, the question is: will the reader know that Justisse thinks this about Catholics, or will they think the author is a big ole dummy

? This is early on in learning about Justisse, so there's no background context of consequence.

Does that make sense? I'm on cold meds, too

melaniehoo · Oct 17, 2009

I think it's clear that it's the character who doesn't know this. As people around here like to say, it's all in how you handle it, but from this example I'd assume it's the character since it's in her voice.

virtue_summer · Oct 17, 2009

It's obvious these are the character's thoughts. Don't worry about it.

Sage · Oct 17, 2009

To be honest, some readers will know it's the character, and others will think it's you. The question is, are you prepared for it?

I've had characters think things that are incorrect, internal to the story (not RL), and had readers say later when the character is shown to be wrong, "But she told us this before!" And I'm like, "Yeah, how would she know differently?"

Also for Shady Lane's book Break, I know there were crits early on about how the "break a bone, grow a stronger bone back" was incorrect, so the author must not know what she's talking about. But it doesn't matter whether Shady believed it or not, it only mattered that the MC believed it.

So just be prepared that some readers will know the difference between you and your characters' beliefs, and others won't.

maestrowork · Oct 17, 2009

If you're writing in the character's POV, then don't worry about it. It's clear it's the character who is not knowledgeable.

backslashbaby · Oct 17, 2009

Oh, good

Sage, that's what I've noticed with betas before, yes!

The Lonely One · Oct 17, 2009

maestrowork said:
If you're writing in the character's POV, then don't worry about it. It's clear it's the character who is not knowledgeable.

Yea. This. If I'm wrapped up in the story I'm going to be all up in the character's persona and won't even think about you (no offense

).

If you presented this same fact in exposition it might come back to you the author, if it rang false.

maestrowork · Oct 17, 2009

The Lonely One said:
Yea. This. If I'm wrapped up in the story I'm going to be all up in the character's persona and won't even think about you (no offense ).

If you presented this same fact in exposition it might come back to you the author, if it rang false.

But exposition is still told from the character's POV (because it is not omniscient) so why would it be detrimental to the author?

BTW, that's how I can get away with lack of details sometimes. In the perfect world, there would be accurate and lengthy details (and boring, too) but my protagonist is only 17 from a small town in SE Asia, so my readers can't expect an encyclopedia of world events in the narrative. To do so would actually have an opposite effect: it doesn't ring true with the character and will draw attention: "The author is showing off."

Omniscient, however, is another thing, since the narrator is "all-knowing," it should not be ignorant of facts, then.

backslashbaby · Oct 17, 2009

Hee Hee. I was going to say, bonus question:

What if it's omni? Mine is actually omni, but I'm on 1st draft I don't make sure everything fits the omni rules at this point.

Does the sentence not work in omni? That is the narrator's voice, btw, not Justisse's. Any thoughts on that quite welcomed; thank you!

backslashbaby · Oct 17, 2009

I'll give my take on it at the moment.

The only prayer that came to mind was Catholic and Justisse was pretty sure Catholics didn't even eat pig, much less have a special prayer for a porcine demise.

I think the narrator is just relaying what Justisse was thinking. Yes, he is 'in' or 'with' Justisse at this point, but it's his voice. Would I have to say 'came to her mind'? That might help the omni problem.

Oh, I do hope I don't have to give more to read

! Let's assume that there was a graceful dipping into Justisse, whereas exposition on 'real life' is clear that it's the narrator, and true. Exposition in the characters shows some bizarre views.

Hopefully

The Lonely One · Oct 17, 2009

maestrowork said:
But exposition is still told from the character's POV (because it is not omniscient) so why would it be detrimental to the author?

BTW, that's how I can get away with lack of details sometimes. In the perfect world, there would be accurate and lengthy details (and boring, too) but my protagonist is only 17 from a small town in SE Asia, so my readers can't expect an encyclopedia of world events in the narrative. To do so would actually have an opposite effect: it doesn't ring true with the character and will draw attention: "The author is showing off."

Omniscient, however, is another thing, since the narrator is "all-knowing," it should not be ignorant of facts, then.

Well, what about this, though (maybe exposition wasn't the right word):

"I'm going to some country in Africa to visit, I think it's called Nigerium," Character said.

Character boarded a plane to Nigerium and left posthaste.

You wouldn't throw that at the author? at the very least I'd blame the author for choosing a dumbass narrator. And for naming their character Character.

Lady Ice · Oct 17, 2009

Justisse sounds a bit dippy. If you make her too dippy, people might get fed up.

The Lonely One · Oct 17, 2009

The only prayer that came to mind was Catholic and Justisse was pretty sure Catholics didn't even eat pig, much less have a special prayer for a porcine demise.

The red parts indicate POV. It's the narrator's voice but it's Justisse's thoughts and opinions, so I think it works just fine.

backslashbaby · Oct 17, 2009

Really good one, Lonely One!

That says the narrator thought Nigerium was a correct name. Which seems very bad, yes

Hmmm, mine feels different. But is it?

The Lonely One · Oct 17, 2009

backslashbaby said:
Really good one, Lonely One!

That says the narrator thought Nigerium was a correct name. Which seems very bad, yes

Hmmm, mine feels different. But is it?

I think it is--see my above post

backslashbaby · Oct 17, 2009

Lady Ice said:
Justisse sounds a bit dippy. If you make her too dippy, people might get fed up.

She is

But she's lovable

Great point!

I'm going for a kind of Alice In Wonderland or Rocky Horror effect. Y'all are supposed to know she's dippy but root for her anyway

EDIT: Thanks, Lonely!!! I'm bad at keeping up...

Sage · Oct 17, 2009

Yours is definitely different, BSB. The "was pretty sure" clearly indicates that it's the character's POV.

job · Oct 17, 2009

Looking at the example you give ... I'd say you're doing fine.

Sam thought; it was Sam's considered opinion; in Sam's world; Sam came up with; Sam held firmly to the notion that; operating on Sam's odd view of things ... all of these let you, (the narrator and author,) off the hook.

The more you do this, the more the reader will 'get' what you're doing.

backslashbaby · Oct 17, 2009

Thanks, Sage

Job, that list is very helpful. Awesome. Thanks!

Additions to that list would rock, if anyone would like to throw more out there.

The structure of all this is difficult because of the choice of omni. Some parts seem easy, but others get tough, imho. I'm really hoping it can stay in omni; we'll see!

maestrowork · Oct 17, 2009

backslashbaby said:
I'll give my take on it at the moment.

The only prayer that came to mind was Catholic and Justisse was pretty sure Catholics didn't even eat pig, much less have a special prayer for a porcine demise.

I think the narrator is just relaying what Justisse was thinking. Yes, he is 'in' or 'with' Justisse at this point, but it's his voice. Would I have to say 'came to her mind'? That might help the omni problem.

It reads fine because the omniscient narrator is telling us what Justisse thinks or believes.

Now if you'd written it this way, it would be a problem:

The only prayer that came to mind was Catholic and Catholics didn't even eat pig, much less have a special prayer for a porcine demise.

maestrowork · Oct 17, 2009

The Lonely One said:
You wouldn't throw that at the author? at the very least I'd blame the author for choosing a dumbass narrator. And for naming their character Character.

If it's the character's POV, I really don't see a problem. The narrator's job isn't to "correct" the character for the readers, but to report and describe through the character's POV. The narrative is still in the character's POV, so the mistake could stay. I'm talking about 3rd limited, by the way. Like I said, omniscient narrator is different.

However, sooner or later, I'd assume some character will have to correct the character and say, "Listen, it's Nigeria, dumbass."

p.s. that's why 3rd limited could be inherently tricky. There is, technically speaking, a narrator but the narrator is rather a passive observer. However, when you tell the story through the character's POV, then it becomes murky. You're supposed to filter, but at the same time, when you don't, your readers may think, "oh the narrator/author is a dumbass" when it is the character who is ignorant. So it's something to think about when writing in 3rd limited.

backslashbaby · Oct 17, 2009

maestrowork said:
It reads fine because the omniscient narrator is telling us what Justisse thinks or believes.

Now if you'd written it this way, it would be a problem:

The only prayer that came to mind was Catholic and Catholics didn't even eat pig, much less have a special prayer for a porcine demise.

Excellent! That makes sense. I really appreciate y'all breaking all of this down

The Lonely One · Oct 17, 2009

this:

Character boarded a plane to Nigerium and left posthaste.

and your example

The only prayer that came to mind was Catholic and Catholics didn't even eat pig, much less have a special prayer for a porcine demise.

are one in the same, I think. They're both the narrator presenting a fact that's untrue--neither is from a character POV, it's just said matter-of-factly of the narrator's own will.

It presents a problem of reliability on the narrator's part.

Aren't we showing the same problem with our examples or am I misreading something (which is possible)?

The Lonely One · Oct 17, 2009

I'm talking about 3rd limited, by the way. Like I said, omniscient narrator is different.

Is a 3rd limited narrator of the same basic intelligence as the character? I truly don't have the experience to know better, but I wouldn't think the narrator would purposely mislead readers to actually believing in a place called Nigerium (unless Character was headed to Africum). I would think my sentence would more appropriately read something like:

"Character boarded a plane to the country he mistakenly but earnestly called 'Nigerium' posthaste."

maestrowork · Oct 17, 2009

The Lonely One said:
"Character boarded a plane to the country he mistakenly but earnestly called 'Nigerium' posthaste."

No, because that would be narrative intrusion (again, we're talking about 3rd limited, not omniscient). It's self-awareness that the POV character doesn't have. Remember, 3rd limited means it's LIMITED to the character's perceptions, thoughts and feelings.

Who IS correcting the character? Who is saying the character has "mistaken"? To me, that's jumping OUT of POV. It's like writing this:

"Character boarded a plane and didn't know there was a fly on his head."

You've now stepped into omniscient, because the character shouldn't know about the fly, and he certainly doesn't know he's made a mistake by calling the country Nigerium.

Will the reader know your character doesn't know a fact vs author's knowledge?

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