Appeasing Islam

[RikkiKane]

I don't know about the USA, but in the UK I think writers are discouraged to write about Islam in novels, and they are sometimes even threatened and attacked, unless of course the writer wants to buy into the politically correct ploclomations that Islam is a religion of peace the writer is willing to make this clear in his/her writing.

My protagonist feels differently though. He feels its necessary to speak up and tell people about the 493 verses in the Koran that speak of Alla's hatred for non-believers and how we're all bound to eternal hell fire and how Muslims have a religious duty to spread their religion around the world using all means necessary (inclusing violence and murder).

My character feels its necessary to express his anger over Muslims saving their real outrage for times when a Western leader makes a public statement against veils and headscarves, or someone draws a Muhammad cartoon, whilst seem to caring little about the tens of thousands of people who lose their lives in the name of this religion each year.

My point is, are publishers and writers genereally afraid to publish this kind of stuff? I certainly think so.

[OddButInteresting]

Ever since Komeini snuffed it, I'd say you're fairly safe. Especially given the recent best-selling wave of Athiest non-fiction.

Rushdie may have written 'The Satanic Verses' in ignorance of the consequences, but he should have known better. He took a risk, he paid the price, and now he's virtually a celebrity. Even Dan Brown and J K Rowling aren't awarded the exposure that he gets in the media.

I don't think that publishers are afraid, but be aware of the potential consequences.

[IdiotsRUs]

I don't know about the USA, but in the UK I think writers are discouraged to write about Islam in novels,

Are they? Can't say I'd noticed.




and they are sometimes even threatened and attacked,

Rushdie had a fatwa put on him. But that wasn't because of where he lived, or by British Islamics. It was issued by the Iranians. He could have lived in the Maldives or with Imuits, and they'd still have done it

I'm not aware of any other threats or attacks in the UK due to writing about Islam


My protagonist feels differently though. He feels its necessary to speak up and tell people about the 493 verses in the Koran that speak of Alla's hatred for non-believers and how we're all bound to eternal hell fire and how Muslims have a religious duty to spread their religion around the world using all means necessary (inclusing violence and murder).

My character feels its necessary to express his anger over Muslims saving their real outrage for times when a Western leader makes a public statement against veils and headscarves, or someone draws a Muhammad cartoon, whilst seem to caring little about the tens of thousands of people who lose their lives in the name of this religion each year.

My point is, are publishers and writers genereally afraid to publish this kind of stuff? I certainly think so.

Well Rushdie's publishers obviously weren't afraid to take a risk.

However, depending on who you've written it ( long winded sermons probably won't go down well for instance, but belief moving the plot through conflict and inner growth of your protag might well do) it might be a harder sell.


You don't know till you try.

[maestrowork]

To me, it's one thing to write about Islam as realistically as you can and present all the different aspects of them (good, bad, indifferent) without being politically correct. It's another to write a story that focuses on how bad Islam is or the bad aspect of the religion. It would be no different than writing a story attacking Catholicism -- if you write one, you may have a tough time placing it. Then again, Dan Brown wrote some really scathing things about the Catholic church in his books -- still, he doesn't portray them all as evil people. So, even if you don't want to be politically correct, you still want to be "correct" when you deal with a religion.

whilst seem to caring little about the tens of thousands of people who lose their lives in the name of this religion each year.

While this is a legit feeling of the protagonist, but it also seems biased because there are Muslims who care. So if you write it, you need to figure out why you're writing this -- are you trying to be political here and write something derogatory on Islam, or are you trying to present a thought-provoking story about the Islam faith.

I think your intention would determine if you have a market or if it will become too polarizing.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I don't know about the USA, but in the UK I think writers are discouraged to write about Islam in novels, and they are sometimes even threatened and attacked, unless of course the writer wants to buy into the politically correct ploclomations that Islam is a religion of peace the writer is willing to make this clear in his/her writing.



Discouraged by whom? The government? Here in America we believe in Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press.

And the majority of Muslims are peaceful (most are just ordinary people, just like most Christians). It's the radical Islamics that cause all the trouble and grab all the headlines.

[LuckyH]

A thread like this is going to test several strong=held beliefs about a writer’s freedom of expression. Of course, we’re never totally free anyway, most countries have laws about libel and spreading racial hatred, but the mere mention of Islam will send people racing down their rabbit holes with their fingers stuck in their ears, or the weirdoes will suddenly sit up and sharpen their pencils.

As an ordinary writer, I try and be as brave as possible, and I will tackle most things, but if I’m going to try and write about something like Islam, I would need to at least have read the Koran. I haven’t, so I leave it alone, but, by Christ, I’ve given my own religion some stick in the past.

[IdiotsRUs]

Of course, we’re never totally free anyway, most countries have laws about libel and spreading racial hatred,

That's the only 'discouragement' I can think of. Libel laws, obviously - and incitement of religious hatred, which is a crime here.

If you aren't saying 'Hate Islam!' - and I should certainly hope you aren't - it doesn't contravene any laws though, so I can't see why it'd be a problem. ( to most Muslims anyway. Who knows what the radicals will think? But that goes for all radicals, of all religions.)

[The Lonely One]

Yes, if this writer wrote a non-fiction book about how awful islam is, or a fiction book thinly veiled as a political agenda against islam, I would consider it anti-islam propaganda.

If the author wrote a book about a protagonist (FICTION: remember everyone, the author and his/her characters are not the same--don't we bring this up all the time to protect ourselves from misunderstanding?) who felt this way, which is an accurate representation of some Americans, and explored this character in a fictional way, then I don't see why it couldn't be written.

On the one hand I've long been put off by religious conflict in fiction, because...well, it basically comes with built in conflict, like an ER room on television--it almost feels stock or easy. But that doesn't mean it can't be done well (for instance, I feel ER is a good show while Grey's Anatomy, a not so good show, relies on these simple parallel tricks between patients and characters to draw on melodrama).

Be aware that the point of view you're presenting is ordinary, though, not unique. There are many Americans who feel the way your character feels, and many who oppose the view. It's one of the basic western stances on Islam and has been very prevalent as an argument since the September 11 attacks.

So my advice would be to make your character unique, and most of all make him change somehow. A static character who simply expresses his views in a book is a dead giveaway that the author is trying to tell you some kind of moral (think "God's Debris" or "Ishmael"), and that's not what you want.

Your character should be thrust into a situation that alters him in some way or another. Because, well, I think that's one of the basic mechanics of most fiction.

So, I think you can do it. But just be aware of what your story is and how it presents itself.

EDIT: Just so all users know, I'm not presenting a view one way or the other here. My post is approaching this purely as a fiction book and how it would work thusly.

[job]

Certainly characters can hold extreme political views.
How are those extreme characters presented?
If statements of 'I can find six hundred and thirty lines in the Bible that prove ...' followed by rant de jour, scatter the work, unchallenged, this is going to make the book a wall-banger for most readers.

I don't think the publishing industry discourages writers from producing politically slanted fiction. But agents and publishers want books that sell. The market for books that present this particular political view may be quite robust.
Or not.
And if the market isn't there, the manuscript won't get bought.

Will publishers be scared off by an anti-Islamic slant in particular?

In the sense of fearful for their lives ... not so much, I think.
In the sense of dodging adverse public opinion ... quite a bit.

I'd say it's unlikely publishers will pass on an excellent book merely because it espouses an extreme political view. A mediocre book of this kind, however, might be considered more trouble than it's worth. No company wants to face intelligent, well-considered public annoyance over some piece of 'meh' writing.

And, speaking in terms of good writing . . .
Sam Goldwyn said, "If you want to send a message, call Western Union."

[Dark Angel]

I don't know about the USA, but in the UK I think writers are discouraged to write about Islam in novels, and they are sometimes even threatened and attacked, unless of course the writer wants to buy into the politically correct ploclomations that Islam is a religion of peace the writer is willing to make this clear in his/her writing.

My protagonist feels differently though. He feels its necessary to speak up and tell people about the 493 verses in the Koran that speak of Alla's hatred for non-believers and how we're all bound to eternal hell fire and how Muslims have a religious duty to spread their religion around the world using all means necessary (inclusing violence and murder).

My character feels its necessary to express his anger over Muslims saving their real outrage for times when a Western leader makes a public statement against veils and headscarves, or someone draws a Muhammad cartoon, whilst seem to caring little about the tens of thousands of people who lose their lives in the name of this religion each year.

My point is, are publishers and writers genereally afraid to publish this kind of stuff? I certainly think so.

First of, you're trying to appease Muslims and not Islam.

Second, I have been an active member of the Muslim community and the many political organisations in the UK and know of no incident in which authors were or have been attacked about propogating Islam in a negative light in literature in the UK.

Thirdly, books of the sort that you are talking about have been written e.g. 'Maps for Lost Lovers' by Nadeem Aslam.

Fourthly, the fact that you are presenting a case that the 400 + so-called violent verses in the Quran arouses suspicions as to a political agenda.

Fifthly, Rushdie's book 'The Satanic Verses' were overhyped as being anti-Islamic by certain political forces in India and throughout the world, which led to widespread protests and unfortunate fatalities. The Iranians banned the book not because it was anti-Islamic but because it 'appeared' to be a slap in the face of the West. There's always a political agenda to these things.

And last but not least, and this is speaking for myself, it is very easy at times to identify when an author is trying to promote/force his or her agenda on to their readers. Do they think we're stupid? As if by placing their own hate-filled words in another persons mouth will excuse them from their own views. If you feel it then say but don't try to manipulate readers.

Another thing that I may add, Islamaphobia has been around for a long time as has hatred of the West. These issues are sensitive and have been handled very well so far in literature (from the books that I have read). Though Edward Said in his defining work 'Orientalism' would disagree with my statement given the historical legacy of western civilisation to distort and portray eastern civilisations as barbaric, backwards and inherently aggressive.

See how easy it is to use other peoples views to mask your own?

[BigWords]

Does it have to be Islam? Isn't there other religions out there which have nutjobs who misread the text and bring their religion into a political sphere? Gee, it isn't as if there could possibly be Christian, Hindu or Bhuddist terrorists acting upon skewed views, could there? That would be ridiculous...

[The Lonely One]

Does it have to be Islam? Isn't there other religions out there which have nutjobs who misread the text and bring their religion into a political sphere? Gee, it isn't as if there could possibly be Christian, Hindu or Bhuddist terrorists acting upon skewed views, could there? That would be ridiculous...

That's what I mean about religion having built-in tensions that extend beyond the text. Look at the tension already building here in this thread. And no one's even read a word of this book.

[Samantha's_Song]

Are you going to let others tell you what you can or cannot write? Write the novel, take no notice of the politically correct brigade, including on here, after all how many novels and films have we seen about the Irish and the IRA? I doubt as if the writers of those were frightened of offending the 'other' side. If you can't sell your novel here, because everyone has to be so squeakily correct about everything these days, then try outside of England and the UK. Simple really.

My point is, are publishers and writers genereally afraid to publish this kind of stuff? I certainly think so.

[maestrowork]

Are you going to let others tell you what you can or cannot write? Write the novel, take no notice of the politically correct brigade, including on here, after all how many novels and films have we seen about the Irish and the IRA? I doubt as if the writers of those were frightened of offending the 'other' side. If you can't sell your novel here, because everyone has to be so squeakily correct about everything these days, then try outside of England and the UK. Simple really.

Of course you're right, but a writer also should take care of not presenting only one side, especially if it's religiously or politically charged, because that could easily become a propaganda piece. Or at the very least, coming off as stereotypical, like how all the Arabs in movies are terrorists.

[BigWords]

I get the feeling that the "Islam Is Evil" trope may never be quashed. It's neither inherently good nor bad (same with any other religious text), and the negative associations with some (stupid) people who like to cause mayhem and terror are being fueled by extremely right-wing newspapers. Adding to the ignorance about a particular subset of individuals in a society is putting a lot of extra work on yourself.

Write the story, then think about the way you have approached the facts you are using. If it is needlessly inflammatory then you might want to rework some aspects to avoid allegations of any anti-Islamic sentiments.

[LuckyH]

I got fed up down my rabbit hole, and I’ve had a good look around, so here goes:

Would mainstream publishers take on a book expressing anti-Islamic views from a non-famous author? I don’t think so, there’s too much evidence all around that the Islamic religion demands respect from others, because of its own teachings, and will take action against those who don’t show that respect.

And what would be the point in publishing such a book? Religion doesn’t sell, sex does. As does adventure, romance, science fiction, vampire wars, and plain old detective stories.

We’ve been subjected to a long conflict between extremists on other side, if there is even such a thing as either side. Horror piled upon horror, injustice heaped on ignorance, and a long line of preachers, with or without beards, boring us silly.

I don’t want to read about it anymore, and I don’t want to think about it any more, give me the seductive rustle of nylon, or even the odd vampire sucking the blood out of the pale and helpless young girl, and let the preachers rot in their churches, mosques, or whatever.

(I’ll just add one little thing: the bravest man I’ve ever seen was Saddam when they placed that noose around his neck).

[Samantha's_Song]

For myself, I don't necessarily think that a hateful character is portraying the author's feelings, it's just that, a character. As an example: I like football hooligan films, I don't watch football, I think it's boring, but I like the films and dare I say, the violence in them - I'm not a violent person though. In one of these films you are never going to get the characters to present the other sides team or fans in a good light, take Millwall and West Ham, but I don't ever think that the writers of these films are biased towards one side.
Btw, I wouldn't read a novel about this subject either, but some men do see their football teams in the same light as others see their religions. You can't please everyone, and bias in a film or novel wouldn't make me not want to see or read it.

As films go, I like the ones about the Vietnam war, they are mostly done from the American side and I think they were wrong, but that wouldn't stop me watching those films either.
Of course you're right, but a writer also should take care of not presenting only one side, especially if it's religiously or politically charged, because that could easily become a propaganda piece. Or at the very least, coming off as stereotypical, like how all the Arabs in movies are terrorists.

[Samantha's_Song]

Really? I don't ever buy erotic or romances, never will, and The holy blood and the holy grail is my most favourite book of all time.

I've also read many books on Hinduism, Buddhism and Zen Buddhism. Plus, Paramhansa Yogananda's, The autobiography of a Yogi. So religion sells to me.
Religion doesn’t sell, sex does.

[RikkiKane]

Discouraged by whom? The government? Here in America we believe in Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press.

And the majority of Muslims are peaceful (most are just ordinary people, just like most Christians). It's the radical Islamics that cause all the trouble and grab all the headlines.

Yes, most Muslims are peaceful as so many people are quick to point out. But my character is very intelligent, and fully aware that most Muslims don't kill because they are more loyal to the rules that are written in the human heart than they are to Mohammed's bloodthirsty teachings.

My novel isn't based on how wicked and dangerous Islam, but my character does end up loosing his job over voicing his opinion about the faith after loosing a friend in the London bombings. He sends round an email in work, replying to all the politically correct people who earnestly believe that Islam prohibits the killing of innocent people, and he tells them that the truth is much more complicated.

He explains why the Jihadis and their detractors are both able to point fingers at the other, while confidently insisting that they are the true Muslims. He also explains why organizations that commit horrible atrocities in the name of Allah, such as Hamas and Hezbollah, receive moral and financial support from mainstream Muslims and Islamic charities.

That's about it.

[maestrowork]

If religion didn't sell, Dan Brown wouldn't have made a fortune with the Da Vinci Code (because, quite honestly, the central treasure-hunt plot is a bit ho-hum without the religious intrigue).

[Lucy Dashwood]

I started a novel about islam in the USA and it was like radioactive even though it wasn't extreme and was based in fact. There wasn't an agent who would touch it. One admitted she didn't want a fatwa put on her. Another one basically called me islamophobic for even thinking such thoughts.

[Samantha's_Song]

Which he nicked from The holy blood and the holy grail. :tongue
If religion didn't sell, Dan Brown wouldn't have made a fortune with the Da Vinci Code (because, quite honestly, the central treasure-hunt plot is a bit ho-hum without the religious intrigue).

[maestrowork]

He explains why the Jihadis and their detractors are both able to point fingers at the other, while confidently insisting that they are the true Muslims. He also explains why organizations that commit horrible atrocities in the name of Allah, such as Hamas and Hezbollah, receive moral and financial support from mainstream Muslims and Islamic charities.

That's about it.

As long as you're being true to the character, and as long as you present it not as a "message" (as if you want people to believe that Muslims are evil and Islam's message is to destroy non-believers), I think you're good to go. But also, it depends on your character's arc. If he holds such anti-Islam beliefs and then prevails at the end with this belief intact, then you may have a problem convincing others that you, the writer, is not anti-Islam.


An example would be the movie Gran Torino. The main character is unapologetically racist. That's the way he was brought up and trained. The audience knows he's wrong but that's his character, but eventually, he learns to realize that his views are not true and he comes around. There are still bad people in the movie who are racial minorities, but there are also good people.

Now, is that a message movie? Probably, but it's done in such a way that it's true to the character. Not that I think you're writing a "learn the lesson" type of story, but it's something to think about when you tackle something such as anti-Islam sentiments. What is the story about?

[Libbie]

If your story is good, it'll find a publisher. Even if it's not so good. The Jewel of Medina left me pretty cold, and I usually jump all over middle-eastern historicals.

[RikkiKane]

I started a novel about islam in the USA and it was like radioactive even though it wasn't extreme and was based in fact. There wasn't an agent who would touch it. One admitted she didn't want a fatwa put on her. Another one basically called me islamophobic for even thinking such thoughts.


This is exactly what I'm afraid of. Let's face it, it's what many writers and publishers are probably afraid of. I'm afraid to write about Islam, but my characters feelings about it (which are indeed similar to my own) fit in perfectly with my story.

One thing I do know: there are so many people who feel angry and threatened by this religion and what it gets away with. And I thought people may really enjoy this part of my novel. All we can do in London is sit back in our offices and accept people’s word that that suicide bomber represents a tiny minority of Muslims (which is true but also irrelevant).

But we are not allowed to address the fact that large numbers of the Muslim community sympathize with Islamic terrorists, would favor shariah law in Britain, and the fact that this religion causes communal conflict, civil war, and death to every country where it gets a foothold.

All we are allowed to do in Briatin, is sit back and watch the Islamisation of our country develop into advanced stages.

[maestrowork]

...my characters feelings about it (which are indeed similar to my own) fit in perfectly with my story.

...accept people’s word that that suicide bomber represents a tiny minority of Muslims (which is true but also irrelevant).

But we are not allowed to address the fact that large numbers of the Muslim community sympathize with Islamic terrorists...

Fact?


Unfortunately, it seems like you are going to be writing a propaganda anti-Islam novel.

Good luck.

[RikkiKane]

As long as you're being true to the character, and as long as you present it not as a "message" (as if you want people to believe that Muslims are evil and Islam's message is to destroy non-believers), I think you're good to go. But also, it depends on your character's arc. If he holds such anti-Islam beliefs and then prevails at the end with this belief intact, then you may have a problem convincing others that you, the writer, is not anti-Islam.


An example would be the movie Gran Torino. The main character is unapologetically racist. That's the way he was brought up and trained. The audience knows he's wrong but that's his character, but eventually, he learns to realize that his views are not true and he comes around. There are still bad people in the movie who are racial minorities, but there are also good people.

Now, is that a message movie? Probably, but it's done in such a way that it's true to the character. Not that I think you're writing a "learn the lesson" type of story, but it's something to think about when you tackle something such as anti-Islam sentiments. What is the story about?


I am anti-Islam. But I'm not anti-Muslim.

My story is about a man who suffers from mental illness and cocaine addiction. He is extremely funny and controversial, and he has a passion for the United States of America which most people in London don’t like.

[The Lonely One]

I wouldn't read it if I felt like it was you sharing your views on Islam. Because honestly I don't care.

But I might read it if it were about a character with these views, who wants something and goes through a plot arc that's compelling.

[IdiotsRUs]

This is exactly what I'm afraid of. Let's face it, it's what many writers and publishers are probably afraid of.

Again - a lot depends on how it's written If it comes across as an anti-islamic rant it would not be pubished ( and under religious hatred laws, might even be illegal) They'll publish works about overcoming bigotry - but probably not about indulging it. ( That would probably go for all kinds of it, not just anti-Islam sentiment, but anti-Irish, anti-semitism etc)

If it's an exploration of one man's experience of Islam that shows both the good and bad, I don't think anyone would be afraid of it. They might, it's true.

But if you've written it well enough, and haven't sermonised, I don't think there'd be a huge problem

All we can do in London is sit back in our offices and accept people’s word that that suicide bomber represents a tiny minority of Muslims (which is true but also irrelevant).

Bollocks is siting back all we can do - and I accept facts.

But we are not allowed to address the fact that large numbers of the Muslim community sympathize with Islamic terrorists, would favor shariah law in Britain, and the fact that this religion causes communal conflict, civil war, and death to every country where it gets a foothold.

You read the Daily Mail don't you? :D

People can - and do - address that fact. Whether the government listens is another matter. But that's what elections are for
All we are allowed to do in Briatin, is sit back and watch the Islamisation of our country develop into advanced stages.


Again - bollocks.

ETA: he has a passion for the United States of America which most people in London don’t like.

When did that happen? I know plenty of people who weren't too keen on Bush and his international policy. Or weren't fans of individual Yanks. ( Sometimes the tourists aren't the best ambassadors)But not many who didn't, on balance, like America for the most part.

Except when they screw with history in Hollywood...but's that's a whole 'nother thread right there.

[Mara]

EDIT2: Just to make sure things stay on topic, I'm saying that yes, mainstream publishers will avoid books that are just vehicles for anti-Islamic essays.

RikkiKane:
Do you really have any idea how you sound?

I don't think many publishers are going to be interested. It's not that they're afraid of Muslims so much as they don't want to be associated with someone that they would view as a hardcore bigot. If nothing else, because hardcore bigots these days usually only write long, boring rants disguised as fiction.

If it's really interesting, though, and you find the right publisher with the right (lack of) morality, you'll probably get it published. You might even be very successful. Heck, they might even make a movie about your book, like they did when they took the novel "The Clansman" (about a violent racist hero) and made the first full-length movie, "Birth of a Nation."

So, basically, your prospects are either not getting published or being hailed as a hero by Stormfront and other extremist groups, and probably contributing to a lot of human misery. Is that really what you want?

EDIT: What I'm saying is that it doesn't sound like you're going to write a story. It sounds like you're going to write a 300-page infodump on reasons you hate Islam. Your character sounds like a Mary-Sue who shares your view and will be presented as objectively correct about everything. Also, it sounds like the plot centers around him walking around and telling people that Islam is bad. That does not sound very exciting.

So, basically, it sounds like persuasion rather than entertainment. People will accept a little bigotry in entertainment, even if it's wrong, but they don't want it in persuasion unless it matches their own.

[James D. Macdonald]

This is getting seriously off-topic.

[RG570]

This thread is absurd.

Maybe someone ought to sweep it into the gutter where it belongs.

Advice to the OP: transpose your story into a generic science fiction setting and send it to Baen. They'll love it.

[LuckyH]

I sympathise with the OP in one respect, the result of the dangerous development in some parts of London where Islamists really have taken over to the detriment of other inhabitants.

I own a house in Manor Park, which will mean nothing to most members of this forum, but the OP will know what I mean. The local Muslim population is in the majority there, almost all of my neighbours are Muslims, with a smattering of Hindus and Sikhs.

I don’t have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with the radicalised, British -born Muslims, whose hatred for anything Christian is very apparent and has been the subject of several recent court cases.

But they are still a minority and I wouldn’t write a book based on my experiences, fictional or otherwise, because I don’t understand enough of it, and I know that it would never be published anyway.

I’m hesitating over the next part in case the liberals get on my case. The house is now rented out and I’ve moved away.

[LuckyH]

This is getting seriously off-topic.

Where?

[Slushie]

This is exactly what I'm afraid of. Let's face it, it's what many writers and publishers are probably afraid of. I'm afraid to write about Islam, but my characters feelings about it (which are indeed similar to my own) fit in perfectly with my story.

One thing I do know: there are so many people who feel angry and threatened by this religion and what it gets away with. And I thought people may really enjoy this part of my novel. All we can do in London is sit back in our offices and accept people’s word that that suicide bomber represents a tiny minority of Muslims (which is true but also irrelevant).

But we are not allowed to address the fact that large numbers of the Muslim community sympathize with Islamic terrorists, would favor shariah law in Britain, and the fact that this religion causes communal conflict, civil war, and death to every country where it gets a foothold.

All we are allowed to do in Briatin, is sit back and watch the Islamisation of our country develop into advanced stages.

Okay...

I'm going to draw an abstract comparison here but I think you'll see my point. Look at 1984. The *theme* of the book is how a revolution for freedom can birth a totalitarian government that abolishes freedom. But not once in the book does Orwell go on a page long rant about how government is evil because they restrict the rights of an individual...he shows (repeat: shows) it with the plot and lets the reader draw the conclusion. He does it masterfully and that's why (even though politically charged) his book is a landmark of fiction.

Just because a topic is controversial doesn't mean it should be avoided. Controversy sells just as well as sex and violence (and violently sexy vampires), so this isn't something you should shy away from. But be careful. It's a fine line between a profound social statement subtly shown to the reader and just another whiny rant.

That post I quoted comes across as a frustrated rant. Hopefully your book doesn't carry that tone.

Good luck.:)

P.S. This thread could descend into an internet crusade, so let's keep on keeping it civil. I'm sure Big Brother is watching...

[LuckyH]

Okay...

I'm going to draw an abstract comparison here but I think you'll see my point. Look at 1984. The *theme* of the book is how a revolution for freedom can birth a totalitarian government that abolishes freedom. But not once in the book does Orwell go on a page long rant about how government is evil because they restrict the rights of an individual...he shows (repeat: shows) it with the plot and lets the reader draw the conclusion. He does it masterfully and that's why (even though politically charged) his book is a landmark of fiction.

Just because a topic is controversial doesn't mean it should be avoided. Controversy sells just as well as sex and violence (and violently sexy vampires), so this isn't something you should shy away from. But be careful. It's a fine line between a profound social statement subtly shown to the reader and just another whiny rant.

That post I quoted comes across as a frustrated rant. Hopefully your book doesn't carry that tone.

Good luck.:)

P.S. This thread could descend into an internet crusade, so let's keep on keeping it civil. I'm sure Big Brother is watching...

Perfect, I wish I could have thought of that – a comparison between 1984 and the Satanic Verses, obliquely. Orwell didn’t criticize the establishment, and nor did Rushdie, not directly, not openly, but in such a way that the pain was much greater, and more appreciated by the reader.

If the establishment in 1984 could have issued a fatwa against Orwell, they would have done, and it would have been a painful one, much worse than Khomeini’s.

That’s the way to do it, subtly, sleekitly, show your dislike (hate) without being obvious, it works far better than an outright condemnation of something you feel strongly about.

[backslashbaby]

Perfect, I wish I could have thought of that – a comparison between 1984 and the Satanic Verses, obliquely. Orwell didn’t criticize the establishment, and nor did Rushdie, not directly, not openly, but in such a way that the pain was much greater, and more appreciated by the reader.

If the establishment in 1984 could have issued a fatwa against Orwell, they would have done, and it would have been a painful one, much worse than Khomeini’s.

That’s the way to do it, subtly, sleekitly, show your dislike (hate) without being obvious, it works far better than an outright condemnation of something you feel strongly about.

Oh, you can satirize something you hate, for sure. But you still need to find readers who care about reading your point of view, no matter how you put it.

[LuckyH]

I agree, but that’s where your words carry you through, those beautifully crafted flashes of pure genius, the humility perfectly balanced by subtle authority, the love-affair with your readers, and their knowledge that you mean every word.

I like your avatar.

[Birol]

I'm letting this thread continue for the time being.

[LuckyH]

I totally agree with the majority of posters who are of the opinion that a novel, even hinting at an attack against Islam, will not be published. There’s quite enough trouble in the world already.

I took an interest in that recent, not yet fully concluded court case where a dozen or so British born Muslims planned to explode six aeroplanes over American cities. The reason I took an interest is that all of the defendants live within walking distance of my house in east London, one of them lived a street away.

I don’t know any of them personally, but I must have met hundreds just like them. I’ve sat in my neighbours’ houses and listened to young, intelligent Muslims express a hatred of Americans that is frighteningly unnatural.

I’m not clever enough to write about it, but maybe, one day, someone who is clever enough, will. He will probably need life-long police protection afterwards.

[Wayne K]

To answer the OP there is a market for anything. Will it sell? is the question. I don't know enough about the subject as it applies to publishing, so I can't answer that question. Will publishers shy away from it. Maybe. If the book comes across as your personal opinion, probably. After Satanic Verses, I certainly would.

[Samantha's_Song]

So in the end, the fundamentalists are winning and taking over the world after all, as we're being dictated to as what we can write or read by them. How come people who wrote about the IRA or Basque Separatists never needed police protection and agents/publishers weren't afraid of the novels?

The lunatics are taking over the asylum and we're cowardly letting them.

[Samantha's_Song]

Come to think of it, one of the outlines I have for a novel is about two Basque Separatist brothers, would anyone tell me not to write that or that agents would be afraid of publishing it, in fear of their lives? No, I didn't think so either.

[defcon6000]

If it's really interesting, though, and you find the right publisher with the right (lack of) morality, you'll probably get it published. You might even be very successful. Heck, they might even make a movie about your book, like they did when they took the novel "The Clansman" (about a violent racist hero) and made the first full-length movie, "Birth of a Nation."

That was back in 1915 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation), I doubt that such a film would fly today. ;)

It's not really a moral issue though, we are all entitled to our opinion, it's just who wants to hear your opinion?
I have to agree with others, I don't want to read a rant about someone who's anti-Islamic, even if there's a some factual evidence of it in the Qur’an. Really, you could make up a religion with those characteristics, set in another world or another time and it would be the same thing: a rant.
But you would aggro a lot less if it's all parallelism.

[Wayne K]

If a publisher shys away from a book because of the possible loss of money, why not for fear of their employees lives?

As of early 2009 Rushdie has not been physically harmed, but others connected with the book have suffered violent attacks. Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese language translator of the book, was stabbed to death on July 11, 1991; Ettore Capriolo, the Italian language translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month; William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, barely survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October 1993, and Aziz Nesin, the Turkish language translator, was the intended target in the events that led to the Sivas massacre on July 2, 1993 in Sivas, Turkey which resulted in the deaths of 37 people.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying a publisher will probably consider it if the book is over the top hateful

Not that yours is.

[IdiotsRUs]

Come to think of it, one of the outlines I have for a novel is about two Basque Separatist brothers, would anyone tell me not to write that or that agents would be afraid of publishing it, in fear of their lives? No, I didn't think so either.



A book about individuals and their choices regarding their beliefs about why they feel an atrocity is needed, an exploration of what motivates people to do this, without hate or prejudice ( proviso: who probably aren't shown as martyrs ) would go down better, imo, than the one the OP has suggested, which, as presented, comes across as a rant. [Note: OP, your book may or may not do that. I'm talking about your posts]

For instance one of the previous jailed would be bombers came from an area I used to live in. That particular area was chock full of Muslim, Sikhs and Hindus. 99% of them were just people, nice, freindly, cross, grumpy, normal people who would be appalled at such violence. However groups of young men did get, um, stroppy about the West. Not violent, but passionate. Then again, if you went into the neighbouring area ( predominatly white) groups of young men would get more immediately stroppy by mugging you or, if they really liked you, setting fire to stuff ( man, three motorbikes I had fired. Three! Bastards).

Maybe just groups of young men get stroppy?

ETA: [ this part redacted cos I've just had the most awesome idea - and I'm going to write it]

[eyeblink]

It doesn't have to be the area. The man who set off nail bombs in Brick Lane (very Asian-dominated area of London) and the Admiral Duncan pub on Old Compton Street (centre of London's gay scene) and killed people as a result came from Cove, which is up the road from me and is as comfy a middle-class area as you can get.

I'm not sure about laws against inciting religious hatred, but the blasphemy law that's still on the UK statutes applies to Christianity only. Muslim groups tried using it against Rushdie and found out they couldn't.

As IRU says, it's very much incumbent on the author to get things right. There was a huge stink a few years ago over a TV broadcast of the play Jerry Springer The Opera, mostly from outraged Christians who wondered if an Islam version of the play would ever be broadcast. One answer is that JSTO is Christian satire, and you can only do satire if you have a deep knowledge of what you're satirising, which the authors did. Without that knowledge you're very likely to cross the line into being derogatory. And also, there's much less of a tradition of Muslim satire than there is of Christian satire, as Rushdie found out to his cost.

[motormind]

One answer is that JSTO is Christian satire, and you can only do satire if you have a deep knowledge of what you're satirising, which the authors did. Without that knowledge you're very likely to cross the line into being derogatory

I disagree. You can do satire about anything you find laughable. Merely reading the from Bible cover to cover already gives you more than enough material to satirize the hell out of it (no pun intended). The same holds true for the Koran or any other religious text out there. In my opinion, religious people should just grit their teeth. It's fine if they want to believe silly things, but they should realize that one man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

[Andrew]

I don't know about the USA, but in the UK I think writers are discouraged to write about Islam in novels, and they are sometimes even threatened and attacked, unless of course the writer wants to buy into the politically correct ploclomations that Islam is a religion of peace the writer is willing to make this clear in his/her writing.

My protagonist feels differently though. He feels its necessary to speak up and tell people about the 493 verses in the Koran that speak of Alla's hatred for non-believers and how we're all bound to eternal hell fire and how Muslims have a religious duty to spread their religion around the world using all means necessary (inclusing violence and murder).

My character feels its necessary to express his anger over Muslims saving their real outrage for times when a Western leader makes a public statement against veils and headscarves, or someone draws a Muhammad cartoon, whilst seem to caring little about the tens of thousands of people who lose their lives in the name of this religion each year.

My point is, are publishers and writers genereally afraid to publish this kind of stuff? I certainly think so.

I agree there seems to be reluctance here too--not sure if it is because producing anything that relates to the Al Qaeda training manuals (in my case) is viewed as a broad sweep of all of Islam (which it shouldn't be) and hence be too politcally hot or if it has been overdone. There are many non-fiction books that explores the various tenants of the Islamic belief system.
In any event, if the story is treated well, it should work. One cannot and should not paint a whole faith too narrowly though as that would be very unfair. Just my opinion--not saying you have because after all, I have not read your work.

[LuckyH]

So in the end, the fundamentalists are winning and taking over the world after all, as we're being dictated to as what we can write or read by them. How come people who wrote about the IRA or Basque Separatists never needed police protection and agents/publishers weren't afraid of the novels?

The lunatics are taking over the asylum and we're cowardly letting them.

The point here is that the IRA and Basques go to the same churches as the people they are in conflict with, they’re Christians, a vastly different religion to that of Islam.

[motormind]

The point here is that the IRA and Basques go to the same churches as the people they are in conflict with, they’re Christians, a vastly different religion to that of Islam.

And this should matter... just why exactly?

[The Lonely One]

.

[AW Admin]

In my opinion, religious people should just grit their teeth. It's fine if they want to believe silly things, but they should realize that one man's theology is another man's belly laugh.

That may be your opinion, but it's not the way AW rolls.

Word to the wise. And others.

[Libbie]

I'm a ravening atheist, and even I think this thread has become a colossal trainwreck.

http://goingconcern.com/2009/08/31/trainwreck.jpg

HEY-YO!

[Slushie]

The point here is that the IRA and Basques go to the same churches as the people they are in conflict with, they’re Christians, a vastly different religion to that of Islam.

Before I unsubscribe from this thread, I do have to point out that Islam and Christianity are *not* vastly different religions. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all very similar, which makes the conflict between the three that much more retarded.

Also, rep point to anybody who names where this quote came from (and no cheating! This quotes an easy one):

"There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. Every minority, be it Baptist/Unitarian, Irish/Italian/Octogenarian/Zen Buddhist, Zionist/Seventh-day Adventist, Women's Lib/Republican, Mattachine/FourSquareGospel feels it has the will, the right, the duty to douse the kerosene, light the fuse. Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme."

[The Lonely One]

Before I unsubscribe from this thread, I do have to point out that Islam and Christianity are *not* vastly different religions. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all very similar, which makes the conflict between the three that much more retarded.

Also, rep point to anybody who names where this quote came from (and no cheating! This quotes an easy one):

"There is more than one way to burn a book. And the world is full of people running about with lit matches. Every minority, be it Baptist/Unitarian, Irish/Italian/Octogenarian/Zen Buddhist, Zionist/Seventh-day Adventist, Women's Lib/Republican, Mattachine/FourSquareGospel feels it has the will, the right, the duty to douse the kerosene, light the fuse. Every dimwit editor who sees himself as the source of all dreary blanc-mange plain porridge unleavened literature, licks his guillotine and eyes the neck of any author who dares to speak above a whisper or write above a nursery rhyme."

That sounds extremely familiar. It sounds like a Bradbury quote so I'll take that as my guess.

[Wayne K]

I think the question warrants a derail to a small degree. Publishers are subject to things--religion not being the only one--that make them more or less likely to publish certain material.

[Slushie]

That sounds extremely familiar. It sounds like a Bradbury quote so I'll take that as my guess.

+1 for you, sir

[Wayne K]

I cheated, so I didn't answer. Love Ray Bradbury. He's my library hero.

[motormind]

That may be your opinion, but it's not the way AW rolls.

Meaning?

[Cyia]

Meaning?

Not exactly difficult to figure out.

Respect your fellow author and don't equate ANYONE's belief system to a stand up routine.


(As for the quote... is that a serious question? Bradbury... burning books... Farenheit 451, people. It's from the intro.)

[MacAllister]

What Cyia said, motormind. It's not hard to comprehend.

And with that, we're done here.