Paying v. non-paying markets?

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The Lonely One

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Does it matter to you? Are you living off short story payments (or shorts and other writing combined)? Or do you write short fiction for pub credits?

I've been accepted to two different non-paying markets thus far, though I wonder, should I be approaching paying markets? I still consider my writing a profession, despite thus far not making any money off of fiction.

How important is it to you to be payed for your work? Was there a point where you decided you had enough credits and would publish only in paying publications?

Jus' curious.
 

Robert E. Keller

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I've "sold" to some non-paying markets early on. I also placed a story recently in a non-paying market because I wanted it published quickly as an introduction to a series. In those cases, I still intend to make money off those stories through reprints, and I don't regret my decisions at all.

But here's my advice: If you're confident in your skills, go with the paying markets. It definitely matters. The reason why is that it takes a lot more skill (typically) to make a paid sale than a non-paid sale. For example, if a magazine even has to make a token payment of $5.00, that can add up over the weeks and months. This will probably cause the editor to be much more selective in what he accepts. Otherwise, he's just sticking stories on a website and the only consideration is how much space they take up. I'm not suggesting all non-paying magazines take on anything (there are some good quality ones), but I do think overall pay rate determines how selective the editor is.

It's your call. You can send your stories anywhere you want. They're your stories. But if you want to advance your career a bit, you'll need to make a little cash eventually and show that you can hang with the big boys and girls.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Of cours eit matters. Money aside, why sell yourself or your stories short? If you start at the top, submit to the highest paying markets first and work your way down the list, the best magazine that likes your story will publish it.

But if you start at the bottom and work your way up, the worst magazine that wants your story will publish it.

As for credits, with a very few exceptions, non-paying markets are seldom any good as credits. If you want credits that matter, you need to sell to the best magazines possible. Tht's what your competition is doing.
 

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I start at the top and work my way down, usually. Though, for certain stories i start in the middle and work my way around (either up or down depending on my mood and the reception the story gets).

Of course, just because a market pays better doesn't mean it is better than a lower-paying one. In the spec-fic market there are some token to semi-pro paying mags that are just as sought after--and just as hard to get into--as the pro mags. Getting credits at those places can also help give you a leg-up to break into the big boys.

ETA: as of yet, i have never subbed to a non-paying market
 

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It can take a writer some time to get the hang of how best to market his work. For a while, I sent stories wherever I felt they'd fit in good, including pro markets and non-paying markets. Currently, the bulk of my submissions are at pro-paying magazines. I've learned to adopt the top-down strategy, and I agree that it's sound. I've had some great feedback, close calls--according to the editors--and personal invitations for more stories, so I think it's possible even for a writer like me (contaminated as I am by non-paying credits :)) to perhaps persuade an editor or two to pick something up.
 

astonwest

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But here's my advice: If you're confident in your skills, go with the paying markets. It definitely matters. The reason why is that it takes a lot more skill (typically) to make a paid sale than a non-paid sale. For example, if a magazine even has to make a token payment of $5.00, that can add up over the weeks and months. This will probably cause the editor to be much more selective in what he accepts. Otherwise, he's just sticking stories on a website and the only consideration is how much space they take up. I'm not suggesting all non-paying magazines take on anything (there are some good quality ones), but I do think overall pay rate determines how selective the editor is.
This is the main reason I don't submit to non-paying magazines.

I do have to say that I tend to concentrate my submissions toward magazines which accepted my work in the past. I will occasionally go back and sub stories to the higher-tier markets, but if the stories are written fairly similarly to those which I had rejected in the past, I don't bother.
 

Robert E. Keller

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This is the main reason I don't submit to non-paying magazines.

I do have to say that I tend to concentrate my submissions toward magazines which accepted my work in the past. I will occasionally go back and sub stories to the higher-tier markets, but if the stories are written fairly similarly to those which I had rejected in the past, I don't bother.

Exactly. There are some stories I just don't have a pro market for (mostly the high fantasy or sword and sorcery stuff--written in a certain style). Am I going to start at the top when I know I'll just be adding useless slush to the editor's slush pile? Nope. I'd rather do both of us a favor and not bother.
 

Skye Jules

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A non-paying market doesn't necessarily lack quality. In fact, the market that my short story is coming out in doesn't pay, but most of its authors are made up of people who have gotten paid for their short stories and who have won awards for them (it's The Oddville Press. Just read author bios, and that'll tell you the kind of work the e-zine prints.)

Now, once the copyright is up, I do plan on submitting it to another market, one that pays. But a nonpaying market gives you somewhere to start, especially because the markets that pay have such a high rejection rate. I do start at the top and work my way down, but just because a magazine doesn't pay doesn't mean it's any less than a magazine that does pay. In fact, there are some nonpaying magazines who would like to pay their writers, but they currently can't. The Oddville Press is one of those e-zines that would like to but currently can't.

In fact, a magazine called Redivider doesn't pay at all, but it's acceptance rate is 1.3%, and it's labeled as a Top 25 Most Challenging Market. Another magazine called Everyday Weirdness has an acceptance rate of 46.9%, and it pays, and it's labeled as Top 25 Most Approachable Market. This alone should tell you that just because a magazine doesn't pay means nothing. (These numbers came from Duotrope's Digest.)

All in all, I believe it's how reputable the magazine is that matters in the long run.
 
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Robert E. Keller

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A non-paying market doesn't necessarily lack quality. In fact, the market that my short story is coming out in doesn't pay, but most of its authors are made up of people who have gotten paid for their short stories and who have won awards for them (it's The Oddville Press. Just read author bios, and that'll tell you the kind of work the e-zine prints.)

Now, once the copyright is up, I do plan on submitting it to another market, one that pays. But a nonpaying market gives you somewhere to start, especially because the markets that pay have such a high rejection rate. I do start at the top and work my way down, but just because a magazine doesn't pay doesn't mean it's any less than a magazine that does pay. In fact, there are some nonpaying magazines who would like to pay their writers, but they currently can't. The Oddville Press is one of those e-zines that would like to but currently can't.

In fact, a magazine called Redivider doesn't pay at all, but it's acceptance rate is 1.3%, and it's labeled as a Top 25 Most Challenging Market. Another magazine called Everyday Weirdness has an acceptance rate of 46.9%, and it pays, and it's labeled as Top 25 Most Approachable Market. This alone should tell you that just because a magazine doesn't pay means nothing. (These numbers came from Duotrope's Digest.)

All in all, I believe it's how reputable the magazine is that matters in the long run.

I spend too much time at the computer. Anyway, I have nothing against non-paying markets (after all, I have stories in them). There are a few I really like. But you have to take several factors into account when judging markets. Everyday Weirdness (in which I have published a couple of stories as well) publishes a new story every day! Thus, they publish roughly 30 stories a month. Naturally, the acceptance rate is going to be higher for that magazine. And when you're submitting to paying markets, you're competing against better writers (skilled writers often go where the money is), so even though a paying and non-paying magazine may have the same acceptance rate, it's really not the same for all writers. For some, it will be much harder to actually make a paid sale due to the fact that their work is now being judged against better competition.
 

Robert E. Keller

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But to add to my other posts, I'm talking about paying markets here. ANY paying markets. It's important to understand that the only difference between the writer who sells repeatedly to professional markets, or the writer who wins literary awards, or the writer who sells repeatedly to token-paying markets (these days) is style and genre--not skill level. For example, there are some excellent horror writers out there with very few professional markets to work with, and so they may have few professional credits, if any. Same goes for writers of high fantasy, sword and sorcery, or space opera.

I realize that appears to contradict my statement that pay rate determines skill level. But it in fact does not. To clarify: A higher pay rate often attracts better writers, but some writers don't have much of a professional market for their style or genre of fiction. These writers submit to token-paying markets (making the competition among those markets that much more difficult). See, no contradiction. Cool beans, huh?
 
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Jamesaritchie

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In fact, a magazine called Redivider doesn't pay at all, but it's acceptance rate is 1.3%, and it's labeled as a Top 25 Most Challenging Market. Another magazine called Everyday Weirdness has an acceptance rate of 46.9%, and it pays, and it's labeled as Top 25 Most Approachable Market. This alone should tell you that just because a magazine doesn't pay means nothing. (These numbers came from Duotrope's Digest.)

All in all, I believe it's how reputable the magazine is that matters in the long run.

Rediver is a reason not to submit to a low or no paying market. If it's just as challenging to get in a small market as a large one, then why on earth submit to the small one?

As for "Most Aproachable," that's usually a bad thing. A magazine with a fifty percent acceptance rate is simply not getting very many submissions, and this means most of the stories they buy are not going to be high quality.

Other problems with almost all no paying markets.

1. You can easily, and I mean easily, get in mind set of writing stories only these markets will accept. Every story you write will, consciously or not, be written for the no pays because that's where you've had "success." You do the same thing over and over.

2. If you want to write for the big markets, you have to be trying to write for the big markets. I don't believe talent and craft rise any higher than they need to be, and they need to be extremely high to sell routinely to the big markets. Not so much for the tiny markets.

3. Right or wrong, I know many editors at the big markets believe in this mind set, and when they see a writer publishing too often in the tiny markets, but never in the large, they come to believe that writer is only good for those small markets, and submissions from these writers don't quite receive the attention they should get.
 

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I've been accepted to two different non-paying markets thus far, though I wonder, should I be approaching paying markets? I still consider my writing a profession, despite thus far not making any money off of fiction.

You'll never make money from fiction if you only submit to non-paying markets. I can't see a reason to avoid paying markets, unless you're writing in a genre where none of the magazines pay.

The worst they're going to say is no... and if they say yes, you get a nice writing credit and money.
 

The Lonely One

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Thanks everyone. I'm not avoiding paying markets, per say--I would say my approach is rather random on duotrope. I click through my genre (paying and non-paying) and find one that seems they might be a fit. The problem is it seems more markets are non-paying than paying, so perhaps I should narrow my search. My mindset was "published is published. People are reading my stuff."

But I know I should also be concerned with shaping my career. This has been very informative. Thanks.
 

Robert E. Keller

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3. Right or wrong, I know many editors at the big markets believe in this mind set, and when they see a writer publishing too often in the tiny markets, but never in the large, they come to believe that writer is only good for those small markets, and submissions from these writers don't quite receive the attention they should get.

If any editors aren't buying the best fiction they receive because a writer is published in too many small presses, well, then maybe a lot of new talent isn't getting through. If that's the case, it's a shame. But I certainly wouldn't let it stop me from selling to small presses or submitting my best fiction to the largest ones.

Sorry for the edits, but my post got a bit off topic (clearing throat).
 
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Shadow_Ferret

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I might add that if you are looking at paying markets (as you should be) make sure they are "Pay on Acceptance." That way you get the money immediately. If you go to "Pay on Publication" you might NEVER see your money if, for instance, they go out of business before publishing your story.
 

Jamesaritchie

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If any editors aren't buying the best fiction they receive because a writer is published in too many small presses, well, then maybe a lot of new talent isn't getting through. If that's the case, it's a shame. But I certainly wouldn't let it stop me from selling to small presses or submitting my best fiction to the largest ones.

Sorry for the edits, but my post got a bit off topic (clearing throat).

Well, the thing is, they usually aren't getting the best fiction from these writers. It is easy to get in the mind set of writing for small magazines, and when this happens, these writers won't be writing fiction that is right for the big ones.

I've been an editor, and writers tend to write stories indentical to other stories that have been successful for them. To sell to the big magazines you can't be as good and as original as, oh, Mike Resnick, the particular story that breaks in usually has to be just a touch better and a touch more original than Mike Resnick.

It's real tough to do this once the tiny magazine mind set style stories start being successful. It can be done, of course, but it's really, really tough.

And I think it's just human nature to lose a bit of interest, a bit of attention, a bit of expectation, when story after story comes in from a writer that just isn't quite good enough, quite original enough.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I might add that if you are looking at paying markets (as you should be) make sure they are "Pay on Acceptance." That way you get the money immediately. If you go to "Pay on Publication" you might NEVER see your money if, for instance, they go out of business before publishing your story.

I try to avoid pay on pub mags, but they're better than no pay, and some have been around for many decades. I think you have to separate the upstart pay on pubs from the long established and reliable ones.

For some reason I don't understand, many state owned magazines I've sold to have been pay on pub, but being state owned, they're usually long time magazines, well-established magazines, publish on a reliable schedule, and pay fairly well.

But, yeah, I always go through the pay on acceptance magazines first, and I'm highly selective about the pay on pubs I'm willing to show a story.
 

Robert E. Keller

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Well, the thing is, they usually aren't getting the best fiction from these writers. It is easy to get in the mind set of writing for small magazines, and when this happens, these writers won't be writing fiction that is right for the big ones.

I've been an editor, and writers tend to write stories indentical to other stories that have been successful for them. To sell to the big magazines you can't be as good and as original as, oh, Mike Resnick, the particular story that breaks in usually has to be just a touch better and a touch more original than Mike Resnick.

It's real tough to do this once the tiny magazine mind set style stories start being successful. It can be done, of course, but it's really, really tough.

And I think it's just human nature to lose a bit of interest, a bit of attention, a bit of expectation, when story after story comes in from a writer that just isn't quite good enough, quite original enough.

I don't disagree with you on any of that. However, that doesn't apply to me. I don't write stories that way. I don't usually write a new story based on an old one or one that was successful. I like to break new ground when I craft short fiction--otherwise I'm bored. Novels? Yes, I would stick with a winning formula, but I would still try to make each book better than the last. But short stories give me the freedom to keep striving for originality, since a piece of short fiction doesn't make a career.

Also, my goal is to publish my stories. If an editor at a big magazine doesn't want a story, I'll publish it in a smaller one. I don't write short fiction for money first and foremost, so my goal is not to conform to what the editor of Analog is buying, for example (or to your thinking--conform, but be just a bit better). I write it for enjoyment, challenge, and to build my reputation. My goal is always to write a better story than the last one, to enhance my skills as far as I can--and ultimately, to entertain someone with the finished product. Ultimately, I want to be the best storyteller I can be. Aside from judging where a story might be a good fit, and reading a magazine beforehand, that's as far as I care to go. I could never write one of my stories in a similar fashion to another writer (but slightly better) just to get my foot in the door and earn 200 bucks. I write the best fiction I can, and I don't give a jolly rat's arse what other writers are writing. If an editor wants my story enough, he'll buy it.
 

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I don't understand. If you send a story to a pro paying mag, how are they going to know if you send your story in to a bunch of different token pubs? It's not like they all hang out and play cards every friday, right?

Wouldn't they only know what you put down on the cover page? Because a writer could always say, "John Smith has published numerous short stories for various magazines etc..." And also, the fact that pro paying mags are SO few in numbers, makes a horror/fantasy writer almost forced to submit to the semi-pro/token mags.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I don't disagree with you on any of that. However, that doesn't apply to me. I don't write stories that way. I don't usually write a new story based on an old one or one that was successful. I like to break new ground when I craft short fiction--otherwise I'm bored. Novels? Yes, I would stick with a winning formula, but I would still try to make each book better than the last. But short stories give me the freedom to keep striving for originality, since a piece of short fiction doesn't make a career.

Also, my goal is to publish my stories. If an editor at a big magazine doesn't want a story, I'll publish it in a smaller one. I don't write short fiction for money first and foremost, so my goal is not to conform to what the editor of Analog is buying, for example (or to your thinking--conform, but be just a bit better). I write it for enjoyment, challenge, and to build my reputation. My goal is always to write a better story than the last one, to enhance my skills as far as I can--and ultimately, to entertain someone with the finished product. Ultimately, I want to be the best storyteller I can be. Aside from judging where a story might be a good fit, and reading a magazine beforehand, that's as far as I care to go. I could never write one of my stories in a similar fashion to another writer (but slightly better) just to get my foot in the door and earn 200 bucks. I write the best fiction I can, and I don't give a jolly rat's arse what other writers are writing. If an editor wants my story enough, he'll buy it.

Well, it has nothing to do with conformity. Quite the opposite. I've repeatedly said not to conform, not to write strictly to guidelines. Conformity gets you nowhere fast. I didn't say you should write anything like Mike Resnick writes, I said you had to be better and more original than Mike Resnick. I don't care what your goals or aspirations are, or what size magazine you happen to be writing for, you still have to be better and more original than the other writers who submit to that magazine. But teh bigger teh magazine, the tougher it is to do this.

Like it or not, some stories are simply better than others, some styles work better with readers than others, and nearly all the cream gets skimmed by the big magazines before the small magazines even see it.

The "formula" for any big magazine is to be better, and to be more original, never to be like any other writer.

Breaking new ground is a fine thing, but changing content does not break new ground, nor does writing a story in a different way. If you really are breaking new ground, and if you have any ability to write at all well, to tell a good story and fill it with good characters, the big magazines will eat your stories for breakfast.

Striving for originality is also good, and exactly what big magazines want you to do. But quite often, as the Dutch Uncle once told a writer, "Your writing is both good and original, but what is good is not original, and what is original is not good."

Nor did I say anything about writing these stories for money. Money has nothing to do with it, except that the more money a magazine pays, the higher the level of competition you face getting into that magazine, and the better, and more original, you have to be.

But a single piece of good short fiction absolutely can make a career, and many an SF novelist made his career by writing a breakthrough short story that later became a breakthrough, award-winning novel. Orson Scott Card's "Ender's Game" is a prime example, but there are many others.

I still think guidelines get misread consistently. Guidelines are nealry always more about what an editor doesn't want than about what he does want. Yes, Analog wants hard science fiction, but that's like saying a fisherman wants to catch a fish. It's true, but it doesn't begin to tell more than a tiny part of the story. Does he want a farm pond catfish, a farm pond bluegill, a river cat, a pike, a sailfish, or any one of a thousand other species? Is he going to catch it with a fly, a spinner, or a worm?
On and on.

Any editor knows what he doesn't want, and guidelines usually spell this out. But what an editor does want, particular the editor of a big magazine, is the story he never imagined, the new take on an old theme that catches him by surprise, the insight into humanity that never occurred to him, all wrapped up in writing so good that it would make a grocery list publishable, and with characters who step off the page, sit down on the edge of his desk, and tell him the tale personally.

Writing to fit a large magazine never means writing the same kind of story that magazine has already published, or imitating writers who are already big names in the field. But most of the fiction in very low pay and no pay magazines does exactly this. There's a sameness to it. So much so that a vampire story often reads just like a hard SF story, reads just like a fantasy story about elves. Only the names of the characters and the type of obstacle changes. But truly innovative theme, and fresh, revealing, newly thought or better expressed insight into the human condition, which is what originality is really all about, are noticeably lacking.

But I gues when you really get down to it, the most original thing in the world is a good story, well-told.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I don't understand. If you send a story to a pro paying mag, how are they going to know if you send your story in to a bunch of different token pubs? It's not like they all hang out and play cards every friday, right?

Wouldn't they only know what you put down on the cover page? Because a writer could always say, "John Smith has published numerous short stories for various magazines etc..." And also, the fact that pro paying mags are SO few in numbers, makes a horror/fantasy writer almost forced to submit to the semi-pro/token mags.

Actually, you'd be surprised at how many editors get together for poker. But this aside, editors in any field generally know each other in one way or another. A fair number really do play cards on a regular basis, others chat through e-mail, meet at conventions, workshops, etc.

And all of them read voraciously within the field, so they all know who gets published, and where.

But it isn't about submitting to low-pay or no-pay magazines. Editors assume all writers do this with stories the big magazines reject. It isn't even about being published in low-pay, no-pay magazines. Even big name writers sell stories to these magazines when large magazines reject them.

It's about being consistently published in low-pay, no-pay magazines without ever making the grade at the large magazines. When a writer has been writing for several years, and has managed to sell ten of fifteen or twenty stories to low-pay, no-pay magazines, but hasn't made the grade at a single large magazine, it's very easy to categorize that writer has one who has a talent and craft level meant for publishing such stories at such a level.

Occasionally, a writer can and does break out of this categorization, but it is rare, and most writers who land there, stay there.
 

The Lonely One

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Hmm. Very interesting (how would I get this insight without you guys? A million thanks).

So I will go forth and try harder to break paying markets. Thanks ya, peoples.

And feel free to keep talking. I'm learning a bunch.
 

Robert E. Keller

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Breaking new ground is a fine thing, but changing content does not break new ground, nor does writing a story in a different way. If you really are breaking new ground, and if you have any ability to write at all well, to tell a good story and fill it with good characters, the big magazines will eat your stories for breakfast.

I agree with much of what you said. As to the above quote, I hope you're right about that. I would love to see bigger magazines eat my stories for breakfast. Time will tell, I suppose. I will say that I keep my best writing bouncing around the pro markets and only move it lower when I'm forced to. So actually, my best stories (in my opinion, since opinion is what this is all about) are not yet sold.

I believe changing content is a path to breaking new ground. Not necessarily changing genres, but, for example, writing two stories in the same genre much differently. I like to experiment with short fiction and see what gives. I feel I'm more likely to break new ground that way. However, again, it's a matter of opinion. I've read stories that have won awards that I think are crap. Why? Because they don't entertain me on any level. "Breaking new ground" can simply mean a new style of entertaining the reader. Idea wise, a story might read like a thousand other ones, but the originality stems from the way it's presented. A blindly opinionated writer (not saying you are that) may look at only the core idea, or the genre, and miss the real beauty of the piece. It takes a lot of skill and knowledge to appreciate the difference. But that, again, is just my opinion for others to take or leave.
 
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