Getting the basics wrong.

Rose English · Oct 15, 2009

Not sure if I should post this under Grammar and Syntax, but I guess it'll be moved if I've got it wrong.

I have a problem. Unless I write ridiculously slowly, I struggle to write a sentence in an order which makes sense.

It makes sense to me, because I know what I was thinking about. (I'm absolutely not defending it, I need to change somehow).

However my sentences often lack the conventions of order, clarity, and completeness. I have Strunk & White, and I spend too much time on this board; so I know all of these things are going to be obstacles for a reader.

I also think I incorrectly assume the reader will make bridging and elaborative inferences. They don't, and it's confusing, which boils down to me not being clear again.

Everything I compose comes out backwards or jumbled. Illogical. Un-flowing, to avoid using the word 'clunky'. Or incomplete thoughts. Unless I restrict myself to short sentences, as I am trying to do here, but then I sound choppy.

I don't mind re-writing, although of course everything needs to be transposed. I'm just wondering how much of a problem I have. Is it inexperience? Lack of planning? Just really bad writing? Something else?

Be gentle please...

Dawnstorm · Oct 15, 2009

Rose English said:
I don't mind re-writing, although of course everything needs to be transposed. I'm just wondering how much of a problem I have. Is it inexperience? Lack of planning? Just really bad writing? Something else?

I have two problems answering your question:

1. I don't know you.
2. I don't know your texts.

Why this is a problem: people work differently. Your optimal writing-method may well be akin to creating swamps and go there to landscape. Why not? That could work.

Generally, if you make a certain editing change often enough, you'll become aware of it when writing and auto-correct, until you have a habit. This could be a good thing (more efficient writing, with less editing necessary later on), and a bad thing (automated writing, with less of a chance to vary your writing) - and probably will be both.

I say, it's good that you're aware of the problem, but it's bad to worry about it too much. A question: how do you fare when editing? Any specific problems?

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 15, 2009

Could you give a sample? I'm having trouble grasping the idea that someone wouldn't write a sentence grammatically correct. I mean your post is fine, unless you heavily edited it after writing it.

Rose English · Oct 15, 2009

Shadow_Ferret said:
Could you give a sample? I'm having trouble grasping the idea that someone wouldn't write a sentence grammatically correct. I mean your post is fine, unless you heavily edited it after writing it.

Dawnstorm and Shadowferret, that post took me about an hour to write, with lots of re-wording and cut and pasting. As do all of my posts. This is why it's a problem, although I take your point that it might just be my way of working. It's a very inefficient one though.

There you go, I mean all my posts take a lot of re-wording and cut and pasting; not that they all take an hour.

Typical example right there! The confusion gets worse the faster I work.

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 15, 2009

Hmm. Then the only suggestion I have is for you to write incredibly slow or expect to do a lot of heavy editing afterwards. Not trying to be funny, but I don't know how a problem like that can be corrected. Sounds almost like dyslexia or something, like its somehow ingrained into you.

I mean, I never think about sentence structure, it just flows naturally.

Rose English · Oct 15, 2009

Shadow_Ferret said:
Not trying to be funny, but I don't know how a problem like that can be corrected. Sounds almost like dyslexia or something, like its somehow ingrained into you.

I mean, I never think about sentence structure, it just flows naturally.

Not at all Shadow, this is exactly what I am wondering, and hoping for views on.

It does feel ingrained, and I do have to think really carefully about sentence structure and the logical order of events. Perhaps a little bit of me is hoping someone has a magic wand

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 15, 2009

Rose English said:
Perhaps a little bit of me is hoping someone has a magic wand

We all wish that.

DeleyanLee · Oct 15, 2009

Rose English said:
Dawnstorm and Shadowferret, that post took me about an hour to write, with lots of re-wording and cut and pasting. As do all of my posts. This is why it's a problem, although I take your point that it might just be my way of working. It's a very inefficient one though.

Not meaning to be cruel or flippant, but there's never a guaranteed efficient way to do anything. Especially not when creativity is involved.

Your mind works a certain way because of more factors than I think Man can understand. There are some things you can do to train how you do things (like memorizing grammar and sentence structure) until they become unconscious, but there's a limit on that for any individual.

You've identified the problem, so the next step would be to identify some of the steps to make it better. Strunk & White is wonderful, but it doesn't work for everyone (doesn't work for me--they make my eyes glaze over), so I'd suggest looking at different books about grammar. Maybe start with something more basic like Eats, Shoots and Leaves or The Transative Vampire which is more like reading than rote. With this step, you can figure out what you do know, what you do well and don't have to focus so much on. If nothing else, you can see what's striking you as easy and start with that.

The fact that you CAN do the work of writing, even if it's time-consuming and tedious, says a lot in your favor. Just start from where you are, pick a direction and get going. Writing is an eternal learning curve and everyone starts at different spots.

Best of luck getting 'round your learning curve.

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 15, 2009

DeleyanLee said:
Maybe start with something more basic like Eats, Shoots and Leaves or The Transative Vampire which is more like reading than rote.

I found the Transative Vampire to be totally unhelpful to me. I came away MORE confused after attempting to read that then I did when I started. My eyes glazed over probably in the same way Struck and White did for you.

My favorite grammar study book is English 2600: A Programmed Course in Grammar and Usage. by Joseph C. Blumenthal. It starts with the sentence "Birds fly." and breaks it down into subject and predicate and then goes on from there. Even now I still find it helpful to go through it every now and again.

TheIT · Oct 15, 2009

Perhaps try switching from visual to auditory. Try reading what you've written aloud, or try saying what you're trying to convey before writing it down. Collect your thoughts before trying to commit them to paper.

One of the best things I ever learned in English classes was to read as a reader. After you've written something, try reading it from the perspective of someone who has never seen those words before. If necessary, set it aside for a while then come back to it. It's a good way to figure out what's missing.

folkchick · Oct 15, 2009

I agree with reading the text out loud, this helps me a lot. I am slightly dyslexic, and also very, very self critical and will torture myself over things that probably are just fine.

However, it's certainly not a bad thing to re-edit. You'll find yourself becoming more confident every time.

Also, I am using a book with grammar tests and have learned a lot. Never be afraid to learn!

veinglory · Oct 15, 2009

I would suggest going very slowly, using the tips provided here, and getting it right. With time you will be able to speed things up.

mommyjo2 · Oct 15, 2009

Reading out loud helps me a lot, too.

That said, it could be that your creative style is to throw everything out there, then make it "pretty" after. In scriptwriting, there is a tool called a "scriptment", which is document encompassing half-way thought out ideas, snips of dialogue, broad strokes, a great description, etc. which is then distilled into the final product, a script.

Everyone's creative process varies, and there's no right or wrong way to do it.

Here's a visual example of what I mean - the artist literally throws dirt onto a screen and then takes that random pile and makes a beautiful narrative:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=518XP8prwZo

Matera the Mad · Oct 15, 2009

Nobody has to write at a certain speed. As long as you get there, you're doing great. I do a lot of post rearranging too. Even more story rearranging.

Priene · Oct 16, 2009

You should consult a professional. It sounds like it might be dyslexia. If it turns out to be so, they'll have guidance on ways to improve your writing.

Rose English · Oct 16, 2009

DeleyanLee said:
Your mind works a certain way because of more factors than I think Man can understand. There are some things you can do to train how you do things (like memorizing grammar and sentence structure) until they become unconscious, but there's a limit on that for any individual.

I'll be the first to admit I'm still learning the rules of grammar and how to apply them. Thank you for your encouragement.

Shadow_Ferret said:
My favorite grammar study book is English 2600: A Programmed Course in Grammar and Usage. by Joseph C. Blumenthal. It starts with the sentence "Birds fly." and breaks it down into subject and predicate and then goes on from there. Even now I still find it helpful to go through it every now and again.

I haven't come across this book, I'll seek it out. I also noticed Maestrowork's thread in Basic Writing on subject and predicate. Timely.

TheIT said:
Collect your thoughts before trying to commit them to paper.

I have to put my thoughts on paper to pull them apart and know what they are!

folkchick said:
I agree with reading the text out loud, this helps me a lot. I am slightly dyslexic, and also very, very self critical and will torture myself over things that probably are just fine.

Yes, reading out loud helps me hear that the structure is not right. I can also see it, see that it looks wrong. I'm very concerned with not making mistakes, which inhibits my writing, but I wouldn't say I torture myself

veinglory said:
I would suggest going very slowly, using the tips provided here, and getting it right. With time you will be able to speed things up.

I do hope this is the case!

mommyjo2 said:
That said, it could be that your creative style is to throw everything out there, then make it "pretty" after. In scriptwriting, there is a tool called a "scriptment", which is document encompassing half-way thought out ideas, snips of dialogue, broad strokes, a great description, etc. which is then distilled into the final product, a script.

Everyone's creative process varies, and there's no right or wrong way to do it.

If this is what my problem turns out to be I shall be happy!

Matera the Mad said:
Nobody has to write at a certain speed. As long as you get there, you're doing great. I do a lot of post rearranging too. Even more story rearranging.

Thank you. I do suspect, as DeleyanLee and you seem to suggest, the re-arrangement is just something all writers do to a greater or lesser degree. But on a continuum it seems I'm at the extreme.

Priene said:
You should consult a professional. It sounds like it might be dyslexia. If it turns out to be so, they'll have guidance on ways to improve your writing.

I have a hunch that there is something 'not quite right'. It might be minor. I do respect your opinion, and I think I will follow this up, for peace of mind if nothing else.

Thank you to everyone above.

TheIT · Oct 16, 2009

Rose English said:
I have to put my thoughts on paper to pull them apart and know what they are!

Good point.

Sometimes before I write a piece, I'll write out a quick checklist describing what I want to accomplish. After I write it I can go back and make sure I've hit all the points I want to address.

Rose English · Oct 16, 2009

Just a FYI if anyone's interested.

Yikes, quick bit of research and it costs a fortune for a comprehensive diagnostic dyslexia assessment.

I found a Dyslexia Screening assessment through The British Dyslexia Association that I bought and did on-line though. The screener states my results are borderline.

I'll still write while I think what to do next

.

TheIT · Oct 16, 2009

Rose English said:
I'll still write while I think what to do next .

Good attitude. Something being difficult doesn't make it not worth doing.

Good luck!

Jaedence · Oct 19, 2009

I disagree with some of the advice here. I have a friend who is a terrific writer but he'll never be a published author because of how slow he writes, constantly revising and correcting.

You have to let your mind flow and let it all out and then go back and fix it. If you're constantly correcting and editing, you're not flowing. Your brain never gets into that groove.

Do free writing for a while and write with abandon and try and write as many pages in an hour as you can.

Constantly correcting and going slow will never solve your problem.

Priene · Oct 19, 2009

Incidentally, if the problem lies specifically in putting sentences to paper, have you tried voice recognition software?

Bluegate · Oct 19, 2009

Ok, I'll be the odd duck here. Is there a chance of Post Traumatic Stress? I won't drag everyone into the details but PTS can interfere with the language process and definitely make writing coherently nearly impossible.

Getting the basics wrong.

Rose English

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

Rose English

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

Rose English

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

folkchick

Not a new kid

veinglory

volitare nequeo

mommyjo2

Bad grammar make me [sic]

Matera the Mad

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Priene

Out to lunch

Rose English

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

Rose English

TheIT

Infuriatingly Theoretical

Jaedence

Priene

Out to lunch

Bluegate

Clearly has too much time on hand.