To do or not to do?

cooeedownunder · Oct 13, 2009

I have just about finished a WIP draft of 130,000 (which certainly needs to be rewritten, edited, stuff cut ect before I will be anywhere near submitting but it also gives me lots to play with )- And although I sort of fell into the story for various reason, and had started it as a historical it is clearly more of a romance.

I am aware of the romance genre in the sense of when the hero is expected to arrive - page 1, certainly no longer than chapter 3, the story of one man and one woman and whatever.

My issue is, I certainly never wrote the story aimed for a particular market, especially the romance market - It's one woman's story - and it doesn't involve only one man, until we move on, and end up with the fellow she meets in the first chapter. The story spans 9 years - Set between England and Australia in the early 1800s

I know at the end of the day no one can really answer this, but maybe someone has some suggestion? - I am wondering if I should now look at the market and change and adapt the story to fit more closely into the more well know romance publishing titles and categories. Although not written for the erotica market it certain contains writing intended to arouse. (wether it does that or not is still in question LOL)

I have recently had the first few chapters read by hardcore romance readers and writers - and after the hero was introduced they said, well where is he - why haven't we seen him by chatper 4 again, ah, is this fellow the hero, or is it him, - the plot of the story currently written can't allow them to meet again for a bit, that said, plots can most certainly be changed.

I am most certainly no Daniel Steel, although I read many of her books years ago and enjoyed them, but I have heard that her books are not necessarily considered romances in the sense of how the genre is precieved, which suprised me. But I guess I am trying to ask, is there such a market for non-traditional romances that is a mixture of genres. The story also involves a mystery, so maybe I've eaten too much cake. LOL

I personally love the story as it is, but don't we all - and I am wondering if the romance market is even the place I should be considering pursuing as it clearly appears to need to be rewritten in a particular format to be acceptable.

Suggestions?

Misa Buckley · Oct 13, 2009

FWIW, life doesn't go like that. People come into our lives and out again. Things get complicated.

There is a difference between a traditional romance (like Mills & Boon) that I would read once, and something more complex that I would probably read more often. Then again, I'm not a fan of the romance genre on its own - I like stories that are complicated and have sub-plots.

In short, a Mills & Boon type is like a McDonalds whilst your novel sounds like a three-course meal and I know which I'd find more satisfying

*RomanceWriter* · Oct 13, 2009

I think Danielle Steel's books are labelled 'women's fiction' and not romance. There are a lot more agents/pubs accepting women's fiction, than genre romance. So, you probably have more opportunities with your work as is.

Irysangel · Oct 13, 2009

Yes, definitely sounds like women's fiction or historical saga moreso than a typical single-title (there are romances other than Mills & Boon/Harlequin).

Check out Sara Donati's Wilderness series. Not a romance. Hers is a historical family saga. There's a few others but they're escaping me at the moment.

Irysangel · Oct 13, 2009

misaditas said:
There is a difference between a traditional romance (like Mills & Boon) that I would read once, and something more complex that I would probably read more often. Then again, I'm not a fan of the romance genre on its own - I like stories that are complicated and have sub-plots.

In short, a Mills & Boon type is like a McDonalds whilst your novel sounds like a three-course meal and I know which I'd find more satisfying

I just read this again, because I couldn't put my finger on why this was bothering me, and then I highlighted the phrases. Yeah.

This is really not the appropriate forum to come and slam romance in, please. There's nothing wrong with expressing opinions, but expressing opinions that are a backhanded slam at the genre (where you are posting, I might add) is a bit unwelcome.

firedrake · Oct 13, 2009

Cooeee, I had the same thought process with my stuff.

I think I even posted a thread very similar to yours

In the end, with the wise input of AW members, I decided to go for 'women's fiction. I think yours would fit that bill.

Having said that, when I entered the first 250 words of Kestrel (as Women's fiction) in the SA contest, the agent suggested that it was Historical. :Wha:

I'm still pushing it as Women's fiction.

Irys, I'm with you on the romance. It gets very boring when people constantly denigrate the genre especially when it's such a popular one, even in lean economic times. Everyone needs somewhere to escape and M&B, Harlequin, etc. do a fine job of offering readers plenty of choices.

JanDarby · Oct 13, 2009

I can at least exclude one genre for absolute sure -- it's not erotica unles the ENTIRE STORY is based on the sex. A hot scene here and there simply makes it a story with sex in it.

For erotica, the PRIMARY PURPOSE of the story is to examine some aspect of sexuality, generally with titillation included.

I'd say it's not a romance, either. If the focus of the story is the woman's journey, it's women's fiction. With the historical setting, I'd just call it historical, period, or historical women's fiction. For romance, the story starts and ends with the h/h's relationship. There can be lots of subplots and layers, but the story question is: will they get their HEA. If the story question is more like, "will she grow up and cope with X," then it's women's fiction.

Likewise, it's not a mystery unless the story question is "will she unmask the murderer."

There are elements of mystery, romance, erotica, etc. in just about every book (and script) that's written. Terry Pratchett's books, for instance, while primarily fantasy, include mystery, romance and, not quite erotica, but a fair number of raunchy jokes (the Hedgehog song, anyone?). They're still fantasy.

Figure out the core of your story -- what's the story question, what are the turning points where the story/heroine change and go in a different direction, and what is the crisis? What links the four or five of those points together? What's the link between the first line of the book and the last line of the book?

If there's no line, if the turning points are random, if there's no common element to those points, then rewrite with the story's focus in mind. During revisions, I always post a phrase or sentence, something that encapsulates the core of my story, on my monitor to keep me on track. Anything that doesn't relate directly or indirectly to that core gets cut or reworked.

JD

raburrell · Oct 13, 2009

Romance readers (and publishers) do have certain expectations, Cooee. Straight romance isn't my cup of tea either, but only you can decide whether you'd want to focus your rewrites on making it fit the market or not.

The thing that stuck out in your post was that you said your beta readers seem to be 'missing' your hero when he's out of frame - I would suggest answering whether they're missing him due to romance-type expectations you've set up in the story, or perhaps due to something that's a flaw or weakness in the story itself (i.e. now you've got me interested in this guy, and he falls off the page). There may be nothing at all wrong as well, since I haven't read it, I don't know.

Since I'm well afield of your initial question though, I'll try to steer back round and toss in a vote for women's fiction as well.

havefaith22 · Oct 13, 2009

I agree with the above posters. I would consider it historical woman's fiction.

job · Oct 13, 2009

cooeedownunder said:
is there such a market for non-traditional romances that is a mixture of genres.

A book marketed as Genre Romance probably needs the male and female protagonists to be within shouting distance for most of the book. Even more basic to the genre than propinquity is that the protagonists' actions tend to be motivated by the love relationship.

If you are not sure whether your manuscript would be better marketed as Historical Fiction, Romance Genre, or Woman's Fiction, (or even, conceivably, Mystery Genre,) your best best might be to submit to agencies that handle all the above.

My advice would be to write the story that comes to you naturally and not try to make it 'fit' what you think Romance genre is.

There are some wonderful not-genre-Romance-but-love-story writers out there. Elizabeth Peters and Deanne Raybourn come to mind. A few of Jayne Ann Krentz's. Donati is another wonderful writer of this sort and most definitely Diana Gabaldon.

Probably somebody else can point out a few.

cooeedownunder · Oct 13, 2009

Thank you guys.

The beta readers weren't from here and I believe they were all category and title romance writers, unless there are a few more playing there like me.

And raburrell With the comments about the hero, I believe it was because they were critting the work as a pure romance - that is what the group are for. I thought it might be interesting to get some feedback on some of the scenes with my MC and a few fellows in it. I didn't feel when I posted there that my story met their guidelines for romance. That said, they gave me a greal deal of wonderful suggestions to turn it into one.

I thought it was good that they recongised who the main love interest was when he was introduced in the first chapter, despite their possibly being another, and also their reaction to another man who pursues her and it becomes apparent in the fourth chapter the original hero, might not be the hero at all LOL

I might go to the beta forum here and see if can get a couple of general readers for the first 4 chapters and see how I go.

It's very well possible, that my story is dragging in thoese first chapters and that was the real issue. I can't really tell, because some told me to expand the first chapter, and others said, just condense the first three chapters LOL

We'll see.

Cheers guys, and thanks.

panda · Oct 13, 2009

Romance is really broad...if your book is primarily a romance..it's gonna fall under romance, which is a good thing since this is the biggest selling genre lol.

Your publishers will ultimately decide where to shelve it. I have no idea how it's written but it may even sound more literary or what not rather than romance. But yeah as to heroes we like to be introduced fairly early. It is the same with mystery you wouldn't mention the murder five or six chapters in you would have lost your audience, that said there are a few romances that do introduce heroes later, but usually the heroine is with someone else or has another antihero or unenticing foil suitor. One example I can think of where she meets hero fairly late is rose in winter by jennifer donnelly which is set in 1800s London.
And your story sounds really interesting! I love historical romance but then I grew up on Victoria Holt..which was really historical based romance, hers often had mysteries as a subplot as well. If your main plot and main conflict centers around the love between your hero and heroine then you've probably got a romance on your hands.

cooeedownunder · Oct 13, 2009

I recently read The Tea Rose by Jennifer Donnelly - I enjoyed that one. It was written with multiple POVs so had the hero nearby most of the time.

funidream · Oct 14, 2009

My stories are historicals with a definite focus on accuracy of detail in the history and culture of the time period, but there is also a strong love story threaded through. In my debut my hero does not show up until chapter three - in both books, the hero and heroine are parted for long periods of time. Though I do have love scenes, they are of the "draw the curtain" variety.

My books are published as "historical fiction". Barnes and Noble shelves them in the Romance section. Border's puts them under "B" in literary fiction. Depending on the reader, I sometimes hear the books are "too romancey", and from others, that there is "not enough romance", and then all the Goldilocks out there think they are "just right".

When I was querying, I would alter my letter calling my story a Historical Romance, a Historical Adventure Story, Women's Fiction, Historical Fiction, whatever seemed suit the particular agent's interests.

It is all so nebulous. I would advise you to just write the story you want to write, and leave the classifying etc to others. The truth is, a book's ability to cross over and appeal to readers of several genres can only help sales.

Good Luck!!! :Sun:

Steam&Ink · Oct 14, 2009

Hi cooee! While I don't claim to be an expert on the romance genre, what the other posters are saying here makes sense.

I'm assuming we're talking about your MS which has Isobel as your MC, right? Having read and critted a few of your scenes, I think it falls more under "women's fiction" than "romance".

From the parameters I have read in this thread and a few other articles, the reason is this: Your MS is about Isobel's personal journey and struggle. She is faced with a huge challenge (trying to be someone she's not; trying to cope in a different class than her own), and she must use her own resources to survive. That's all women's fiction to me. The fact that there are some compelling and sexy scenes in it, adds spice to the MS, without changing the genre to romance.

Also, I'm not 100% sure (not an expert on the genre, as I said), but your word count probably would be too long for a straight romance - I think they're usually about 70,000-80,000 words. which of course is not the most important element, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

So, in summary, I'd agree with the poster who suggested Historical Women's Fiction. It's women's fiction, with an historical slant.

firedrake · Oct 14, 2009

steampunkette said:
Hi cooee! While I don't claim to be an expert on the romance genre, what the other posters are saying here makes sense.

I'm assuming we're talking about your MS which has Isobel as your MC, right? Having read and critted a few of your scenes, I think it falls more under "women's fiction" than "romance".

From the parameters I have read in this thread and a few other articles, the reason is this: Your MS is about Isobel's personal journey and struggle. She is faced with a huge challenge (trying to be someone she's not; trying to cope in a different class than her own), and she must use her own resources to survive. That's all women's fiction to me. The fact that there are some compelling and sexy scenes in it, adds spice to the MS, without changing the genre to romance.

Also, I'm not 100% sure (not an expert on the genre, as I said), but your word count probably would be too long for a straight romance - I think they're usually about 70,000-80,000 words. which of course is not the most important element, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

So, in summary, I'd agree with the poster who suggested Historical Women's Fiction. It's women's fiction, with an historical slant.

Yup, what SP said.
I definitely don't believe it's genre romance.

cooeedownunder · Oct 14, 2009

You last three guys, thanks.

And yes, I intend to cut my word count to around 100,000 when I can bare or dare delete

I went off in a tangent and decided not to think and just type to the end LOL

job · Oct 14, 2009

steampunkette said:
too long for a straight romance - I think they're usually about 70,000-80,000 words.

There are many Romances, especially category, at 70K to 80K.
But a good many single titles are longer. Historicals tend to run long.

Mine are straight Romance genre. They weigh in at about 115K.

funidream · Oct 15, 2009

job said:
There are many Romances, especially category, at 70K to 80K.
But a good many single titles are longer. Historicals tend to run long.

Mine are straight Romance genre. They weigh in at about 115K.

True. My Historical Woman's Fiction stories clocked in at 125,000 and 130,000 words - and word count was never an issue.

britwit · Oct 15, 2009

This was a great question with some really great answers that helped me out as well. I faced this same problem with my first book. It was the story of one woman's personal journey, and I felt very strongly that it fell under "Women’s Fiction". More than one agent told me WF was dead and to re-write it with a more romantic leaning.
So all of the advice here just backs up what I originally thought.
Such a wonderful forum!

jodiodi · Oct 15, 2009

I find this discussion informative as well. Thanks for asking this question.

I've tried to categorize my books as romance, but they're not 'traditional'. Mine have mystery, intrigue, battles--but the romance/relationships run through the whole story.

Perhaps I'll try querying in a different genre. Romance hasn't gotten me anywhere.

raburrell · Oct 15, 2009

britwit said:
This was a great question with some really great answers that helped me out as well. I faced this same problem with my first book. It was the story of one woman's personal journey, and I felt very strongly that it fell under "Women’s Fiction". More than one agent told me WF was dead and to re-write it with a more romantic leaning.
So all of the advice here just backs up what I originally thought.
Such a wonderful forum!

I've heard 'chick lit' (SATC-type stuff) is dead, but to me, women's fiction is a broader category. I think that still has a pulse, as much as anything else at the moment at least.

Irysangel · Oct 15, 2009

britwit said:
More than one agent told me WF was dead and to re-write it with a more romantic leaning.

Yikes, really? That is all we heard about at RWA this last year - EVERYONE was looking for more women's fiction. That it is the next big thing in romance.

Perhaps they just didn't know how to sell it?

cooeedownunder · Oct 15, 2009

I don't know, but I can't help but wonder how many readers of category and title romances read what we are calling women's fiction and vice versa.

funidream · Oct 15, 2009

I've always hopped around genres, with Romance and Historical Fiction being my faves - which is probably why I write a kind of hybrid of the two. I love a lot of historical detail, but I am a real sucker for love story and an HEA.

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