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Fact of the matter is, by self-pubbing the book you've used your first publication rights, no matter how many people do or don't buy it. Agents aren't going to want to see it if they can't sell those rights, unless something happens and 25,000 people suddenly buy it.

BenPanced said:

. . . unless something happens and 25,000 people suddenly buy it.

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I might be willing to buy one; that leaves only 24,999 to go. ;-)

Wait a sec--you queried a novel after you'd already arranged to self-pub it?

Oh dear. That's not a good thing. Those agents aren't going to be interested in it at all when they find out you self-pubbed it. You basically just threw the whole darn book into a hole filled with quicksand as far as garnering representation for that book goes.

Was it printed or published? (Yes, Virginia, there is a difference and it's huge.) What is your contract with the printer/publisher? Where was it released? Does it have an ISBN number?

Get this resolved before proceeding with agents. You could be anywhere from not much of a problem to absolutely screwed. And you're not giving us enough information to begin to help you. Unfortunately, we need the gory details.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

If the novel's been published - even self-published - it's dead. You can't sell it as a new novel to anyone anywhere. 1st rights have been burned.

Do NOT send the partials and fulls to the agents and waste their time. As soon as they find out about the self-pubbed version - AND THEY WILL - you've blown any credibility you had as a writer and pretty much guaranteed those agents (and any they pass the story along to) will never make requests from you again. Reputation is everything; don't blow it on a book you can't sell.

Self-pubbed books may or may not be under contract to the publisher who put them out. You can't just walk away from that contract and try to hand the book to someone else.

(Are you talking vanity publishing or actual self-publishing where your name appears as the publisher?)

ETA: nvm - looks like you got snagged by iUniverse.

Looking at your other threads, it looks like it was published by iUniverse and had an ISBN. Assuming those facts are correct, here's the best approach I can suggest (and yes, I know this approach sucks).

1. Start writing your next novel and figure this one is probably terminal.

2. Contact iUniverse and make sure you've got all your rights back and there is nothing that would impede another publisher from publishing it.

3. If you can get your rights back, write a letter to the three agents, explaining what happened. (Yes, this letter will make you sound like an idiot, but sometimes that's what you've got to do.) If any of the agents are willing to proceed, give thanks to whatever god you pray to. (Also, I'd recommend buying a lottery ticket. When luck is flowing your way, you need to grab it.)

4. Assuming no contact, continue writing your next novel. Remember you snagged an agent once, so you can do it again.

5. Remember that a lot of us learn good judgment by screwing up, and you're in a big crowd.

6. Continue to write your next book.

7. Sometime in the far distant future (at least a couple of years), when you have an agent and editor for the book your writing now, talk to them about this book and explain. They might decide to publish it then.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

kayleamay said:

Gory details? Let's see.
I went with iUniverse. Not a horrible experience. It was designated as an Editor's Choice book, which was nice, but at the time I wasn't really planning on selling it. Without the sappy backstory, I wrote and published it for personal reasons.

I checked, and I can pull the plug right now if I choose. I own the rights, so it's not like there's anyone standing in the middle. I know others who have done this, so I'm not going to give up an invite for materials just because I happen to have a bound copy of it. That seems foolish. (Besides, I love the cover. )

So what I'm asking is: If I can pull the plug with iU and make this just a plan ol' ms again, should I or should I not mention the iU thing to agents requesting copy? I don't have any qualms about sending iU a cease and desist. I have my copy, which is all I set out for in the first place.

Does that clear things up at all?

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ETA: You can read the below for another opinion, but I totally agree with Jim's advice above, with the added advice that if you do write the three agents and explain, be clear in your explanation that it has been published, but what the status is - ie, what steps you have taken to get the rights back. but you must disclose the publication.


Caveat, this is a tricky question. It is my opinion, that the book is "published" and can't be unpublished. But regardless of the intricacies, if it has even ever appeared listed on any website as for sale or as coming soon, etc., then I think you have an ethical and perhaps legal obligation to tell the agent, up front and with the materials, it's status. For example, if you did decide to "pull the plug," I think you have an obligation to tell the agent you started the process with iUniverse, and it went so far as being listed on the website and you have bound copies (and any other relevant facts, ie, it has an isbn, it was listed for sale for x amount of time, it is still listed for sale, etc). And then the agent can make their own decision.

But if you hold that info back, i think it is dishonest.

Now, if it never appeared for sale or coming soon, etc., anywhere, never had an isbn, etc, then maybe you need to get a more expert opinion. But I think if it was listed for sale or coming soon, or had an isbn, then I think you have to disclose it up front.

good luck.

~suki

You may own the rights, but you've used 1st rights. The book is published, with a publication date, and an ISBN. It's being sold in the iUniverse store.

http://www.iuniverse.com/Bookstore/BookDetail.aspx?BookId=SKU-000123336

If any one of those agents googles you, that link is going to show up. The book is dead.

kayleamay said:

I guess I'm confused. So, I used first rights. Logic tells me that agents are looking for good stories that have commercial potential. No? So if this fits that criteria (and only time will tell if it does or does not), then a couple of printed copies that are no longer available shouldn't make much difference. Am I missing an important puzzle piece here?

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Yeah, I think you are trying to way downplay the significance. Your book has been published. Period. End of story. Even if it becomes no longer for sale, it was published.

Now, I'm of the thinking that you don't really have anything to lose by contacting those three agents, explainging the situation, and seeing what happens. But I would first get all the rights back you can from iUniverse, and I wouldn't downplay it. You aren't being honest if you say "I have some copies with isbns but I stopped it from being sold." It was up for sale, at multiple sites, with an isbn, it really doesn't matter that no one purchased it. Even if you "pull the plug" now you can't unpublish it.

So, again, if you want to contact those agents and explain the situation, do so. But you can't undo what has already been done - the book was already published. Books published in one form or another are occasionally acquired by larger publishers and then re-issued or republished. But generally that happens when the book was first a commercial success. And any publisher the agent shopped it to, would have to acquire the rights to reissue or republish it, but first rights are a big dea lin publishing and they have already been used.

Is it possible the book is so good that the agent would be willing to take it on even though it will be more complicated to shop? Maybe. And could it be good enough that a publisher will want to reissue or republish it, even though first rights are used and it's a slightly irregular situation? Sure, it's possible.

But if either has any chance of happening, you have to vbe clear, honest and upfront. Pretending it wasn't published by iUniverse won't help you. So, accept that fact and then: (i) get back whatever rights you can, and (ii) explain in clear and honest terms what happened and the status of the book.

good luck.

~suki

Think of it like this:

Agent LOVES your book and signs you.

Agent sends the book out on submissions.

Publishers LOVE the book and make an offer.

You do a Snoopy dance of joy, as does your agent.

Publisher sends a contract to purchase those 1st rights (because that's what they'll assume they're getting)

Agent: Can't sign this contract, 1st rights are gone.

Publisher: .....

Agent: But the story's still real-

*gets cut off by publisher hanging up the phone.*

ETA: Googling you and your book brings up iUniverse as the first hit. Most, if not all, agents do that now.

kayleamay said:

Apparently you missed the part about full disclosure? And I've already checked. I don't have to "buy" the first rights. I own them. If I want the book out of circulation, all I have to do is send in a form. It costs me nothing. Just like having my book rejected costs me nothing. So, why are you so insistent that I have something to lose here?

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You do NOT own first rights at this point. You gave them away when you self-published your novel.

What you own is the copyright and subsequent reprint rights.

eqb said:

You do NOT own first rights at this point. You gave them away when you self-published your novel.

What you own is the copyright and subsequent reprint rights.

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This.

kayleamay said:

So, why are you so insistent that I have something to lose here?

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I know you probably think I'm being mean, but you DO have something to lose. You can lose your credibility as a writer. You can lose your reputation before you gain one. You said you're going with full disclosure, so that's good. Hopefully you'll still be able to query those same agents again when you have something saleable.

(FWIW, you can tweak the book - new title, new names, new places, tighten up those places you thought were weak and put in the new beginning, and it's no longer the book iUniverse published. Then you've got something you can sell.)

kayleamay said:

Okay, fair enough. And why, if this is only a matter of a small amount of paperwork, would this be a deal breaker?

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Because most publishers require first rights.

You gave those away when you self-published.

kayleamay said:

Okay, fair enough. And why, if this is only a matter of a small amount of paperwork, would this be a deal breaker?

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Not to be crude, but think of it as virginity - once you have done the deed, even if you regret it immediately and decide not to do it again, even if the act is interrupted, if it has reached a certain point, technically, it has been done. You are no longer a virgin, even if you wish it had never happened and plan on never even seeing the other person again and stopped mid act before you could even enjoy it.

Or think of a new car. A brand new car, sold and driven off the lot, but only one mile. And then returned. But if the title has been recorded, it can no longer be sold as a new car - it just became a used car, even if only owned for an hour and driven one mile. Its value was depreciated simply by that technical transfer of ownership, because all kinds of legal stuff just happened - ie, it effects warranties, return rights, consumer protections, lending issues, etc.

Your book was assigned an isbn and offered for sale. It has been published. You can't undo that, even if you pull it from the market. First print rights, like the virginity and new car status, are gone.

And publishers are generally only interested in first print rights for a multitude of reasons.

So, I speculate that it is possible that some agents or editors might like the book so much and think it has enough potential to want to put the extra time and work into figuring out the complications caused by first print rights being gone.

But the reality is it is now a (somewhat? far?) less marketable and attractive product than it was before it was published.

So have at it - take the steps suggested - contact the agents. But do so while understanding the reality of the situation and being clear and honest about it.

~suki

Unfortunately, kayleamay, you're not being realistic according to the standards of the publishing industry. The book you've pitched to agents after it was contracted with iUniverse has no viability in the publishing world. The first rights are gone. No one will want to take it on.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's the way it is. Any other publication of this book would be deemed a reprint, and no one will want to reprint a self-pubbed book.

I think that letting the agents know what is going on with the book is the right thing to do.

Sure, they are probably going to pass, but you've been polite, if a bit naive, and you'll live to write another day.

You made a mistake, big deal. Suck it up and move on. I'm sure you're not the first person that has done something like this. There's a lot to learn about publishing, nobody is an expert right out of the gate.

don't beat yourself up about it, it's not good for you.

Well, yes, we answered your question right away. It just took a couple rounds to convince you what you've done and its consequences.

Good luck.