Fiction proposals

I think I'm developing a love-hate thing for the concept of "fiction proposal."

Here's why. When those of us who write nonfic get an idea, they write up a proposal. Ideally, some publisher buys it, sends them a check and THEN (and only then) do they start writing the book.

Fiction acquisitions folks, however, do not want to look at anything from us until the book is DONE. Unless they've worked with us before, they do not want to see our idea, send us a nice check, and let us sit down to write the book.

A fiction proposal should be a nicely written query letter, a synopsis and three chapters. Not a marketing plan, comps, promo plan, or anything more than those three items above.

Getting into thinking a fiction proposal is anything more than that...I think I'm joining the Unarmed Resistance.

Thoughts?

If by a proposal you mean a query, synopsis and three chapters, yes, I completely agree with you that it's necessary.

If you mean an initial encounter that must include much more than that -- no, sorry. I'm not going to offer comps or market analyses or anything such as that. It's the strength of the writing that I hope will sell my projects, and that's best shown in a summary and some chapters.

In CBA, they may do things differently. I don't know yet. I did sell at least one book in the Christian market on proposal, and that proposal was a synopsis and a letter saying basically, "Does this interest you?" and they said yes, it did.

Thank heaven the Christian market is bigger than CBA publishers.

I've done both--the whole proposal shebang and the query/synop/3 chaps. Once I started targeting mainstream agents, the only part of the proposal I used again was the "comparable books" section--and only once.

But I'm publication whore (see sig ) and I was more than willing to jump through hoops to get a request for partial or full. We all do what we gotta do.

Deb, good points. Many ABA or secular publishers are publishing Christian books and many, many agents are repping in both arenas. And even in Christian markets, this is not always required.
Writing a good book is the single most important factor. Making connections is no small perk either
A 'proposal' may vary widely from agent to agent and publisher to publisher. And after many years published I can tell y'all that what works for one editor or agent won't work for another and what works today may be totally wrong in a few months.

IOW _ it's a lot of work to get your work in front of an editor or agent

Tracy - this is not to ding you but in this forum more than any other I think we tend to be openly curious about people promoting services to writers. What are your qualifications for teaching this in particular? I'm not casting doubt, just saying I checked your links and decided to just ask outright (yes, I'm being lazy but as I said, writing = work and I should be writing/working!)

I ask because in the wake of ACFW (an org I have championed as a good place for new writers) this is the second encounter I have had with someone offering to teach writers how to do something they feel is required of a Christian writer. The other person is charging a lot of money (and I can't find any credentials other than having gone to conf. and having been writing and being unpublished for a long time) so my 'spidey senses' are tingling already.

annie

Oops - I saw I clicked the links under your name and not the links that say Ginny is teaching this, with her credentials (I know her as well).

Sorry about that.

I love Ginny, that's not an endorsement of the class, just saying

annie

Okay, somebody sent me over to this site because they said y'all were talking about me behind my back. I decided to present my front so you can talk about that, too.
(Just kidding, folks!)

Seriously, when Tracy asked if I'd like to teach one of her WIES Workshops, I told her I thought this one would be a good idea because I'm asked over and over how to create a fiction book proposal. Not to blow my own horn, but my agent has sent the book proposal I wrote for my first mystery to her unpublished clients to use as a guide in creating their own. A few years ago I taught a workshop at the ACFW conference on How to Write a Novel Proposal, and the room was packed. So there seems to be a need among writers who are early in their careers to learn how to do it.

Deb, I hear what you're saying about only including the synopsis and sample chapters. And I know in ABA that's exactly what the publishers want to see. But CBA publishers and agents have fairly specific guidelines about the contents of the proposals they want to see, and unfortuantely, they do include things like a market comparison and promotion strategy. If you check out the websites of some of the top literary agents in Christian publishing, you'll see the components they require in the poposals submitted to them. In fact, some of them even post sample proposals on their sites. (Take a look here for links to several of them.)

Annie, my friend, I love you dearly! Nothing wrong with questioning someone's credentials.

GinnySmith said:

Nothing wrong with questioning someone's credentials.

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I should have finished my thought. (I'm a newbie, remember? You have to be nice to me. The little blurb beneath my name says so. ) I don't mind spelling out my credentials, and I've worked with Tracy before, so I know she's got some great experience, and is professional enough not to attempt anything she doesn't feel qualified for.

Hey, I've been looking around this site. (Avoidance behavior. I'm at a rough spot in my current book.) This is a fun site! I wonder how I missed it before?

I read this post yesterday and was not going to reply.

But the more I have thought about it...

There's no way I could write a proposal for fiction I write...because as I'm writing it, it takes on a life of its' own. I don't understand how any one could do that.

I understand freelancing and the need there....but not on a novel. I guess I'm too old and set in ways to even understand how one would do something this concept.

Best wishes to those that can do this.

Wendy, I wrote the proposal like I write the synopsis and query--after the book was done. I couldn't have written any of them while the book was still being written, because just like you said, characters do what they want, and sometimes you just have to let them tell their own story.

I'll be guided by this in the two proposals requested at the recent conference, by my agent. If she says do the whole swack, I'll do that. Most of it, as far as marketing, comps, etc., will be batting at black cats in the dark. Because I know of nobody in our marketplace whose voice is much like mine, so it's a scattershot approach, and I've never heard from my agent that I'm talking so much twaddle in a full proposal.

I've written them before, you see. I hate doing it.

Now, that said, the editor from Steeple Hill asked for a simple snop+3, and that's what we'll be sending her. The editor from Nelson merely said, "Oh, this sounds intriguing," so I'll be sending her whatever my agent says we must.

I dread doing this constantly in the future. I hope the Christian-fic market does not become standardized to this kind of project-introduction. They're not easy to write, and they require me to speculate using information I do not have -- what they're acquiring now, whose new voices may be similar or contrasting to mine, what they feel the market trends are.

Worst, they take away time from what I SHOULD be doing -- writing publishable novels.

I've snarked enough for one thread, I think.

Tracy -Want to make it clear I was talking about this workshop alone and as I said, hadn't seen it was Ginny teaching it until after I hit send. Sorry if I touched a nerve but I do feel protective of writers in situations where they are being asked for money, so I ask questions because many won't or don't know they can or should. As I also said, that's pretty SOP for this site, esp from ol pros like me (my 35th book hits shelves Nov 1).

Ginny - glad you're offering your expertise.

annie
http://www.facebook.com/anniejones.author

L.Jones said:

(my 35th book hits shelves Nov 1).

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Wow. Many congratulations.

[hijacking thread for a moment]

Deb, congrats on Angel with a Back Hoe releasing today!

Comparable Titles and Changing Synopses

Deb Kinnard said:

I'll be guided by this in the two proposals requested at the recent conference, by my agent. ...I hope the Christian-fic market does not become standardized to this kind of project-introduction. .

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Deb, I've published several books with Steeple Hill, and after the first two, I no longer have to do the full proposal. Only the synop + 3 chapters. Once you get your foot in the door with a publisher, I think you don't have to go to the work of identifying your target market. They KNOW your target market. And actually, Steeple Hill does such an absolutely excellent job of marketing to their audience, they probably don't rely as much on all the marketing aspects of the proposal. They can tell by your synopsis and writing if the book is a fit for their audience.

Other publishers, and especially publishers who have not worked with an author before, are very focused on marketing. They're not so much concerned with who has a similar style and "voice" as yours -- they want to know what readers are going to buy this book. In other words, if readers bought THAT book, they're going to buy THIS book. Doesn't mean it has to be the same voice at all.

And one thing I always stress about the comparison title section is that this is not a bullet-point list. Your job in the proposal is to make your book stand out as unique. You only identify comparable titles so the marketing folks will get an idea of the demographics and size of the potential readership. It's totally a marketing thing.

There's no way I could write a proposal for fiction I write...because as I'm writing it, it takes on a life of its' own. I don't understand how any one could do that.

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Wendy, my books do this, too. However, I still have to write a synopsis giving them my idea of how the plot is going to work out. Early in my career, with my first book, the synopsis was written after the book was finished. Every book since then, though, the synopsis is a high-level "best guess" of the plot. Though I have to say, I love working on the synopsis. That's where the story starts to work itself out for me. That "taking on a life of its own" begins at the synopsis stage, for me.

Thanks, Calla! I'm really pumped about this book coming out. This will be #5. Books 6 and 7 will both release in April.

Ginny, I hear what you're saying. However, let me run a scenario by you. I'm going to propose a project to an editor who asked for it at a conference. Now, I can give her comps based on a couple of books I've read, that are now years old--and how do I know she's ever heard of them? To do this justice, I would have to "know" about all the man-and-woman-inherit-a-landscaping-business books out there, and I simply cannot have my finger on the pulse of umpteen different publishers putting out hundreds of books per year. I doubt anyone can.

To list "comps" that might prove valid would be merely to guess. This seems like spinning my wheels in mud, since I'm just groping at titles that might--MIGHT--make my book stand out. I cannot know that ahead of time.

And, as you point out so aptly, the marketing departments know a lot more about target audiences than this lowly romance scribbler is ever going to do.

Deb Kinnard said:

Now, I can give her comps based on a couple of books I've read, that are now years old--and how do I know she's ever heard of them?

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I don't think the purpose is to come up with books that address the same subjects as yours. It's to identify the target audience, the people TODAY who are buying books. (That's why they say not to use classics in your comparison section.) Sounds to me like your subjects are unique, which is awesome. So, what kind of reader is going to buy that book? And what book did that reader buy last week?

If your book is romantic suspense, then your target audience is readers of romantic suspense. What are the bestsellers in RS these days? Who are the top RS writers in the field? If I were proposing a RS book to a new publisher right now (i.e. one that I haven't published with before), I'd be looking closely at Colleen Coble's latest book, because she's one of the top in that genre. I would be aiming for her audience, because if they like hers, they'll like mine.

You and I do disagree on one thing. I think staying up-to-date on the latest books, especially within your chosen genre, is an author's job. This is a business. A wise business person keeps a close eye on the market, and their customer base, and on the competition. That's just good business. No, we can't keep up with every book that is released, but I think we absolutely need to keep up with the ones that are top sellers. Especially in our genres.

FYI - when I'm coming up with a market comparison list, I look closely at the Christy Award finalists in that genre, and the Book of the Year finalists. Those are the ones that are getting attention from readers, so I'll bet publishers know them too.

Trust your Agent

Deb, this discussion is moot for you, isn't it? You have an agent. Your agent will let you know what you have to do! And if your agent says not to worry about all those other elements of a proposal, then LUCKY YOU!!!!!

Well, sort of moot. Tamela asks for comps so she can send the proposal. Since I haven't sold in the larger CBA market, I really have no idea who my current readers are. And as far as my target audience, "romance readers" will have to do, LOL.

GinnySmith said:

I should have finished my thought. (I'm a newbie, remember? You have to be nice to me. The little blurb beneath my name says so. ) I don't mind spelling out my credentials, and I've worked with Tracy before, so I know she's got some great experience, and is professional enough not to attempt anything she doesn't feel qualified for.

Hey, I've been looking around this site. (Avoidance behavior. I'm at a rough spot in my current book.) This is a fun site! I wonder how I missed it before?

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Hi Ginny,

I'm glad you made it here. I should have suggested it myself. I don't know why I didn't.

The information you gave about fiction proposals in the CBA is precisely the kind of thing we need here -- the differences between publishing with the CBA and the ABA. I've kicked around the ABA for several years and never heard of a "fiction proposal".

As a former moderator of this forum and current super-moderator of Absolute Write, I hope you'll stick around.

If you're a Christian (garden variety) author writing for the general market, Christians included, and not writing for the targeted market of evangelical Christians that the Christian Booksellers Association was set up to serve in 1950 then you'll be just as confused as I was at first when you hear ABA vs. CBA.

Not to worry, I think I can clear things up. In the CBA circle, ABA is used to represent general market and CBA is used of course to mean those authors who write for publishers affiliated with the Christian Booksellers Association. Affiliated means these publishers pay a fee to CBA to ensure their work shows up in larger Christian Bookstores or rather Evangelical Christian bookstores. Non-affiliated Christian publishers rarely, if ever get in. Of course these publishers, like Steeple Hill and Thomas Nelson and Zondervan must have their author's write so as not to offend those who visit and buy fiction at the larger Christian bookstores so there are writing conventions involved and denominational guidelines if you will, that make the work less appealing to general market Christians readers.

I would like to point out that it's slightly inaccurate to refer to ABA as a market. ABA is a group that was set up to help Independent authors (for free) promote their work to Independent bookstores. There are a large amount of authors who produce work which is non-offensive to a wide-variety of Christians who are members of the American Booksellers Association.

CBA is a market and an exclusive one at that. The Christian Booksellers Association charges publishers to be a part and insists that all fee paying publishers produce work that meet their Evangelical standards, work that is very different from anything general market publishers put out.

It stands to reason that what exclusive CBA publishers expect to see from prospective clients in the way of proposals etc . . . would be very different from what general market publishers ask for. More than that, I think it's important to note that CBA is only a subset of the overall Christian market much like Harlequin is a subset of the overall Romance market.