2 questions

[edfrzr]

First of all an observation. I recently completed my final read through (4th time) of my first completed novel ANONYMOUS. As I was reading the third time, something didn't seem quite right. AHA! It was the nasty "that". I went back through and searched for every "that" in the MS. I removed over 700.

Question 1. Do you read the sentence with and without the "that" in it, and if it reads okay without it, should you remove it? (common sense tells me yes)

Question 2. Do any of you ever read something you wrote and go, "Wow, I can't believe I wrote that?"


I am not a pro by any stretch, but some of the stuff that comes out onto paper still amazes me. I was just wondering if I was alone.

[maestrowork]

1. that would be up to you.

2. I marvel at my geniusness all the time.

And the ultimate answer is 42.

[edfrzr]

Oops! I guess that last part does sound pretty pretentious. That really isn't the way I meant to come across. I was really referring to the untapped creativity that flows in all of us.

Besides, I marvel at your genius also.

[Birol]

1. Ray's right, but I usually remove it. Why use wordcount for a word that is not needed?

2. Yes, but usually, mine is "I can't believe I wrote that garbage." Followed by hysterical laughter. And, yes, I've been known to do this with things people have even paid to publish, too.

[Garpy]

I haven't worried too much about 'that'. I would I tend towards pruning some out if too many are clustered together in a paragraph. I think you can find yourself agonizing too much over these rules that some people put forward. If it sounds right as you read it, then it probably is right.

As for the latter question...I rarely am amazed by my writing. Most often I am irritated or appalled by it. But then I think that many writers suffer from that. I recall Stephen King saying he generally hates to read his stuff. So for me, when I do read back a draft, anything that doesn't stand out as being overtly rubbish, I'll accept as being okay.

[GPatten]

Oh grone! I thought I was finished until I highlighted all of my ‘that’ and it lit up like a Christmas tree.
I say remove them, but not all, only the ones that are not needed.

passive, misused, or over-used words and phrases in a document.

Consider the following words: is, isn't, am, are, aren't, was, wasn't, were, will, would, won't, has, had, have, be, been, do, don't, did, didn't, does, doesn't, seem, seems, exist, exists, appears, make, makes, show, shows, occur, occurs, get, got, went, put, some, many, most, that, very, extremely, totally, completely, wholly, utterly, quite, rather, slightly, fairly, somewhat, and suddenly.

[KimJo]

I tend to overuse "that" but since I write in first person I figure maybe it's just the way the character talks. (It gives me a good excuse, anyway.)

In readthroughs of my writing I've occasionally found sentences I don't remember writing and marvel at them. But only occasionally.

Maestrowork- ah, but what's the ultimate question?

[GPatten]

I forgot #2
I go Wow all the time. Every day I find out I have a long way to go.

[KTC]

1. I slay my thats all the time. Then I promise to be more liberal with my thats. Then, the next time I edit, I slay all my thats!

2. I do sometimes read my stuff like it's the first time I'm reading it and I find myself thinking, "Wow!" Almost like I can't believe I wrote it because it's new to me, as though I were asleep when the creative demons in my head wrote it. It's not always a good wow, but a lot of the time it is. It's like when the nerd guy in The Breakfast Club punches his own arm in salute to himself after reading the essay he wrote to hand in to the teacher at the end of the movie. But, damn, it's hard to pat your own back, isn't it?!

[loquax]

I've always been a little bit confused about 'not using the passive'. There are many, many instances where it has to be used. I don't know how else to write it.

e.g. "The house was big." What am I supposed to write? "The house looked big"? What's wrong with was?!

[edfrzr]

I leave in "that" in all the dialogue. It's just the way people talk. I meant more in the narrative.

Plus, I rarely marvel at ALL I create; usually only a sentence or a thought here and there.

[DragonHeart]

#1: It's not necessary, but it's up to personal preference in my opinion.

#2: I read my writing all the time and say "Wow, I can't believe people call it good writing!" I'm very self-critical and I have yet to impress myself with anything I've put to paper/computer screen.

~DragonHeart~

[cwfgal]

1. I always do, but I tend to use "that" unnecessarily a lot. I have a bunch of pet words I do a hunt-down-and-kill for, such as "moment." My characters have far too many moments.

2. Can't say I've ever had a "wow!" moment(<---see!) but I have found a phrase or two that made me stop and think, "Hm, that's not half bad." (Note: 2 occurences of "that" in previous sentence but I'd let them both stay.)

Beth

[hpoppink]

1. Read it out loud. Which sounds better? Write it that way.

2. No way. I'm a big believer in crappy first drafts.

[Ronda]

1. That depends - but that is generally used much more often than necessary.
2. I am often amazed with the typos I've missed and sometimes I have indeed read something in my work and thought I was asleep at the computer when that gem came out, because I don't recall writing it.

As for "was" - that could easily be a whole other thread! I would consider "the house was big" to be an acceptable sentence, but bland and non-descriptive. "The house made me feel like a pee beside a watermelon" gives a feeling of size (though it probably isn't the feeling you were going for).

A friend of mine wrote this excellent scene about a tornado in her book, but one pitiful sentence stood out. "Peter was terrified." Brought that scene to a dead stop. BORING! I suggested she show his terror through his actions.

Ronda

[edfrzr]

Why would you be peeing beside a watermelon? The image that would make you feel small there are far too graphic.

[Garpy]

I think the problem with aggressively culling passive words like 'that' and 'was' everytime you see them, is that you will end up squirting out a load of awkward verbal diarrhea each time you attempt to restate the sentence....

'the house was big'
'the house felt large enough to engulf her, like a watermelon might a pip.'

...and quite often, you'll find yourself crafting a really clumsy metaphor in the process.

My advice on passives are....if the sentence sounds right as you read it, then it is, no matter how many literary rules you might have broken.

[MadScientistMatt]

I've always been a little bit confused about 'not using the passive'. There are many, many instances where it has to be used. I don't know how else to write it.

e.g. "The house was big." What am I supposed to write? "The house looked big"? What's wrong with was?!

That is not passive voice at all. It simply uses "was." Passive often uses "was" when written in the past tense.

A true example of passive voice would be something like, "The house was lived in by James." Which could be rewritten as, "James was living in the house," which is not passive, even though it does retain the word "was".

On the other hand, in some cases, there are some viable substitutes for "The house was big." In some cases, the original sentance is just fine as it is. But other ways of telling it could add other details or characterization. Here are some other possible ways an author could convey the size of the house, casting "big" in different terms and different lights.

James lived in a big house on Millionaire's Row.
Even though it was a large house, it seemed barely adequate for a family with ten children.
I couldn't believe how bloody f'ing big his house was. What the hell did he need a house the size of York Minster for, anyway?
"You bought a new house? Congratulations." "Yeah, it's five thousand square feet. And it has a pool, two acre lawn, and you won't believe the things the previous owner threw in..."

[zarch]

You're right, Matt. Folks should realize that past tense and passive voice aren't the same thing. Your explanation was a good one! Passive voice is almost never acceptable, for it creates awkwardness and wordiness.

The chair was thrown by me.
I threw the chair.

The second sentence is easily the better one.

[Nateskate]

I have my own "that" cemetary. I don't delete them all. You just can't do that. Or else "you just can't do", and it wouldn't be the same.

[loquax]

I must admit, I did kind of already know that. But I just ran Roger Carlson's passive voice highlighter on my work (which is fantastic, by the way) and it scared the crap out of me. Cheers for the clarification though - I could have easily messed up my whole WIP if I'd have taken it seriously.

And I was just using 'the house was big' as an example. I know there are a few duds around here, so I won't blame you for thinking that it may very well have been an example of how I write. I have an excerpt here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15349), if anyone's interested (although I think that the first sentence might use the passive voice... oh well).

[brinkett]

I must admit, I did kind of already know that. But I just ran Roger Carlson's passive voice highlighter on my work (which is fantastic, by the way) and it scared the crap out of me. Cheers for the clarification though - I could have easily messed up my whole WIP if I'd have taken it seriously.

If you use Word, its passive sentence grammar check is quite good.

[loquax]

If you use Word, its passive sentence grammar check is quite good.
How do you get to that? It sounds good.

[brinkett]

For Word 2003:

1. Go to Tools->Spelling and Grammar...
2. Press Options...
3. Under the Grammar section, press Settings...
4. You'll see there's a ton of stuff you can check/uncheck, and one is "passive sentences".

[reph]

I have an excerpt here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15349), if anyone's interested (although I think that the first sentence might use the passive voice... oh well).
The first and third sentences of the first paragraph do use passive.

Thorough discussions of what sentences are written in passive and what sentences are written in active, and how such sentences are to be evaluated, have been seen on this forum. You might be helped by a search for them so that they can be read by you.

[loquax]

...You might be helped by a search for them so that they can be read by you.
LOL - Reph, I didn't know you had a sense of humour!:ROFL:

Edit: Cheers Brinkett!

[reph]

Reph, I didn't know you had a sense of humour!
Three years ago, I got a good deal on a used one. Now I don't know what I'd do without it.

[Mistook]

I use a lot of "which" and "who" to replace many "that"s


As for "was"... the very worst place to stick one is in the first sentence of the first chapter.

[reph]

I use a lot of "which" and "who" to replace many "that"s
Other solutions might work better. Two reasons: (1) "Which" is the same kind of boring word as "that" – like a piece of gray cardboard on the shelf between origami paper and gift wrap. (2) Grammatically, "that" and "which" aren't interchangeable.

[jules]

On a slightly related note:

Today's usage tip: "Majority" means more than half of a set of countable things. "The majority of the apples had gone bad" is okay: apples are separate objects. "The majority of the flour had gone bad" isn't: flour is a uniform mass.

Where do you get these from?

[reph]

Where do you get these from?
I make up one every few days. The content comes from what I already know.

[LightShadow]

I always omit unnecessary words, adverbs, needless dialogue attribution, passive verbs when it doesn't screw things up, but never my charming personality. Hmmm, maybe that's the problem. Note to self. Stop being charming and be downright genius all the time. Thanks, Maestro, and all of you other geniuses in the world of Absolute Write! Couldn't have become a less than charming legend in my own mind without you.

[Kiva Wolfe]

Congrats on finishing your fourth edit and also your first manuscript.

Answer 1. I guess it all depends on what the meaning of that word is...how Clintonian.

Answer 2. Bad or good, I usually own up to everything I write, but sometimes I ask myself, "Wow, what was I on?"