2 questions

edfrzr · Jul 10, 2005

First of all an observation. I recently completed my final read through (4th time) of my first completed novel ANONYMOUS. As I was reading the third time, something didn't seem quite right. AHA! It was the nasty "that". I went back through and searched for every "that" in the MS. I removed over 700.

Question 1. Do you read the sentence with and without the "that" in it, and if it reads okay without it, should you remove it? (common sense tells me yes)

Question 2. Do any of you ever read something you wrote and go, "Wow, I can't believe I wrote that?"

I am not a pro by any stretch, but some of the stuff that comes out onto paper still amazes me. I was just wondering if I was alone.

maestrowork · Jul 10, 2005

1. that would be up to you.

2. I marvel at my geniusness all the time.

And the ultimate answer is 42.

edfrzr · Jul 10, 2005

Oops! I guess that last part does sound pretty pretentious. That really isn't the way I meant to come across. I was really referring to the untapped creativity that flows in all of us.

Besides, I marvel at your genius also.

Birol · Jul 10, 2005

1. Ray's right, but I usually remove it. Why use wordcount for a word that is not needed?

2. Yes, but usually, mine is "I can't believe I wrote that garbage." Followed by hysterical laughter. And, yes, I've been known to do this with things people have even paid to publish, too.

Garpy · Jul 11, 2005

I haven't worried too much about 'that'. I would I tend towards pruning some out if too many are clustered together in a paragraph. I think you can find yourself agonizing too much over these rules that some people put forward. If it sounds right as you read it, then it probably is right.

As for the latter question...I rarely am amazed by my writing. Most often I am irritated or appalled by it. But then I think that many writers suffer from that. I recall Stephen King saying he generally hates to read his stuff. So for me, when I do read back a draft, anything that doesn't stand out as being overtly rubbish, I'll accept as being okay.

GPatten · Jul 11, 2005

Oh grone! I thought I was finished until I highlighted all of my ‘that’ and it lit up like a Christmas tree.
I say remove them, but not all, only the ones that are not needed.

passive, misused, or over-used words and phrases in a document.

Consider the following words: is, isn't, am, are, aren't, was, wasn't, were, will, would, won't, has, had, have, be, been, do, don't, did, didn't, does, doesn't, seem, seems, exist, exists, appears, make, makes, show, shows, occur, occurs, get, got, went, put, some, many, most, that, very, extremely, totally, completely, wholly, utterly, quite, rather, slightly, fairly, somewhat, and suddenly.

KimJo · Jul 11, 2005

I tend to overuse "that" but since I write in first person I figure maybe it's just the way the character talks. (It gives me a good excuse, anyway.)

In readthroughs of my writing I've occasionally found sentences I don't remember writing and marvel at them. But only occasionally.

Maestrowork- ah, but what's the ultimate question?

GPatten · Jul 11, 2005

I forgot #2
I go Wow all the time. Every day I find out I have a long way to go.

KTC · Jul 11, 2005

1. I slay my thats all the time. Then I promise to be more liberal with my thats. Then, the next time I edit, I slay all my thats!

2. I do sometimes read my stuff like it's the first time I'm reading it and I find myself thinking, "Wow!" Almost like I can't believe I wrote it because it's new to me, as though I were asleep when the creative demons in my head wrote it. It's not always a good wow, but a lot of the time it is. It's like when the nerd guy in The Breakfast Club punches his own arm in salute to himself after reading the essay he wrote to hand in to the teacher at the end of the movie. But, damn, it's hard to pat your own back, isn't it?!

loquax · Jul 11, 2005

I've always been a little bit confused about 'not using the passive'. There are many, many instances where it has to be used. I don't know how else to write it.

e.g. "The house was big." What am I supposed to write? "The house looked big"? What's wrong with was?!

edfrzr · Jul 11, 2005

I leave in "that" in all the dialogue. It's just the way people talk. I meant more in the narrative.

Plus, I rarely marvel at ALL I create; usually only a sentence or a thought here and there.

DragonHeart · Jul 11, 2005

#1: It's not necessary, but it's up to personal preference in my opinion.

#2: I read my writing all the time and say "Wow, I can't believe people call it good writing!" I'm very self-critical and I have yet to impress myself with anything I've put to paper/computer screen.

~DragonHeart~

cwfgal · Jul 11, 2005

1. I always do, but I tend to use "that" unnecessarily a lot. I have a bunch of pet words I do a hunt-down-and-kill for, such as "moment." My characters have far too many moments.

2. Can't say I've ever had a "wow!" moment(<---see!) but I have found a phrase or two that made me stop and think, "Hm, that's not half bad." (Note: 2 occurences of "that" in previous sentence but I'd let them both stay.)

Beth

hpoppink · Jul 11, 2005

1. Read it out loud. Which sounds better? Write it that way.

2. No way. I'm a big believer in crappy first drafts.

Ronda · Jul 11, 2005

1. That depends - but that is generally used much more often than necessary.
2. I am often amazed with the typos I've missed and sometimes I have indeed read something in my work and thought I was asleep at the computer when that gem came out, because I don't recall writing it.

As for "was" - that could easily be a whole other thread! I would consider "the house was big" to be an acceptable sentence, but bland and non-descriptive. "The house made me feel like a pee beside a watermelon" gives a feeling of size (though it probably isn't the feeling you were going for).

A friend of mine wrote this excellent scene about a tornado in her book, but one pitiful sentence stood out. "Peter was terrified." Brought that scene to a dead stop. BORING! I suggested she show his terror through his actions.

Ronda

edfrzr · Jul 11, 2005

Why would you be peeing beside a watermelon? The image that would make you feel small there are far too graphic.

Garpy · Jul 11, 2005

I think the problem with aggressively culling passive words like 'that' and 'was' everytime you see them, is that you will end up squirting out a load of awkward verbal diarrhea each time you attempt to restate the sentence....

'the house was big'
'the house felt large enough to engulf her, like a watermelon might a pip.'

...and quite often, you'll find yourself crafting a really clumsy metaphor in the process.

My advice on passives are....if the sentence sounds right as you read it, then it is, no matter how many literary rules you might have broken.

MadScientistMatt · Jul 11, 2005

loquax said:
I've always been a little bit confused about 'not using the passive'. There are many, many instances where it has to be used. I don't know how else to write it.

e.g. "The house was big." What am I supposed to write? "The house looked big"? What's wrong with was?!

That is not passive voice at all. It simply uses "was." Passive often uses "was" when written in the past tense.

A true example of passive voice would be something like, "The house was lived in by James." Which could be rewritten as, "James was living in the house," which is not passive, even though it does retain the word "was".

On the other hand, in some cases, there are some viable substitutes for "The house was big." In some cases, the original sentance is just fine as it is. But other ways of telling it could add other details or characterization. Here are some other possible ways an author could convey the size of the house, casting "big" in different terms and different lights.

James lived in a big house on Millionaire's Row.
Even though it was a large house, it seemed barely adequate for a family with ten children.
I couldn't believe how bloody f'ing big his house was. What the hell did he need a house the size of York Minster for, anyway?
"You bought a new house? Congratulations." "Yeah, it's five thousand square feet. And it has a pool, two acre lawn, and you won't believe the things the previous owner threw in..."

zarch · Jul 11, 2005

Yep

You're right, Matt. Folks should realize that past tense and passive voice aren't the same thing. Your explanation was a good one! Passive voice is almost never acceptable, for it creates awkwardness and wordiness.

The chair was thrown by me.
I threw the chair.

The second sentence is easily the better one.

Nateskate · Jul 11, 2005

I have my own "that" cemetary. I don't delete them all. You just can't do that. Or else "you just can't do", and it wouldn't be the same.

loquax · Jul 11, 2005

I must admit, I did kind of already know that. But I just ran Roger Carlson's passive voice highlighter on my work (which is fantastic, by the way) and it scared the crap out of me. Cheers for the clarification though - I could have easily messed up my whole WIP if I'd have taken it seriously.

And I was just using 'the house was big' as an example. I know there are a few duds around here, so I won't blame you for thinking that it may very well have been an example of how I write. I have an excerpt here, if anyone's interested (although I think that the first sentence might use the passive voice... oh well).

brinkett · Jul 11, 2005

loquax said:
I must admit, I did kind of already know that. But I just ran Roger Carlson's passive voice highlighter on my work (which is fantastic, by the way) and it scared the crap out of me. Cheers for the clarification though - I could have easily messed up my whole WIP if I'd have taken it seriously.

If you use Word, its passive sentence grammar check is quite good.

loquax · Jul 11, 2005

brinkett said:
If you use Word, its passive sentence grammar check is quite good.

How do you get to that? It sounds good.

brinkett · Jul 11, 2005

For Word 2003:

1. Go to Tools->Spelling and Grammar...
2. Press Options...
3. Under the Grammar section, press Settings...
4. You'll see there's a ton of stuff you can check/uncheck, and one is "passive sentences".

reph · Jul 11, 2005

loquax said:
I have an excerpt here, if anyone's interested (although I think that the first sentence might use the passive voice... oh well).

The first and third sentences of the first paragraph do use passive.

Thorough discussions of what sentences are written in passive and what sentences are written in active, and how such sentences are to be evaluated, have been seen on this forum. You might be helped by a search for them so that they can be read by you.

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