So, I have this friend...

Regan Leigh · Sep 27, 2009

And let's say that the friend is having issues with her WIP. This friend had a 175,000 word first draft for a literary romance. Said friend knew this was a bit much, so she's been editing. Now my her novel is smaller and tighter. However, the chapter breaks are non-existent now. They don't make sense where they were originally.

Any advice on how to break the novel up after such a large edit? Has anyone else gone through this?

Sage · Sep 27, 2009

Could we have a more specific example of your, uh, friend's chapter break problem? I don't think I'm fully understanding what happened. Is it that she polished out some crucial scenes and they were needed to make the next scene make sense?

Sarah Christine · Sep 27, 2009

Well, friend, I had a 160k YA novel that I had to cut down, but the way I ended up reducing the bulk was by cutting it in half...ish...because it was already as tight as a Victorian corset.

When you say the chapter breaks are non-existent, do you mean it all flows together and you have no scene breaks whatsoever? Just one ginormous hunk of literature? Er, your friend, I mean?

Regan Leigh · Sep 27, 2009

Sage said:
Could we have a more specific example of your, uh, friend's chapter break problem? I don't think I'm fully understanding what happened. Is it that she polished out some crucial scenes and they were needed to make the next scene make sense?

Yeah, okay in MY WIP, I've stripped some many various scenes that it's pretty much just flowing together with no breaks anymore. I can't use the old breaks cause some chapters would be 20 pages and some would be 3.

I didn't know if there was a good way to organize myself in order to break it up. Does that make sense?

Sage · Sep 27, 2009

I personally have no problem with varying chapter lengths, but if you're wanting to avoid chapters with 20 pages and chapters with 3 pages, look at why you consider that a chapter break. Within the 20 page chapter, is there a natural place to break it up (switch POV or location or, "Hey, this would make a sorta cliffhanger")? In the three page chapters, does it make as much sense to put a scene break there instead of a chapter break?

Sarah Christine · Sep 27, 2009

I'd have that problem a lot. Simply what I did was picked a reasonable page limit (between seven and ten) and didn't stray one way or the other. What I'd do is find a place where I can cut it if not for the added affect of drama (such as, she turns a corner and something happens...end chapter). I know this works with YA, and I used to hate it when I was a teen because I'd have to keep reading! Never found a good place to stop.

I don't know, is that possible with yours?

charlotte49ers · Sep 27, 2009

I would get a target in mind for chapter length and look around those points for places that would work for breaks. They may be different totally from the original, but you kind of have to look at it like a whole new thing, kwim?

This could be totally crap advice though. lol

Regan Leigh · Sep 27, 2009

Hm, I like the idea of trying to stick to a certain avg number of pages, if only to make it more reader friendly. However, I do have some scenes that are fairly long compared to others, but maybe I can go from a limit of pages and attempt to break it at a suspenseful moment. I've been debating whether I should print the whole thing out and physically look for those breaks, or do it while editing the content. (As I go kind of thing. I'm still editing.)

charlotte49ers · Sep 27, 2009

Yeah, I don't mean literally "hit the 20 page marker, find spot to end scene," but more as a guide kind of deal.

And I wouldn't worry about chapter breaks until you get completely through with the purging. Then you can deal with it...once you know what is going and what is staying.

Sarah Christine · Sep 27, 2009

Depending on how far ahead you are in editing, maybe you should finish the first round, let it sit for awhile, then pick it back up and specifically focus on breaking things up. Then I guess you'd have to let it sit for awhile again, and reread for finalizing and making sure everything runs as smooth as water.

If you've just started editing, then you can focus on both at once, I suppose. Think that works?

Regan Leigh · Sep 27, 2009

Yeah, that makes sense. Plus, after betas get their hands on it, I may end up cutting more so... I suppose I should wait.

I had been staring at it and suddenly panicked when I realized that I hadn't even tried to make it into any new breaks that make sense.

Thanks for your help. Any other ideas are welcome!

Sage · Sep 27, 2009

I find it helps me to print it out, but that goes for all types of editing, actually. Whether massive cuts or reorganizing or just tightening it by cutting out words here or there.

Sarah Christine · Sep 27, 2009

You could always get your betas to help you out in that aspect too. Good luck!

jennontheisland · Sep 27, 2009

I'm all for the average chapter length. But the end of a scene isn't always the best place for a break. I mean, it's the end, something is done, wrapped up, and the reader is momentarily satisfied. Now, a chapter break right at an important point in a scene, a mini-climax, if you will, that's gonna keep the reader moving. And don't write off mid-conversation breaks either.

Regan Leigh · Sep 27, 2009

jennontheisland said:
I'm all for the average chapter length. But the end of a scene isn't always the best place for a break. I mean, it's the end, something is done, wrapped up, and the reader is momentarily satisfied. Now, a chapter break right at an important point in a scene, a mini-climax, if you will, that's gonna keep the reader moving. And don't write off mid-conversation breaks either.

Oh, good point cause I probably would. I need to look at it more creatively.

Bufty · Sep 27, 2009

A chapter can end anywhere - preferably with a 'must find out what happens next' question in the reader's mind.

job · Sep 27, 2009

<raises hand>

Let me put in a word for chapter breaks where they belong.

The scene ends. Last word. Close of action.
Break.
Chapter Heading.
Open in a new place/time/POV/conversation/action/characters.

Some chapters three pages long. Some twenty.

I think readers won't mind. Really. They're not watching this kind of thing.

Regan Leigh · Sep 27, 2009

Hm, I almost want to do a poll. Chapter breaks planned by pages or by scene length? Hm...

kct webber · Sep 27, 2009

Having some chapters three pages long and some twenty pages long is not a problem.

kaitie · Sep 27, 2009

I agree that chapter length should be determined not by the number of pages, but by ideas. I don't know how you have the story structured, but in general the chapter ended at a particular place because of the idea contained within. Generally, as said above, there should be an ending to it that leaves the reader wanting to read more. I know I wrote with a particular length in mind, but some ended up much shorter, and one much longer. Such is life. I at least have never looked at a book and said, "Wow, this chapter is only 3 pages! This author sucks!"

If the cut scenes change the division of ideas, cliffhangers, etc., then by all means change them. Otherwise my vote is to leave them varied. If it really bothers you, I would suggest trying to add the number of chapters. Maybe add one at a scene break, but personally I see no problem with this. Then again haha, I might know nothing.

charlotte49ers · Sep 27, 2009

My personal opinion is that there better be a good reason for a short, abrupt chapter. I do get distracted by it because chapter breaks make me stop internally, as well. So if I'm reading along, getting into the story, then there is a three page chapter because the car ride is over, or whatever, I'm left thinking...well that sucks. Not the author, not the book, but I think short chapters should serve a creative purpose. Just my 2 cents.

James D. Macdonald · Sep 27, 2009

1. Remove all the chapter breaks.
2. Print out the manuscript.
3. While wearing a beret and a tight black tee-shirt, sit in a coffee shop with your manuscript. Drink espresso while reading the manuscript. Every time you come to a place that would make a nice chapter break, draw a line across the page at the place where the narrative naturally breaks. Insert a nice blue Post-It (TM) note flagging that page so you can find it easily later.
4. Go home, and insert the chapter breaks in your electronic file.

If you do not have a beret, a black tee-shirt, or a handy coffee shop, it is hopeless. Gaze moodily into a river for hours on end, contemplating the emptiness of the universe.

Regan Leigh · Sep 27, 2009

I'm loving all the points being made. Good discussion.

James D. Macdonald said:
1. Remove all the chapter breaks.
2. Print out the manuscript.
3. While wearing a beret and a tight black tee-shirt, sit in a coffee shop with your manuscript. Drink espresso while reading the manuscript. Every time you come to a place that would make a nice chapter break, draw a line across the page at the place where the narrative naturally breaks. Insert a nice blue Post-It (TM) note flagging that page so you can find it easily later.
4. Go home, and insert the chapter breaks in your electronic file.

If you do not have a beret, a black tee-shirt, or a handy coffee shop, it is hopeless. Gaze moodily into a river for hours on end, contemplating the emptiness of the universe.

LMAO

Wonderful response, thank you.

Caitlin Black · Sep 27, 2009

Just thought I'd mention that 2 of my favourite authors don't keep their chapters all the same length.

Douglas Adams in Hitchhikers has some chapters that are 20 pages and some that are only 1 or 2 pages.

Terry Pratchett (as far as I know) doesn't use chapters at all.

Meanwhile, I'm not going to say that you should follow suit, if only because I use chapters that are a certain length and try to be consistent, so if I can't take the advice then I shouldn't be giving it either...

Oh well.

Regan Leigh · Sep 27, 2009

Cliff Face said:
Just thought I'd mention that 2 of my favourite authors don't keep their chapters all the same length.

Douglas Adams in Hitchhikers has some chapters that are 20 pages and some that are only 1 or 2 pages.

Terry Pratchett (as far as I know) doesn't use chapters at all.

Meanwhile, I'm not going to say that you should follow suit, if only because I use chapters that are a certain length and try to be consistent, so if I can't take the advice then I shouldn't be giving it either...

Oh well.

Ah, you won me over with that one.

So, I have this friend...

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